Report: Some Cardinals Want Pope Francis to Resign, Fear Schism Worse Than The Reformation

[Ginny89]

No offense but you said a lot for someone waiting to comment.

Touche! But the much I said had nothing to do with Cardinals allegedly pressuring a pope to resign. I don’t even know if that is legal! My guess is that it may not be. It is one thing to openly and frankly criticize the pope for some imprudence or failure here and there but I really dont know if anyone can say to the pope “you must resign!” That seems like something else entirely. So NOW I have commented on the OP topic directly, thanks to you , but before my comment was a general one about the current crisis and not this reported move.

 

[twf]

What exactly is so terrible that Pope Francis changed?

Allow those who continue to have sex with someone who is not their spouse to receive communion…
at least that’s the rhetoric. The reality is very complex…though the controversy is real.

 

[Ginny89]

Do you think that Pope Francis is following Christ’s Gospels?

Even if I had a special revelation that the pope follows the Gospel absolutely perfectly, I would still not place my trust in him. When I am obedient to the pope or the bishop or the confessor, I am not placing my trust in them but in Christ. I obey not because I think they are very fine holy people but because I believe Jesus is God and that he wills or commands it. I am a Christian because I am betting on Jesus, not Catholic clergy.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I will wait until this report is confirmed to be true before commenting directly on the matter at hand. I have my doubts because I wonder how such a serious plan could find its way to a secular paper before others so close to the church are aware of it? In any case, prayer is the best response. Whatever happens, my thought has always been that it would take a miracle to undo the effects of the problems that have arisen: something to fully restore the confidence of those whose faith has been rocked not just by this but by the sexual abuse scandal. I pray something happens ala Fatima, to aid the faith of many weak souls like me! that the church is and always will be the pillar and foundation of truth.

I agree. I don’t trust this source. But a few things are interesting - the main one being that the group of cardinals who reportedly have misgivings and are pushing resignation are not the conservative cardinals who are fighting AL (defending orthodoxy IMHO). This lends a little credibility to the rumor to my mind. The conservatives do have such a hard time with revolt or rebellion. Very contrary to their understanding of how the Church hierarchy works. This has caused me consternation long before now. And Francis is on the edge of schism with AL - was that the plan? Doubt it. So how would cardinals who wanted this kind of modernization to take hold through this pontificate respond? (see Trump / Flynn )

Overall, I have a harder time believing that these kinds of ideas are not floating around than that they are. I will be surprised if this story does not develop, foundations emerge. In this day of e-news, social media, there are just no more blackouts due to respect, ethical barriers - the Church is exposed. I struggle to see this as necessarily a bad thing. Not that ethics should ever be abandoned of course. My point being, I think things like this leak out first through less responsible, ethical sources. Others shy away from airing it. (Perhaps in an effort to resolve this confusion and lack of cohesion in the Church by other more peaceable private means).

I am sorry to say it, but I think the Curia, Vatican, could be in quite a state of corruption and disarray - after years of neglect, power games by opposing interests. It is entirely possible that not even there does anyone really know what’s up. Again, to believe otherwise to me is harder.

 

[TMC]

Allow those who continue to have sex with someone who is not their spouse to receive communion…
at least that’s the rhetoric. The reality is very complex…though the controversy is real.

This is a gross distortion of the issue. The controversy is over whether the divorced and remarried may be readmitted to the sacraments under certain conditions.

 

[Ginny89]

I agree. I don’t trust this source. But a few things are interesting - the main one being that the group of cardinals who reportedly have misgivings and are pushing resignation are not the conservative cardinals who are fighting AL (defending orthodoxy IMHO). This lends a little credibility to the rumor to my mind. The conservatives do have such a hard time with revolt or rebellion. Very contrary to their understanding of how the Church hierarchy works. This has caused me consternation long before now. And Francis is on the edge of schism with AL - was that the plan? Doubt it. So how would cardinals who wanted this kind of modernization to take hold through this pontificate respond? (see Trump / Flynn )

Overall, I have a harder time believing that these kinds of ideas are not floating around than that they are. I will be surprised if this story does not develop, foundations emerge. In this day of e-news, social media, there are just no more blackouts due to respect, ethical barriers - the Church is exposed. I struggle to see this as necessarily a bad thing. Not that ethics should ever be abandoned of course. My point being, I think things like this leak out first through less responsible, ethical sources. Others shy away from airing it. (Perhaps in an effort to resolve this confusion and lack of cohesion in the Church by other more peaceable private means).

I am sorry to say it, but I think the Curia, Vatican, could be in quite a state of corruption and disarray - after years of neglect, power games by opposing interests. It is entirely possible that not even there does anyone really know what’s up. Again, to believe otherwise to me is harder.

You make some very good points. I agree especially that I don’t see a Cardinal Burke telling a pope to resign. I just don’t see it. But people who would easily set aside Jesus’ clear teaching on marriage would certainly also have the audacity to demand resignation from a pope…just saying. We will soon see if there is any real substance to this story. My first instinct is to doubt it though.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Allow those who continue to have sex with someone who is not their spouse to receive communion…
at least that’s the rhetoric. The reality is very complex…though the controversy is real.

It’s tough for some people to see the Church break from a tradition, but I still feel that the authorities of the Church are being guided by Christ and changes are to be expected given our drastically changing world.

 

[FollowChrist34]

This is a gross distortion of the issue. The controversy is over whether the divorced and remarried may be readmitted to the sacraments under certain conditions.

That is just packaging. Red herring. What AL ushers into the Church on a ‘pastoral’ ‘mercy’ level is nothing short of revolution. It is a dawn of ‘discernment’ and ‘gradualism’ - personal conscience / peace with God in lieu of adherence to the teachings of the Gospel and the Church. The spirit of Vatican II on steroids. We go from Catholics to Unitarians in under 5 seconds.

 

[TMC]

That is just packaging. Red herring. What AL ushers into the Church on a ‘pastoral’ ‘mercy’ level is nothing short of revolution. It is a dawn of ‘discernment’ and ‘gradualism’ - personal conscience / peace with God in lieu of adherence to the teachings of the Gospel and the Church. The spirit of Vatican II on steroids. We go from Catholics to Unitarians in under 5 seconds.

Putting words in the Pope’s mouth and twisting his teachings is more than “packaging.” If you disagree with the teaching at least have the intellectual honesty to engage it directly, instead of attacking a straw man.

 

[Thomas_White]

This is a gross distortion of the issue. The controversy is over whether the divorced and remarried may be readmitted to the sacraments under certain conditions.

I don’t think so. It is larger than the controversy over AL. As I recall, there was for instance significant disagreement among conservatives about Laudato si and a reluctance to accept the teaching of this papal encyclical. I believe the real issue concerns the focus on the pastoral rather than on doctrine and the belief that practice can change without changing doctrine. This process has not been nearly as smooth as was apparently expected. I think there is likely something to what the article reports, but maybe only on the level of “office politics” where a number of employees typically are at odds with the new “boss”. I don’t know, but if so this is the classic “resistance to change” as seen within nearly any organization.

 

[FollowChrist34]

The problem is why are most Catholics, and everyone else, so glued to the media? This is the Tyranny of the Urgent. It’s bad enough when we lurch towards relatively credible sources for the Information of the Moment. But now even second and third hand sources will suffice.

When responsible parties don’t have anything to say, we lurch towards anyone. Various people are ordained by the Media as “Friends of the Pope”. Apparently this is a new title created in the Church hierarchy. Apparently papal infallibly carries over to them, too, at least when speaking ex cathedra to the media. And of course we gobble up the words of every press release, leaping to conclusions. Time for another CAF thread.

Can you imagine in Catholics would cut their media time in half, and spend that time in prayer and the bible?

I struggle with this too. The peace that withdrawing from the media and this controversy in the Church - especially during Lent - is very desirable. But is that what Lent is about? Is this what being a Christian is about? Shun tribulation? I think if we can get to a state of peace in the face of this crisis, we’re there. Peace of the cross, not the peace of quietism.

 

[Ginny89]

I don’t think so. It is larger than the controversy over AL. As I recall, there was for instance significant disagreement among conservatives about Laudato si and a reluctance to accept the teaching of this papal encyclical. I believe the real issue concerns the focus on the pastoral rather than on doctrine and the belief that practice can change without changing doctrine. This process has not been nearly as smooth as was apparently expected. I think there is likely something to what the article reports, but maybe only on the level of “office politics” where a number of employees typically are at odds with the new “boss”. I don’t know, but if so this is the classic “resistance to change” as seen within nearly any organization.

But according to the report, the “resistance” here reported is from the liberal group???

 

[FollowChrist34]

Putting words in the Pope’s mouth and twisting his teachings is more than “packaging.”

I’m just being discerning. I thought that was the preferred method these days anyway.

 

[Mongo]

This is a gross distortion of the issue. The controversy is over whether the divorced and remarried may be readmitted to the sacraments under certain conditions.

Different words, same thing. The church supposedly believes marriage is indissoluble and consequently there can be no second marriage after divorce. So twf’s statement is exactly what it is about.

 

[Mongo]

I don’t think so. It is larger than the controversy over AL. As I recall, there was for instance significant disagreement among conservatives about Laudato si and a reluctance to accept the teaching of this papal encyclical. I believe the real issue concerns the focus on the pastoral rather than on doctrine and the belief that practice can change without changing doctrine. This process has not been nearly as smooth as was apparently expected. I think there is likely something to what the article reports, but maybe only on the level of “office politics” where a number of employees typically are at odds with the new “boss”. I don’t know, but if so this is the classic “resistance to change” as seen within nearly any organization.

Practice can change as long as the change isn’t contrary to the doctrine. Praxis says more about belief than words.

 

[FollowChrist34]

But according to the report, the “resistance” here reported is from the liberal group???

Yes. I think this was all supposed to go much more smoothly - the Holy Spirit, singing kumbaya, love, peace. A new age of Enlightenment, discernment, development. Not unlike an Emerson essay, which can be quite beautiful and inspiring, no question.

emersoncentral.com/selfreliance.htm
Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string. Accept the place the divine providence has found for you, the society of your contemporaries, the connection of events. Great men have always done so, and confided themselves childlike to the genius of their age, betraying their perception that the absolutely trustworthy was seated at their heart, working through their hands, predominating in all their being. And we are now men, and must accept in the highest mind the same transcendent destiny; and not minors and invalids in a protected corner, not cowards fleeing before a revolution, but guides, redeemers, and benefactors, obeying the Almighty effort, and advancing on Chaos and the Dark.

 

[commenter]

I struggle with this too. The peace that withdrawing from the media and this controversy in the Church - especially during Lent - is very desirable. But is that what Lent is about? Is this what being a Christian is about? Shun tribulation? I think if we can get to a state of peace in the face of this crisis, we’re there. Peace of the cross, not the peace of quietism.

Yes, that is what Lent is about.
Assuming you are not a cardinal, the “information” from this 4th hand rumor does not inform your spiritual life at all. I would not shun “tribulation” if tribulation refers to my own difficulties and actions I can take in my own life, or my own ministry. Those are the only actions I should be concerned about, even during Lent.

This “news” report does not benefit my actions. It distracts. I should give it no attention during Lent - or any other times. I would not belittle as “quietism” if we make a decision to focus on our own actions and prayers. I also would not credit it as “peace of the cross” if I am one of those “enquiring minds who want to know”. (Old ad for National Enquirer).

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I think we Catholics need to be more awake and critical of media “reports” whether it be about Trump or Pope Francis. Rarely are even respected news outlets objective, factual or unbiased these last 10 years.

All the hall marks of manipulation and button pressing are present in the below link.

One of the more obvious ploys, and indications, of being “alternative fact bombed” is Internet news syndication. By that I mean when you get linked to an article and you try and find the actual originating sources. After 30 mins of searching on the topic you end up discovering a large number of newspapers or outlets all running verbatim the same alleged quotes, and even the commentary quotes seem to be verbatim. Then you notice they are also found on an increasingly growing list of more extreme or known tabloid news sites as well.

Then finally one realises that nobody has done any critical investigation or journalism on the issue at all…certainly not by the “respected” news outlet (eg Sunday Times in this case). In fact there has been a massive repetition of simply one individual’s views. In this case Antonio Socci who is a sworn adversary of Pope Francis for some years now. And he has no facts that can be verified at all, he names no names and simply assumes people agree with his Chicken Little spin re the mind numbing crisis in Catholic Church.

Well yes Pope Francis clearly has caused a crisis in Mr Socci’s set view of the Church but most of the laity who don’t write popularist books for a living or who don’t feel they are of manager level status in the Church are quite accepting of the navigation of the Barque of Peter by the person actually assigned to that role.

 

[Ginny89]

Praxis says more about belief than words.

Amen! Amen!

Jesus asked bluntly why people called him “Lord” but did not do as he commanded? In another place, the Bible mentions those who honour God with their lips but their hearts are “far from me”. I said once my own feeling about these latest controversies is that there are those in the hierarchy who aren’t really buying what the church is selling, they haven’t for a long time, but rather than be honest they manufacture a crisis literally from nothing. In 2007 there was no crisis about communion. Now there is talk of a schism. This was manufactured out of whole cloth by German bishops headed by Cardinals Marx and Kasper. Was any of this worth the trouble? May God have mercy on all involved. I just don’t understand.

You are right. You can sing all you want about what is true (doctrine) but it is what you do that ultimately tells the world what you really believe. The church should not allow herself to sing one song with her behaviour and another with her words. It is people who don’t really believe in their hearts who want a separation between practice and teaching.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Yes, that is what Lent is about.
Assuming you are not a cardinal, the “information” from this 4th hand rumor does not inform your spiritual life at all. I would not shun “tribulation” if tribulation refers to my own difficulties and actions I can take in my own life, or my own ministry. Those are the only actions I should be concerned about, even during Lent.

This “news” report does not benefit my actions. It distracts. I should give it no attention during Lent - or any other times. I would not belittle as “quietism” if we make a decision to focus on our own actions and prayers. I also would not credit it as “peace of the cross” I am one of those “enquiring minds who want to know”. (Old ad for National Enquirer).

My view on the matter:

The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who in time of moral crisis preserve their neutrality. – Dante