Repeal of the Instruction against Gays

[Barbkw]

No one with nonchaste (or noncelibate) inclinations regardless of sexual orientation are to be admitted to seminary or religious life, period.

Yes, correct.

Neither SSA or heterosexual.

 

[LemonAndLime]

We’ve been through the ages before. Four-year olds comprised fewer than 1% of the victims of the priest scandals, per the John Jay report. More than half (53%) were over 13 years of age.

See Table 4.3.2 VICTIM’S AGE AT FIRST INSTANCE OF ABUSE under Part 4.3 Characteristics of children who alleged sexual abuse by Catholic priests

usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/

From the summary…

I will not particpate in this debate. I would encourage everyone who likes to trot out the “pedophile” argument to look at the Jay study and think about what really happened, regardless of what conclusions you draw regarding the fitness or unfitness of homosexuals to serve in whatever capacity.

I’m not talking about the Priest scandal, please re-read my post and point out where I said I was referring exclusively to that. I was talking about general comments people make.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I think that you are correct about always being skeptical about scientific facts that could be biased by non-scientific reasons. I would also add that psychology is not a science, maybe there are a very limited branches in psychology (e.g. some aspects of neuropsychology) that could be called scientific. However, even if it not a science it is a discipline and I think that your approach still makes sense to me.

Exactly, nothing is ever proven in psychology.

 

[Barbkw]

The outside world may refer to the child abuse in the Catholic Church as pedophilia.

The truth however, as the John Jay study shows, is that the child abuse mainly centered around pederasty.

Adult noncelibate SSA men who groomed male teens toward male on male sexual acts.

 

[JHow]

I’m not talking about the Priest scandal, please re-read my post and point out where I said I was referring exclusively to that. I was talking about general comments people make.

Sorry. I sort of assumed the scandal was a subtext to the discussion. I don’t suppose the instruction was wholly un-prompted.

In general, however, I agree with you that pedophilia does not equal homosexuality.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Sorry. I sort of assumed the scandal was a subtext to the discussion. I don’t suppose the instruction was wholly un-prompted.

In general, however, I agree with you that pedophilia does not equal homosexuality.

I apologise also, I didn’t make it clear I was talking about it in general. Sorry aswell if I appeared sharp, I am watching the TV at the same time so am trying to be as short as I can.

I think most people agree that paedophilia does not = homosexuality, but sometimes the lines are blurred for some people.

 

[archangel04]

So you are saying that homosexuality and paedophilia are one and the same?

Here’s an interesting fact. Most paedophiles are white men married to WOMEN.

Now what do you have to say about that?

I will not stand for CAF members stating, on completely groundless “facts”, that homosexuality and paedophilia are the same or potentially lead to each other. It does not reflect the actual facts. If a man was to sexually abuse a 4 year old girl does that make it a “typical” heterosexual act? No? Well, it’s not okay then to suggest that a male abusing a male 4 year old as homosexual. Both suggestions are unfair and inflammatory.

Here we go! In a lot of research that was done by the body of Bishops, it showed that the majority of boys molested were already post puberty. Now Here in America someone can be 25 and be in a relationship with someone of age 18 and be legal. This does not mean that the body has entered into adulthood at age 18. Most pre-teens reach that around the age of 12. There is a lot of research already on this, at the moment I don’t have the time to link you the information.

 

[archangel04]

Hmm, I shall look into it, thank you. Although I must add that for them to be broadcast on EWTN they must agree with Church teaching. I would be very suspicious of a scientific fact being broadcasted on a channel with a vested interest in one result.

So science must be seperated from religion? Last time I checked without God science leads to dead ends and will never get the fullness. But with Faith, you will get the fullness when it comes to reason & logic.

 

[Sonic]

Hmm, I shall look into it, thank you. Although I must add that for them to be broadcast on EWTN they must agree with Church teaching. I would be very suspicious of a scientific fact being broadcasted on a channel with a vested interest in one result.

I understand what you are saying. I will say this… anybody that knows F.r Groeschel knows he doesn’t play politics with his work. He tells things like he see’s them, and that includes being critical of both clergy and psychology.

Plus, he’s a New Yorker, which makes him a-okay in book.

I’m currently looking for the show he made his statements, but you can do a search here for any of his shows.

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/intro.asp

 

[laszlo]

This belongs to the same category, as the Church forbids close interaction between priests and nuns too. Too much temptation. Priest, starting with the seminary and many times later live in community, homosexuals together would be excessively tempted.

 

[dans0622]

I hope and pray that the Vatican repeals the Instruction on persons with homosexual orientation in view of entering the Seminary and the Holy Orders.

I think its unfair to equate pedo with gays as what was done by this instruction.

Hello bluealtec,

I presume you are speaking of the following Instruction:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

There is no mention of “pedo,” and certainly not any such “equation.” Perhaps there is another document you are thinking of or perhaps you have been misled.

Dan

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Priest, starting with the seminary and many times later live in community, homosexuals together would be excessively tempted.

Before we deal with this…

Can you provide a source from an actual Church document for the following statement.

This belongs to the same category, as the Church forbids close interaction between priests and nuns too. Too much temptation.

 

[bluealtec]

Why would anyone want a repeal of an instruction from the Holy See? This can only be an indication of disobedient on our parts, asking such a thing. If it’s correct and holy, why ask for it to be repealed? This isn’t a political platform or a Member of Parliament’s opinion here, but the wisdom of a great and holy Pope.

I ask this question because I am deeply hurt by this Instruction. I am gay and I believe in the teachings of the Church on Homosexuality. And because of this Instruction my chances of entering the serminary (which i am deeply discerning for) is zero.

 

[PatrickSebast]

I ask this question because I am deeply hurt by this Instruction. I am gay and I believe in the teachings of the Church on Homosexuality. And because of this Instruction my chances of entering the serminary (which i am deeply discerning for) is zero.

Have you gone and talked to your diocese’s vocational director about this? You will likely find that seminaries are far more willing to consider candidates with same sex attractions than you think. In addition vocational directors can help a lot with your discernment.

 

[Sonic]

I ask this question because I am deeply hurt by this Instruction. I am gay and I believe in the teachings of the Church on Homosexuality. And because of this Instruction my chances of entering the serminary (which i am deeply discerning for) is zero.

Bluealtec, if you are chaste and not participating in the “Gay” lifestyle, then you are not Gay. You simply have or believe you have an inclination to same-sex attraction.

What I suggest you do, is get a copy of Uniformity with God’s Will by St. Alphonsius de Liguori. I think it will help you in your discernment for the priesthood and help you sort out your feelings concerning this.

 

[PatrickSebast]

Sources?

At this point that would be getting WAY off the topic the TC is discussing and I don’t really have the energy to source something that can be found through google searches and the DSM IV (primary psychology manual for the US).

 

[Sonic]

At this point that would be getting WAY off the topic the TC is discussing and I don’t really have the energy to source something that can be found through google searches and the DSM IV (primary psychology manual for the US).

It’s cool Patrick. I was just interested, but I understand. I don’t always have the time to post information either. I will respect your post (especially since I wasn’t trying to enter into a debate). I will say that I don’t think your post contradicts mine. I think it’s just a matter of how you interpret data and we may have misunderstood each other.

 

[Barbkw]

I ask this question because I am deeply hurt by this Instruction. I am gay and I believe in the teachings of the Church on Homosexuality. And because of this Instruction my chances of entering the serminary (which i am deeply discerning for) is zero.

Why do you call yourself “gay”? That is only a label that noncelibate homosexuals use to advance agendas.

For Catholics practicing chastity, there is no concern about sexual preference.

 

[laszlo]

I ask this question because I am deeply hurt by this Instruction. I am gay and I believe in the teachings of the Church on Homosexuality. And because of this Instruction my chances of entering the serminary (which i am deeply discerning for) is zero.

How can you distinguish between your desire to serve God, and the desire to live in closeness to the objects of your sexuality? How do you expect to keep your chastity in this closeness with that objects?

Heterosexual priests are not allowed to live in the same quarters as women due to the temptation. Why should the Church repeal the principle of avoiding temptation as much as possible?

 

[Barbkw]

How can you distinguish between your desire to serve God, and the desire to live in closeness to the objects of your sexuality? How do you expect to keep your chastity in this closeness with that objects?

Chastity is a growth process. The longer one practices, the stronger a person becomes. Fidelity to God is the key.