Republican senator announces support for gay marriage

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Notice that apart from a new creation pushed through by liberals, that only lasted for 6 months out of thousands and thousands of years of human history, every single marriage involves some configuration of husband and wife(ves).
Notice that apart from a new ideas pushed through by liberals, that only lasted for 200 out of thousands and thousands of years of human history, slavery has been ubiquitous in human societies.

For a long time only the King had a vote. Then some rich men got to vote as well. Women were not allowed to vote until much later. Public executions used to be common; they are no longer.

Merely because something was done one way in the past does not mean it is right. The past is not always a good guide to the present merely because it was in the past.
I want an answer to one question:
Every single world religion throughout history has said homosexual behavior is wrong.
False. The Bible is very strongly against the male temple prostitutes found in some ANE religions. I have also seen a mention of male temple prostitution in Mayan religion.
With the very, *very *recent exception of certain denominations changing their stance under political pressure.
False. The MCC did not change its stance under political pressure, it was explicitly set up from the start to cater for gays and lesbians.
No single society in the entire history of mankind, anywhere on earth, has had ‘marriage’ between two men or two women.
False. A number of societies have had same sex marriage, though most are non-Christian or pre-Christian and so do not feature largely in histories written by Christians.

Your question is based on these false premises and so fails.

rossum
 
Again, other states aren’t obligated to honor same sex marriages performed in California, either. That’s not a difference.
There is only a difference in states where same sex marriage has explicitly been excluded. Absent that, the marriage is recognised. For example, the couple in the Windsor case were married in Canada and their marriage was legally recognised in New York. It was not recognised in Federal law, hence the Supreme Court case. Hence part of the argument in that case is States’ rights versus Federal government rights. New York recognised the marriage while the IRS did not.

Some states do recognise same sex marriages from other states.

rossum
 
Notice that apart from a new ideas pushed through by liberals, that only lasted for 200 out of thousands and thousands of years of human history, slavery has been ubiquitous in human societies.
Bzzzt - wrong. Several cultures throughout history either did not have slavery, or defined “slavery” in such a way that modern hourly-wage workers would have been called slaves.
For a long time only the King had a vote. Then some rich men got to vote as well. Women were not allowed to vote until much later. Public executions used to be common; they are no longer.
Bzzzt - wrong. Again, multiple cultures throughout history have included women as part of their governmental structure, and many more did not have public executions.
Merely because something was done one way in the past does not mean it is right. The past is not always a good guide to the present merely because it was in the past.
But when something has been defined with a particular feature that has remained unchanged regardless of the method of governance, location, or cultural attitudes, then it behooves us to take a very careful look at exactly why:
  • Changing that distinctive, universal feature would be a good thing
  • There was never any other attempt at this feature’s redefinition
So far, same-sex “marriage” proponents have failed to answer either of these critical questions.
False. The Bible is very strongly against the male temple prostitutes found in some ANE religions. I have also seen a mention of male temple prostitution in Mayan religion.
You are somewhat correct here, except Scripture provides for no “loopholes” which would permit homosexual behavior. However, even in societies which aggressively promoted homosexual behavior, marriage was always defined as something that could only exist between male and female.
False. The MCC did not change its stance under political pressure, it was explicitly set up from the start to cater for gays and lesbians.
Perhaps that’s the case for the MCC, but several protestant denominations have done exactly this, just as was done with contraception.
False. A number of societies have had same sex marriage, though most are non-Christian or pre-Christian and so do not feature largely in histories written by Christians.
Bzzzt - wrong. There is no record - either “written by Christians” (and therefore apparently unreliable in your view) or contemporary (written by those who lived in the society) - that supports your assertion. I challenge you to name a single society which saw same-sex “marriage” in the way that is activists are trying to force on society.
Your question is based on these false premises and so fails.

rossum
The same can be said of your answer.
 
There is only a difference in states where same sex marriage has explicitly been excluded. Absent that, the marriage is recognised. For example, the couple in the Windsor case were married in Canada and their marriage was legally recognised in New York. It was not recognised in Federal law, hence the Supreme Court case. Hence part of the argument in that case is States’ rights versus Federal government rights. New York recognised the marriage while the IRS did not.

Some states do recognise same sex marriages from other states.

rossum
The same holds true for civil unions/domestic partnerships. Some states recognize, some do not. Marriage in CA is not recognized by federal law, either, so there is no argument there.

Thank you for confirming all along that there is, was, and still isn’t an legal distinction between civil unions in CA and same sex “marriage” in CA.

The case is at the Supreme Court because a liberal didn’t want to pay her inheritance taxes. Irony is a harsh mistress.
 
There are very few, if any, states where " the exact same privileges apply in every respect".
Way to change the subject. The issue is not how many States; the issue is, where in fact the privileges are equal in every respect, activist homosexuals are not satisfied. Rather, they demand to elevate the homsexual culture as mainstreamed, by force.

As others have said, this is not about “rights.” It’s a battle to try to force every American to approve of the homosexual lifestyle and to honor it – in language, in educational curriculum, and much more --no matter how artificial those changes are and how they offend the prevailing culture.

The fight to share the word “marriage” and to demand its official application is central to this effort.
 
Thank you for confirming all along that there is, was, and still isn’t an legal distinction between civil unions in CA and same sex “marriage” in CA.
Even staying within CA, the immigration laws mean that a married person can sponsor their foreign spouse into CA, while a civil unioned person cannot.

If you exclude from the discussion all the areas where the differences exist, then there are no differences. “Excepting the differences, there is no difference between Christianity and Hinduism.” True, but not exactly very useful.
The case is at the Supreme Court because a liberal didn’t want to pay her inheritance taxes. Irony is a harsh mistress.
The case is because she didn’t want to be discriminated against in matters of taxation. Had she been male she would not have been taxed.

rossum
 
Way to change the subject. The issue is not how many States; the issue is, where in fact the privileges are equal in every respect, activist homosexuals are not satisfied. Rather, they demand to elevate the homsexual culture as mainstreamed, by force.
There is no US state where civil unions and marriage are “equal in every respect”. Federal law sees to that, as well as different treatment in other states.

rossum
 
I stated that every major world religion has been against homosexual acts. Rossum stated false.

Clearly Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have called it immoral. The Dalai Lama says that Buddhism does not allow homosexual acts–I’m going to assume he knows what he’s talking about. evangelical.us/homosexuality/buddhism.html Reports on Hinduism are mixed at best. Sikhism also condemns the act.

Please explain how a statement about Christianity condemning male temple prostitutes discounts all of that.

Can you tell us which societies or civilizations had ‘marriage’ between two men or two women?
 
Even staying within CA, the immigration laws mean that a married person can sponsor their foreign spouse into CA, while a civil unioned person cannot.

If you exclude from the discussion all the areas where the differences exist, then there are no differences. “Excepting the differences, there is no difference between Christianity and Hinduism.” True, but not exactly very useful.
So just to be clear: Federal law (the ones who handle immigration) recognize same sex marriages and allow such as sponsor’s of foreign spouses?

Source?

answers.usa.gov/system/selfservice.controller?CONFIGURATION=1000&PARTITION_ID=1&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=10625&USERTYPE=1&LANGUAGE=en&COUNTRY=US

Not so much. Domestic partners can’t sponsor a spouse in CA, and neither can a same sex “married” (under CA law).

Seriously, rossum, this game is getting old. Please point out which STATE benefits were denied to civil unions in CA.
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rossum:
The case is because she didn’t want to be discriminated against in matters of taxation. Had she been male she would not have been taxed.

rossum
Why not just pay her “fair share”?

pointless repeat of my username scipio337
 
In States where the exact same privileges apply in every respect, it is not enough…
Same-sex civil unions and/or domestic partnerships do not include the exact same privileges as marriage in any State.
 
In all honesty… i’m tried of hearing about ‘gay marriage’. It got voted down in Cali… so much for our vote counting. And IMO they got enough rights. Let them eat dirt… meh. They have more than enough privileges.
Same-sex civil unions and/or domestic partnerships do not include the exact same privileges as marriage in any State.
 
I don’t get you Rossum, to reply to your previous post, I’ll just be repeating myself.

Could you please read all of this Rossum and let me know your thoughts? sorry about it being so long.

It will help me alot to guage where you are and how you view all of this, because if it’s equality between homosexuals and hetrosexuals your aiming for, than I applaud you, because I also aim for that, however when it’s equality between homosexuality and hetrosexualy, it just doesn’t make any sense, and to equate such things through same sex marriage is just illogical I think.

My primary concern with this, is the illusion it will create between equating homosexual unions and hetrosexual unions, the illusion that a homosexual union is equal to a hetrosexual union, which obviously they are not.

Now when it comes to children, there are obvious reasons to discriminate, which would be that a childs ultimate environment is with a mum and a dad, so obviously a mum and a dad in a hetrosexual union is the best option, so therefore when it comes to adoption, it would be wrong to treat a homosexual union and a hetrosexual union eqaually in that regard because Id adopt out to hetrosexual unions as they provide a father figure and a mother figure, before I adopted out to homosexual unions wouldn’t you agree Rossum?

However this is not as much of a concern as homosexuals trying to have biological children, Im generally mortified when people speak of using sience with the use of a thrid party to provide a homosexual couple with a biological child only biologically tied to one partner.

The reason why is because I understand the removal of a biological parent for the benefit of a child, such as an abusive/dangerous mother or father, however when it comes to homosexual couples trying to have their own biological children, they use a third party and science to intentionaly bring a child into the word with intent to deprive that child of their mother or father, not because it’s what they think is best for the child, but becuase it suits themselves, I find it extremely selfish and Im generally mortified that a practice like this could be allowed, wouldn’t you agree with me Rossum?

Now once homosexual unions have the word ‘marriage’ whats to stop them from having ‘family’ too, from using what I described above to have biological children only biologically tied to one of them, I understand adoption and fostering, as long as it was after the best option of a mother and father with hetrosexual unions were exhuasted.

It is just so wrong to bring a child into the word with absolute intent to deprive that child of their mother or father, not to benefit the child but to benefit themselves, wouldn’t you agree Rossum?

Technically the who idea of homosexuality means that homosexuals cannot have biological children, as to have a child requires a mother and a father, now sience hasn’t changed that at all, every child still has a mother and a father, what sience is doing, is allowing homosexuals to have children by changing the nature of which homosexuals are inseminated, which still requires X and Y Chromosomes, which is hetrosexuality, however with science they can still be homosexual for this whole process of procreation to occur.

This is what I fear most, you tell me that when homosexual unions have marriage, they will not want ‘family’ too, the use of science to have a biological child and intentionaly bring a child into the word with intent to deprive that child of their biological mother or father not to benefit the child but to benefit themselves.

The whole idea of same sex marriage, is to play into the illusion that a homosexual union is the same as a hetrosexual union, now common Rossum, there is no way you can believe that they are equal unions, like I have said the sexual nature shows that in reality they are vastly different unions, now to legalise same sex marriage will play into this illusion even more, which will push homosexuals to do the horrors that I have mentioned above, in an effort to try and achieve ‘family’ with the use of science to procreate and have biological children and intentionaly do it in a way that removes the father or mother for no other reason but to benefit themselves and play into the illusion that homosexuality beings the same gifts as hetrosexuality.

People are using the point of procreating, to a degree they are correct, becasue once homosexuals have marriage, they will want ‘family’ which is generally procreation, homosexuals cannot procreate, instead they will use science and do the horrors that I mentioned above.

Now Rossum, if you say that the idea of homosexuals doing what I have mentioned above to children is okay, than I will give up my argument because you will be just so far from morality.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Again, other states aren’t obligated to honor same sex marriages performed in California, either. That’s not a difference.

So again, what are the differences??
I assume that you understand that the only reason that states are not bound to full faith and credit with respect to gay marriage is DOMA. Once DOMA is either struck down or repealed, then all states will be required to honor marriages performed in every other state. In fact, this was precisely why DOMA was enacted. Hawaii was about to legalize gay marriage, in most people’s opinion. Great panic ensued, out of fear that this would then legalize gay marriage in every other state. The Congress hastily passed DOMA without realizing that it would become an instrument for testing the constitutionality of the matter, and that it would in fact hasten the legalization of gay marriage.
 
Same-sex civil unions and/or domestic partnerships do not include the exact same privileges as marriage in any State.
Was the AG of California lying when, in her brief to the Supreme Court, she cited, “Cal. Fam. Code § 297, which provides that ‘domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties . . . as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.’ Id. § 297.5(a).”?

Exactly what privileges under state control are granted to married couples and were being denied by “domestic partnerships” in California?
 
Was the AG of California lying when, in her brief to the Supreme Court, she cited, “Cal. Fam. Code § 297, which provides that ‘domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties . . . as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.’ Id. § 297.5(a).”?

Exactly what privileges under state control are granted to married couples and were being denied by “domestic partnerships” in California?
You are in the wrong playground. Try the federal sandbox.
 
I stated that every major world religion has been against homosexual acts. Rossum stated false.

Clearly Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have called it immoral. The Dalai Lama says that Buddhism does not allow homosexual acts–I’m going to assume he knows what he’s talking about. evangelical.us/homosexuality/buddhism.html Reports on Hinduism are mixed at best. Sikhism also condemns the act.
The Dalai Lama speaks for the dGelug-pa sect of Tibetan Buddhism. Just like Christianity and Judaism, Buddhism has a liberal/conservative split on homosexuality.
Please explain how a statement about Christianity condemning male temple prostitutes discounts all of that.
It shows that the non-Jewish religions in the area at the time allowed male homosexuality in their temples.

rossum
 
Seriously, rossum, this game is getting old. Please point out which STATE benefits were denied to civil unions in CA.
So, you agree that Hinduism and Christianity are the same provided you ignore the differences.

A CA civil union is not recognised outside CA. A CA marriage is recognised in some places outside CA. That is a real difference. Sometimes couples want to move to a different state. It is the benefits in that second state which are affected. Maine recognises CA marriages; Maine does not recognise CA civil unions.
Why not just pay her “fair share”?
You think it is fair to charge a higher tax on a woman than a man in an identical situation? You have a very strange definition of “fair”.

rossum
 
The Congress hastily passed DOMA without realizing that it would become an instrument for testing the constitutionality of the matter, and that it would in fact hasten the legalization of gay marriage.
The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again.

rossum
 
My primary concern with this, is the illusion it will create between equating homosexual unions and hetrosexual unions, the illusion that a homosexual union is equal to a hetrosexual union, which obviously they are not.
I see the illusion differently. I think you see “marriage” as a single word denoting a single essential thing. There are various peripheral differences between different versions of marriage, but those differences are not essential. Different countries have different ages at which people can legally marry. You see that as a peripheral, not an essential difference.

I approach things differently. I do not see an “essence” in anything – it is the idea of an ‘essence’ that is the illusion – all there is are the various properties of each instance of the thing. In Thomist terms I deny the existence of Substance and only accept the existence of Accident. This is a standard Buddhist approach; all reified essences are incorrectly imagined.

Given our different philosophical approaches, you see same sex marriage as an “essential” change, that destroys the essence of marriage. I do not, I just see it as another change in a human institution that has been changing throughout history. Because marriage does not have an “essence”, there is no such thing as an essential change.

Buddhism sees change as ubiquitous, which is why it rejects unchanging essences. This is just another change in a world where change is the norm and is expected.
Now when it comes to children, there are obvious reasons to discriminate, which would be that a childs ultimate environment is with a mum and a dad, so obviously a mum and a dad in a hetrosexual union is the best option, so therefore when it comes to adoption, it would be wrong to treat a homosexual union and a hetrosexual union eqaually in that regard because Id adopt out to hetrosexual unions as they provide a father figure and a mother figure, before I adopted out to homosexual unions wouldn’t you agree Rossum?
No. There are cases where children need to be removed from their parents because the parents are a danger to them. There are cases where a homosexual child is appallingly badly treated by their parents, and would be far better off with a homosexual couple. There are cases where the birth parents are dead.

You cannot use a “one size fits all” solution when dealing with human beings. There are cases when a heterosexual couple is the best solution; there are cases where a homosexual couple is the best solution. There are cases where there is no ‘best’ solution, and you have to pick the least bad solution.
However this is not as much of a concern as homosexuals trying to have biological children, Im generally mortified when people speak of using sience with the use of a thrid party to provide a homosexual couple with a biological child only biologically tied to one partner.
What is currently done in similar situations in a heterosexual marriage? If the wife has a child from an affair or a previous partner, does the law automatically remove the child from the couple? We are back to equal treatment under law.

Given the prevalence of divorce, how many children are now living with one natural parent and the parent’s new partner? How does this differ from a lesbian couple using a sperm bank? Indeed, the lesbians may have been together as a couple for longer.

Again, you need to think of what is done in the equivalent situation for a heterosexual marriage. In the vast majority of cases, the situation is morally censured, but no action is taken in law.
The whole idea of same sex marriage, is to play into the illusion that a homosexual union is the same as a hetrosexual union
I do not think that they are the same. However, the differences are not sufficiently large to warrant distinguishing between the two in law. Treat same sex married couples the same as the equivalent opposite sex married couples in law. Differences do exist, as with tall people and short people. Those differences do not justify different treatment in law.
Now Rossum, if you say that the idea of homosexuals doing what I have mentioned above to children is okay, than I will give up my argument because you will be just so far from morality.
What are homosexuals going to do with children that heterosexuals are not already doing? As long as the treatment in law is the same, then I am content.

If you want to know what I think, then just look at how the heterosexual equivalent is treated. I am all for legal equality.
Thank you for reading
Thank you for some interesting questions.

rossum
 
Note: This is a long reply, many paragraphs are reffering to different parts of your post, the paragraphs may not relate to each other, I apologise for it being so long, thank you for your patience and consideration toward my views Rossum

Rossum, I just don’t like the idea of both a heterosexual union and a homosexual union being reffered to as marriage, because a heterosexual union is not sinful and a homosexual union is sinful according to me, you don’t view it like this but I do.

I don’t like the idea of a word I use, also being used to describe something sinful and I guess that is what it comes down to, I just wish they would use a different word instead of trying to expand the word marriage to include something that is sinful according to me and many others.

I agree with you Rossum about your point on adoption, that was not what I was getting at, because you are right there is not a “one size fits all” solution when it comes to adoption, what I was reffering to is when they make a decision to adopt out, homosexual unions and heterosexual unions should not be treated equally, because to do that means that they consider having a mother and father as no different to having two mothers or two fathers, which is incorrect, so this must also be ‘weighed’ into the decision when it comes to adoption.

People can have an affair and conceive a child naturaly, if it required science to have a child through an affair than it would be wrong and Im not talking about the removal of a child, Im talking about the creation of a Child.

It’s all about the creation of a child, if the child is naturally concieved with intent to deprive that child of their mother or father, not becuase it’s whats best for the child, but because it’s what they selfishly wanted, than that would also be wrong, but the law cant do anything about that if the child is naturally conceived.

However when it comes to “sperm banks” and the use of science to procreate, than we most certainly should be stopping that process of procreation occuring through science if the intent is to bring a child into the world with absolute intentention to deprive that child of their mother or father, not because it’s what they think is best for the child, but because it’s what they selfishly want.
This is what happens when a homosexual uses a third party and science to bring a biological child into their union, which is just so very wrong I think.

Law cannot stop the procreation process if it’s natural without the use of science, even if it is bringing a child into the world with intent of depriving them of their mother or father.

However when it requires the use of science, why would we use this to purposely bring a child into the word with intent of depriving them of their mother or father? not because it will benefit the child, but because it will benefit themselves, if we can stop the creation of a child by not using science, if we know the intent is to deprive that child of their mother or father wouldn’t we be obligated to do that?

Men and women are treated equally under law, but that doesn’t mean that we should recognise women as men, I think the same thing would have to apply here, even if you wish to treat homosexual unions and heterosexual unions equal under law, that doesn’t mean that they should both be reffered to as marriage’s.

It’s the whole point that children need a father and a mother, sometimes they cannot always have this, but we should always be aiming for this, to equate homosexual unions with heterosexual unions in regards to children means to say that children are no different without a father figure or a mother figure.

I like that you are very much for equality Rossum, but I wish it was directed just at homosexuals and heterosexuals and not heterosexuality and homosexuality, because a homosexual union and a heterosexual union are vastly different given their sexual nature in reality, and that is why I think it’s wrong to equate both a heterosexual union and a homosexual union under the same word as marriage.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
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