Republican senator announces support for gay marriage

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“Let us not allow omens of destruction and death to accompany the advance of this world. But to be protectors, we also have to keep watch over ourselves. Let us not forget that hatred, envy and pride defile our lives. Being protectors, then, also means keeping watch over our emotions, over our hearts, because they are the seat of good and evil intentions: intentions that build up and tear down. We must not be afraid of goodness or even tenderness,” he said.

-Pope Francis
 
But there is more than just their sentimentality and fragility of their feelings at stake here, there is also our collective society and our children. And they take priority- do they not?
I think this is not talked about enough. This is what I mean by balancing both sides of the equation. Yes, we should be “pastoral”, but that does not mean we can disregard how actions will affect our children. We cannot allow propagandists, misguided or not, to control the debate. Think about those who will be led astray and how much indoctrination will lead others off the road to salvation. It is not only about perceived pastoral care of this group but also about families and children. Children have rights too and must never be forgotten in this endless political debate.
 
Please Cor Cordis, hear me out.

Your passion is good, it’s no different to Peter’s passion when he cut the ear off of the high priest’s servant who was sent to arrest Jesus.

People have always misstreated the followers of Christ, so when they do this, stand tall and fight back with the Love and Mercy of Christ, than he will surely be pleased with you.

I get so passionate sometimes that I don’t see it from the other perspective, replace during this topic the words “hetrosexual” with “homosexual” and vice versa, than read them again, if this were infact true and christ was against hetrosexual desires, this would be a very heavy cross for us to carry, we would know that it was disordered not natural or normal, and to try and live a lifestyle similar to a homosexual one would only make our crosses heavier, because deep down we would be digging a deeper hole for ourselves by living a lie, the only escape would be for us to carry our crosses with much dignity and respect as christ did, and with christ we would be free from our desires.

Remember Christ forgave them as they were nailing him to the cross.

I don’t know why I didn’t see it like this before, my passion blinded me.

Thank you for reading
Josh.
Now please hear me out:

In all sincerity josh, the homosexual-advocates have inflicted immeasurable harm on our children. They have legalized gay-adoption, driven Catholic charities out of the adoption business in several states (including mine) and they have successfully implemented a “gender neutral” agenda in public schools that mandates coed bathrooms and showers.

**Our Lord forgave those who Crucified Him, however, he was NOT so lenient towards those who corrupted the innocent. **

Our Lord clearly stated:

*“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!" -Matthew 18:6-7
**

And this to the collective mindset of those who refuse to hear Truth:

"Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words–go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." - Matthew 10:14-15

Riddle me the *tolerance *in that josh.
 
“Let us not allow omens of destruction and death to accompany the advance of this world. But to be protectors, we also have to keep watch over ourselves. Let us not forget that hatred, envy and pride defile our lives. Being protectors, then, also means keeping watch over our emotions, over our hearts, because they are the seat of good and evil intentions: intentions that build up and tear down. We must not be afraid of goodness or even tenderness,” he said.

-Pope Francis
A poignant statement directed at you as well as me.

Tell me, can you read my emotions on this thread?

Can you define justified moral outrage from mere histrionics in here?

Can you read my heart?
 
Prodigal son1 Quote -
We can distance some we try to help by how we address them. The goal is to guide them back, and not beat them away. A shepherd does not beat the flock to get them to go a certain way.
I think that describes it the best, when you know the ‘truth’ of ‘homosexuality’ you will no longer feel threatened by their actions, instead you will feel pity for them.

Like I said my views of homosexuality have not changed, but my views of homosexuals have, the fact that they are on a path of destruction, if I were homosexual on that path I would be praying for anything to guide me away from my disordered desires and to Christ.

We need to show them the better path, the path of Christ, to carry their crosses with much dignity and respect as christ did, that way it will no longer be hetrosexuals opposing homosexual desires, it will be homosexuals opposing homosexual desires.

Hetrosexuals are only supporting homosexual desires because they think it will help them feel normal and not disordered and thus lightening their crosses, but it wont, it will only make them feel worse, making their crosses heavier as the reality of their disordered desires will become more visible until they are unable to see them as anything but disordered, that cross would be excruciating.

Thank you for reading
Josh.
 
Now please hear me out:

In all sincerity josh, the homosexual-advocates have inflicted immeasurable harm on our children. They have legalized gay-adoption, driven Catholic charities out of the adoption business in several states (including mine) and they have successfully implemented a “gender neutral” agenda in public schools that mandates coed bathrooms and showers.

Our Lord forgave those who Crucified Him, however, he was NOT so lenient towards those who corrupted the innocent.

Our Lord clearly stated:

*“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!" -Matthew 18:6-7
**

And this to the collective mindset of those who refuse to hear Truth:

"Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words–go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." - Matthew 10:14-15

Riddle me the *tolerance *in that josh.
“Let’s not be naive, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God,” “We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”
Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio
 
A question:

Do we place first and foremost in our priorities the feelings and emotional well-being of the:

Pedophile?

The pederast?

The polygamist?

The reckless addict?
 
“Let’s not be naive, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God,” “We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”
Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio
The Devil is cunning beyond all human means:

He cleverly uses “tolerance” as a velvet-gloved fist to pound the innocent and their dutiful defenders into a submissive state of impotent intimidation and guilt.

And he does so with fallacies of reasoning and half-truths of perception and easily misplaced sentimentality wrapped in a false guise of “compassion”.

May God help us all.

St. Michael, defend us in Battle against the Father of All Lies and the cunningly wicked snares that he sets within all of us.

Assist us Oh Archangel.
 
Your passion is good, it’s no different to Peter’s passion when he cut the ear off of the high priest’s servant who was sent to arrest Jesus.
We can pick and choose analogies. Another person might say it’s passion equal to Jesus overturning tables in the temple.

People have always misstreated the followers of Christ, so when they do this, stand tall and fight back with the Love and Mercy of Christ, than he will surely be pleased with you.
I get so passionate sometimes that I don’t see it from the other perspective, replace during this topic the words “hetrosexual” with “homosexual” and vice versa, than read them again, if this were infact true
But it isn’t.
and christ was against hetrosexual desires, this would be a very heavy cross for us to carry, we would know that it was disordered not natural or normal, and to try and live a lifestyle similar to a homosexual one would only make our crosses heavier, because deep down we would be digging a deeper hole for ourselves by living a lie,
This goes to the point, however, that we are all sinners. We all struggle with desires that are not of God’s perfect will, yet we do not all go out demanding that we not only be allowed to practice these behaviors openly, but that others must applaud and respect them.

Let’s take a simple thing like smoking. Where is the concern for the feelings of smokers? Where is this deep, abiding concern for the feelings of drug abusers and heroine addicts? What if people were out in the streets announcing that they look at porn or masturbate and they’re proud of it, and demanding that a bakery bake them a cake celebrating that they do so?

I do agree with you in being compassionate and merciful. Many saints in history has lived that message. At the same time, however, Jesus did rage and overturn tables in the temple. He did call Peter Satan (“Get behind me, Satan.”) Plenty of saints have not been all sweet and gentle harmonious light, but were very forceful in speaking out against sin.

My question to you is: what is the answer?

Do you think that perhaps there’s room for both?

I will also add that I think you’re mistaken in portraying this as a situation in which homosexuals invariably struggle with these desires. Some do. Some don’t. Some celebrate it, march in the streets, and aggressively push it on society. We can’t make blanket statements and shape our every response to a supposed, but untrue situation.
Remember Christ forgave them as they were nailing him to the cross.
Yes, he did. But He didn’t take back any of the ‘hurtful’ words He said to the money changers in the temple, or the Pharisees, or any of the others He provoked. 😉

I’m just going to add here that in reading the several pages of discussion that have arisen since last night, I can’t help but notice that a number of issues are never addressed. I see a poster calling another names and making sneering put-downs, but not actually addressing the issues raised.

There are many reasons to object to creating ‘gay marriage.’ (I will not call it ‘legalizing’ gay marriage, because that implies that at some point such a thing existed and was outlawed. This is not the case.) Yet none of these things are addressed. They’re ignored in favor of launching insults. This, to me, speaks volumes. It is foolish to overturn the experience of the entire history of mankind, of every civilization, ever, in every corner of this planet, unless we have some very firm reasons.

Proponents of creating ‘gay marriage’ and overturning everything the world has ever known or deemed wise, please go back and actually answer the questions raised in the last five or six pages. Please prove to us that it is a good idea.


  1. *]Studies and anecdotes both suggest that being raised by homosexual couples is not the healthiest option for children. Please go back and address the many links posted showing this. Simply declaring them ‘invalid sources’ is not good enough. Why are your sources, all very pro-homosexual, more valid?

    *]Studies and personal experience show that the homosexual lifestyle is not equivalent to the heterosexual lifestyle. As just one instance: the astoundingly high number of sexual partners.

    *]This promiscuity affects the children witnessing it.

    *]This promiscuity affects the health of those involved in it.

    *]This promiscuity affects all of us: in the medical costs involved, in huge amounts of tax money going to research to solve an illness that we already had the cure to (quit sleeping around); in employees losing work time to health issues, and other employees having to pick up the slack.

    *]The demands that we celebrate a sexual behavior and teach it to our children in schools!

    *]The steadily increasing attacks of freedom of conscience.

    These are facts. And repeatedly, the answer to these facts is to call names: hateful, bigoted.
 
The Devil is cunning beyond all human means:

He cleverly uses “tolerance” as a velvet-gloved fist to pound the innocent and their dutiful defenders into a submissive state of impotent intimidation and guilt.

And he does so with fallacies of reasoning and half-truths of perception and easily misplaced sentimentality wrapped in a false guise of “compassion”.

May God help us all.

St. Michael, defend us in Battle against the Father of All Lies and the cunningly wicked snares that he sets within all of us.

Assist us Oh Archangel.
Basically, my wish is that people just addressed the issues and stopped playing the “tone” card.
 
This discussion goes above and beyond the scope of homosexuality or homosexual ‘marriage,’ to the deeper root of our society’s obsession with 1) sexual pleasure; 2) having anything and everything we want, because we want it; 3) re-defining ‘self-fulfilment’ and ‘I want’ as the highest goals.

It was suggested earlier in this thread that a conservative Catholic who opposes upending everything the world has ever known doesn’t actually know that many homosexuals.

This is a foolish assumption. We come to our beliefs from every possible starting point. I have spent my life in the arts, with many friends–yes friends–who have very different beliefs and lifestyles than do I. Discussions with one of those friends in particular have led me to some very interesting sites, populated by those involved in open marriages, polyamory, BDSM, and more. All of these sites include plenty of homosexual members.

I want this really, really clear:

By showing their lifestyle and mindset, THEY THEMSELVES, have convinced me this is bad for society.

Why? ** The sheer hedonism**. The all-encompassing sweep of self-centeredness, the self-indulgence to the exclusion of all else, is truly breath-taking.

What am I seeing at these sites? Seeking sexual pleasure to the exclusion of almost all else. Certainly, people get too involved in skiing, movies or TV, and that’s not healthy either, but there’s a quantitative and qualitative difference in what I’m seeing. No regard for the world around them, no regard for those in need, hardly even a recognition that anything else exists. Is this good for an individual? For their intellect, their creativity, their children, their growth as human beings? For a society?

An example: In talking with this person I know, I find her life has revolved entirely around drinking, partying, dating sites, and ‘house parties’ (ie, orgies) for nearly two decades. She is *stunned, * when exposed to things like skiing, theater, music concerts. It was truly shocking how outside her experience ANY of this was, to realize how her world had narrowed down to: Gratifying sexual pleasure. Hard to even grasp.

I tongue in cheek suggested one day that she join me in sponsoring a child. $30 a month. She and her husband go out to dinner 15-20 times a month with each other or on dates with others. Upscale places, where dinner is $80-100; sometimes over $200. She has money for all sorts of things to fulfill her sexual pleasure. She doesn’t work and to all appearances, she spends a great deal of each day on dating sites, posting and commenting on others’ ‘kink’ photos, and planning multiple dates per week with other men.

Her response to $30 a month? She laughed. “That’s my party money.”

In essence, a child somewhere in this world will continue to go to bed hungry so she and her husband can buy sex toys and pay for memberships on dating websites and have drinks and expensive dinners for multiple dating partners.

Multiply this by millions of people living this way–including in the particular area we’re discussing–and it’s not only a question of the sexual morality, but of all the good that is not being done because we have become, as a nation, obsessed with our own gratification. Of all the elderly and poor and children being neglected so that millions can pursue their promiscuity–which is highly prevalent among homosexuals.

Yes, I know that not every homosexual couple lives this way. But it’s common enough that it’s a huge impact on our society.

Other examples: in reading one site I found as a result of my conversations with this woman, I read story after story much like hers. I read blogs by parents in open marriages, and what I see is a steady stream of drama, drama, drama, new relationships, lovers (for lack of a better word) moving in and out of their homes–with their children; fights, jealousy, break-ups, endless ‘communication’ and talks and letter writing to one another and discussing it endlessly on forums, trying to make all these triads and vees work. Story after story, the writer mentions anxiety, depression, and being on various medications. Just an interesting observation.

As I’ve read, all I can think is: WHO IS TAKING CARE OF THESE KIDS??? How is all this constant drama affecting the children watching it? How does it affect them seeing that their parents are (to all appearances) too pre-occupied with all their new relationship energy and dating to have much time left for the kids? How is it affecting a 15 year old girl and her future relationships to see her mother, father, and father’s girlfriend traipsing in and out of a single bedroom constantly and to live with the constant tension between the two women and her father jumping back and forth between two homes and simply not there because he’s off with his girlfriend?

Many of these couples chose to be childless in favor of having the freedom to live this lifestyle. Multiply this choice by millions, and there IS an impact on our society, as the number of workers supporting each older person on social security dwindles, as the burden is raised on each of those individuals.

We’re talking here specifically about creating a whole new concept of ‘marriage’ between two people of the same sex, but all of these things play into that–how we got here, where it’s going to continue to take us. I bring these things up because over and over, studies show that this hedonism is quite common among homosexuals. I see it in these sites and people I know, directly from these people’s own mouths, and we’re fooling ourselves pretending it’s not happening, and calling people names rather than addressing how this is affecting our society and our children.
 
Please Cor Cordis, hear me out.

Your passion is good, it’s no different to Peter’s passion when he cut the ear off of the high priest’s servant who was sent to arrest Jesus.
The context was clear: Peter was following his passions to inflict physical injury that would have inevitably led to his death or the death of a guard. And the very thing Peter was trying to prevent, The Passion Of Our Lord, was necessary to abolish all everlasting death. So in effect, Peter was actually in danger of fostering an indelible chain of death. But more to the specifics, Our Lord (personally, physically) needs no mortal protection. However, we mere mortals do. And violence should always be the last and most necessary response., and not always the first and only response. Peter did not understand the Cup that Our Lord had to accept. Violence would have served nothing but evil in that particular circumstance and in its broader context.

But, my accurate words carried no death with them. Only a warning away from deadly and abominable sin.
People have always misstreated the followers of Christ, so when they do this, stand tall and fight back with the Love and Mercy of Christ, than he will surely be pleased with you.
We are obliged to defend the innocent first and foremost. Without prioritized reservations towards the assailant. Do our innocent children deserve any less?
I get so passionate sometimes that I don’t see it from the other perspective, replace during this topic the words “hetrosexual” with “homosexual” and vice versa, than read them again, if this were infact true and christ was against hetrosexual desires, this would be a very heavy cross for us to carry, we would know that it was disordered not natural or normal, and to try and live a lifestyle similar to a homosexual one would only make our crosses heavier, because deep down we would be digging a deeper hole for ourselves by living a lie, the only escape would be for us to carry our crosses with much dignity and respect as christ did, and with christ we would be free from our desires.
You are making a dangerous moral equivalence here.

Homosexuality (the active expression of the disordered desire state) was always established in Scripture as an abomination. It carried with it, an especially harsh rebuke from The Almighty. Angels were actually sent to Sodom and Gomorrah to wreak absolute destruction. such is God’s disdain when such an abomination is adopted on a societal level. And our Lord clearly references this heavenly intolerance upon those who refuse to even listen to Truth.
Remember Christ forgave them as they were nailing him to the cross.
Yes. But he clearly gave no quarter to those who would “mislead one of (His) little ones”.
I don’t know why I didn’t see it like this before, my passion blinded me.
Thank you for reading
Josh.
I would suggest that you balance your sentimentality will prudent discernment.
 
“Let’s not be naive, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God,” “We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”
Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio
This bears repeating in here.

Thank you, fix.👍

Homosexuality is a grave disorder and an intrinsically evil act. And our Catechism is clear on that.

Not all mortal sins are equal in their far-reaching effects and deadly implications on our Church and our society. Some are more complete in the degree and longevity of their destruction. And some are directed specifically at deceiving the very nature and intended design of our most innocent and defenseless souls among us: our children.
 
Do you treat remarried divorcees the same as you do active homosexuals? Both are sinning. If you treat them the same then you are not discriminating. If you treat them differently then you are discriminating. A great many people are sinners. Do you treat all sinners the same or are some sinners to be treated differently?

rossum
Excuse me for not answering your post earlier. All of us sin, how did the question of whether we sin come to mean discrimination. If I sell a house to a white man and not to a black man, that is discrimination. If I choose to smoke, take drugs, drink to excess, sleep with some one of my own sex,or another sex for sexual gradification that is a lifestyle, I would tell my son that too is wrong,there is no way you can equate, homosexual relations to discrimination, it’s a leap to far. If I see a black man coming down the street, I know he is a blackman, if I see a man coming down the street I don’t know his sexual preference unless he tells me or wants to encumber my life with his lifestyle. Your statement has nothing to do with same-sex marriage.
 
Are you saying that sexual attraction, and sex, are not a part of romantic love?
It is a Part of LOve, but it is not nesecary for love. Is a man who cannot engage in sex anyless able to Love, We love God without the ability to touch him. You can have sex without being in love, it happens all the time. Love has may degrees, you can have romantic sex with out being in love, and most peope do. Why do we say let’s make love when we only want to have sex? I can ask you the same question in reverse, do you have to be in love to have sex? Love is enhance by sex it is not the only factor in falling in love.
 
Children are seen as commodities.
To me this is truly one of the horrors of legitimizing homosexual marriage. Since there is no way to naturally create a child, many are now breeding children like animals. In no way to I denigrate the children who like all are children of God. But the same people that would recoil in horror at stories of breeding slaves in pre-Civil War south, think nothing of two gay males paying a woman to provide an egg and/or carry the child. Or as a Lesbian couple I know did, get a sperm donor and conceived a child. In both cases the other biological parent was never a part of the child’s life. The child is purchased and the parent is purchased. It’s disgusting. But the more normalized homosexaul marriage becomes, the less people realize what is happening. It’s like Brave New World.

Lisa
 
To me this is truly one of the horrors of legitimizing homosexual marriage. Since there is no way to naturally create a child, many are now breeding children like animals. In no way to I denigrate the children who like all are children of God. But the same people that would recoil in horror at stories of breeding slaves in pre-Civil War south, think nothing of two gay males paying a woman to provide an egg and/or carry the child. Or as a Lesbian couple I know did, get a sperm donor and conceived a child. In both cases the other biological parent was never a part of the child’s life. The child is purchased and the parent is purchased. It’s disgusting. But the more normalized homosexaul marriage becomes, the less people realize what is happening. It’s like Brave New World.

Lisa
It is terribly unjust yet instead most of the arguments are about the “unfairness” of two men or women not being allowed to pretend to be married.
 
So, you have no objection on those grounds to two lesbians getting married? Even less risk of sodomy there than in a heterosexual marriage.

rossum
You don’t have to pose this question to Catholics in a Catholic forum. Practicing lesbians would be admonished as practicing male homosexuals are admonished. No telos in the way lesbians make love, the same when gay male pairs sexually express themselves.

Ask the Dalai Lama, whose reasoning might be closer to yours, even if you differ with his admonitions with regard to homosexual acts because you follow a liberal and gay friendly form of Buddhism.

The benevolent Dalai Lama does not support gay sex as he said it uses the “wrong hole.” I don’t know what words of wisdom he would impart, but if asked about lesbian sex, he might say it is also wrong because of “absence of a required tool.” He has a way of getting his message across which could not be any plainer.
,
 
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