Repirations?

[roanoker]

What do you mean, we’re responsible for their mass poverty? That country was a total mess before we ever went over there. Sadam Hueissan(sic) was responsible. We’ll leave it in much better condition than we found it. Also, don’t forget the purple fingers at their election time. They hadn’t seen that for generations. Roanoker

 

[bengal_fan]

Is there a source for this?

this is not a master’s thesis. why must he give a source for everything when every source on the issue can be put into contention (just listen to the talking heads throwing out different opinions everyday).

we know that under hussein, most people had electricity and water. their economy was stable. there was horrible torture to those who opposed the government but protection provided to all religions (so long as they did not oppose the government). he was an evil man that we helped bring to power. so whatever evil he did, our hands are somewhat dirty from it.

we also know that since our invasion, there has not been regular water or electricity (blackouts are common). these situations are getting better. we have rebuilt many schools that were destroyed as well as other buildings (of course we were the ones who destroyed them so we probably should rebuild them).

we do know that many people are living in poverty and the numbers offered by the u.n. cannot have changed too much in a year. even a year in the u.s. doesn’t change too much. unemployment might go down a few points or the stock market might surge, but the common people don’t see the benefits of that stuff until a while after it happens. so even if something major has taken place (which i have not seen or heard about in the news) in the iraq economy, those people who were in poverty last year are most likely still in poverty today.

even if you disagree with the exact numbers, why don’t we try to address the questions raised? just say, “i’m not sure about your numbers but…”

the catholic church as well as every other major Christian denomination (except southern baptist) opposed us going into iraq and said it was not a “just” war. our country went anyway and has completely torn families and lives apart. some are very glad we did what we did. they hated saddam (probably rightly so) and were glad to see him go. they did hail us as liberators. many were not so glad to see us coming. the head of the iraqi Christian church came to america before our invasion and asked us not to come.

so do we owe the iraqi people anything? yes.
i have no idea how that works though.

 

[bengal_fan]

What do you mean, we’re responsible for their mass poverty? That country was a total mess before we ever went over there. Sadam Hueissan(sic) was responsible. We’ll leave it in much better condition than we found it. Also, don’t forget the purple fingers at their election time. They hadn’t seen that for generations. Roanoker

there was not mass poverty in iraq before our invasion. it was not a total mess, it was a functioning (albeit cruel at times and corrupt) government. they had water, electricity, schools, religious freedom, and an active economy.

they also had fear of their government because any opposition to it would bring torture and death to them and their families. they had a horrible man as their leader (one we put in power in the first place remember).

there might have been legitimate reasons for us to go to iraq, but nearly all of Christianity as well as most of the world disagreed and opposed our invasion. now, there is poverty (not there before our invasion on any scale comparable to where it is now), lack of resources, government in disarray, and terrorists (not there before, or at least not operating out of iraq).

it looks like we’ve done more harm than good and now we are trying to fix our mistake. i think it’s good to try to fix our mistakes, but when does it come time to realize we can’t fix it alone or at all?

 

[vz71]

even if you disagree with the exact numbers, why don’t we try to address the questions raised? just say, “i’m not sure about your numbers but…”

Because I like to base my responses on facts not emotions.

Without the sources (the current sources), one cannot be certain the ‘facts’ are true at all.
Nor can we be certain that our actions are even the right thing to do without solid facts.

 

[vz71]

it looks like we’ve done more harm than good and now we are trying to fix our mistake.

We should have left Hussein in power???

 

[mlchance]

we know that under hussein, most people had electricity and water. their economy was stable…

The Hussein regime regularly displaced thousands and cut off water and electricity services to regions deemed disloyal. The economy was not stable. Tens of thousands died from starvation and disease because the Hussein regime siphoned relief monies and materials into private accounts and to support the army.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[bengal_fan]

The Hussein regime regularly displaced thousands and cut off water and electricity services to regions deemed disloyal. The economy was not stable. Tens of thousands died from starvation and disease because the Hussein regime siphoned relief monies and materials into private accounts and to support the army.

– Mark L. Chance.

okay, i’ll play the same game…

sources?

this was not the assessment of the bishop of the iraqi Christian church

 

[Tantum_ergo]

A quick Google found this article from U.S.A. Today, dated 2004 (AFTER the start of the Iraq war); the important thing to note is that any information about the country’s economy under Saddam is going to be as correct in a 2004 article as it would be in a 2008 article, as he would have been ‘out of power’ before 2004.

usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-28-iraq-economy_x.htm

 

[markomalley]

-]Maybe we should force Iran to pay reparations: as they sponsored a large percentage of the (so-called) insurgents who intentionally destroyed the civil works that were being sponsored by the US (to rebuild the country). Or maybe we should force the oil states (who provide much of the financing for Al Qaeda – who sponsored another large percentage). Or maybe we should force reparations from a large part of the former Baath party (the Fedayyin), who sponsored the remainder.

Maybe, in fact, we should force reparations from the left in this country, both in Congress and in the media, whose consistent, public, and very loud navel gazing provided a psychological boost to the insurgents…inspiring them to continue to destroy the country./-]

But then none of the above would be self-loathing, so the above comments are not allowable on this board (thus they’re struck through)

 

[markomalley]

Oh, and one other point: prior to the invasion, there were about 200,000 children a year dying in Iraq, due to a lack of proper health care and unsanitary conditions. This was caused by the UN-sponsored sanctions on that country (always approved by vast, vast majorities of the Security Council). The horrible conditions there inspired the oil-for-food program…which provided oil for Europe and lined Saddam’s pockets (thus, the continuing construction projects on the royal palaces while people were dying of disease).

So please don’t bore me with the “It’s the US’ fault” argument.

 

[mlchance]

okay, i’ll play the same game…

sources?

An oldie but a goodie: www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB167/13.pdf

More:

moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

Check on Hussein’s 1993 campaign against Shia Muslims. Then actually do some reading about how much of the recent infrastructure damage isn’t related to what happened during the war; instead, it is the result of so-called insurgents sabotaging reconstruction efforts.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Scottgun]

considering we are responsiable for the mass poverty, can I ask why?

All I’m doing is distinguishing between reparations in the strict sense of “repairing”, and the other sense like punative WWI reparations in which the US would declare itself guilty. Since a call for the latter sense would be purely polemical, the US can’t seriously entertain it.

 

[bengal_fan]

An oldie but a goodie: www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB167/13.pdf

More:

moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

Check on Hussein’s 1993 campaign against Shia Muslims. Then actually do some reading about how much of the recent infrastructure damage isn’t related to what happened during the war; instead, it is the result of so-called insurgents sabotaging reconstruction efforts.

– Mark L. Chance.

well, the first source states he had WMD’s. they weren’t there. i did admit that he was a bad guy and people were repressed under his regime. but that could be said for a hundred other countries in the world. the country did have electricity. they did have water. he did keep some people from those resources. he did torture and kill many of his own countrymen. these are all things i have said. but we have done the same thing. we have killed numerous iraqi’s (many civilians have died because of our bombing). electricity and water are unpredictably available. there was no al queda operating out of iraq, now there is. he was not a threat to the region, now iraq is.
hindsight is 20/20, but we went because of the oil. our ultimate goal was not to liberate the iraqi’s. the iraqi people (for the most part) did not want us to come there. we have destroyed that country and are attempting to rebuild it in our own image. how arrogant is that?
we were wrong for going in. are we wrong for staying? i don’t know. all i know is that our reasons for going were proven untrue and now we are pulling the humanitarian card. i agree that something needed to be done, but something needed to be done in rwanda. something needs to be done in darfur. why aren’t we there? no oil.
we are not the hand of God. if you are catholic, you believe that God’s representative on earth is the church with the pope as it’s head. that representative opposed our invasion of iraq. are you saying the church didn’t care about the humanitarian violations of saddam’s regime? i’m sure you aren’t. bottom line is, we were wrong and we do need to make ammends somehow. i just don’t know what that even looks like.

 

[vz71]

hindsight is 20/20, but we went because of the oil.

Hence oil is now topping $100.00/barrel

The facts speak otherwise.