Requesting one's own death

[ThinkingSapien]

I’ve come across a real life scenario.

There’s a person, Catholic, that is of deteriorating health. He’s contemplating his own death, gathering family to take care of his will, and doing other things to prepare for death.

Because of the direction in which he health is going he is concerned with finding himself trapped in his own body experiencing nothing but pain. Pain management with this person has failed due to reactions to pain medication. In preparing for this scenario he’s made a coded message asking that one of his friends be ready to help him die if his life reaches the point of being only pain.

How would you react to this scenario?

 

[po18guy]

We may never, under any circumstances, take innocent human life. A bright line there. Doesn’t matter what they want. Asking those whom one claims to love to commit a mortal sin is not a reasonable last request and not only are the faithful prohibited from honoring such a request, no one is obligated to carry it out.

What non-believers occasionally fail to understand is that pain and suffering in this life have eternal benefit. In each and every case, they may be applied for one’s own benefit, or that of others.

As well, there is always an alternative in pain management. Always.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

We may never, under any circumstances, take innocent human life. A bright line there. Doesn’t matter what they want. Asking those whom one claims to love to commit a mortal sin is not a reasonable last request and not only are the faithful prohibited from honoring such a request, no one is obligated to carry it out.

What non-believers occasionally fail to understand is that pain and suffering in this life have eternal benefit. In each and every case, they may be applied for one’s own benefit, or that of others.

As well, there is always an alternative in pain management. Always.

If we had (simple and inexpensive) medical technology which could postpone the time of death indefinitely, would we be morally obligated to keep everyone alive forever?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

If we had (simple and inexpensive) medical technology which could postpone the time of death indefinitely, would we be morally obligated to keep everyone alive forever?

Different question. Don’t derail this thread.

The person in the OP should not ask his relatives to do such a thing. More help is needed from doctors.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

We can never take our own life (even if we feel we deserve to die) and we can NEVER
induce an innocent person to HELP US take our own life, making them guilty of the Sin of Homicide. That is not right. We must never do this. Not ever.

As far as praying to die, I believe that in some situations, that is
certainly upright and permissible.
A while back, I prayed to die if my going on living would cause serious problems or
dangers for my loved ones, and asked God to take my life if that were the case.
He did not take my life.

But HE has the right to.
We, and other human beings, DO NOT.

 

[po18guy]

If we had (simple and inexpensive) medical technology which could postpone the time of death indefinitely, would we be morally obligated to keep everyone alive forever?

Natural death. We cannot hasten it, and I think we cross a moral line of we delay it.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Different question. Don’t derail this thread.

The person in the OP should not ask his relatives to do such a thing. More help is needed from doctors.

No, it is fairly relevant. If we want to find a general rule for what to do when someone wishes to die, it would have to apply even in extreme circumstances. Certainly we can consider a “conventional” scenario in which someone will die after 6 months of pain but wishes to die sooner. We would say “he should wait, God decides when he will die.” However, there is the very real possibility (I would say it is likely) that we will eventually have sufficient technology to postpone death for as long as we wish. In other words, our choice is now: artificially extend someones life until some accident kills them (e.g. a power failure decades or centuries later) or chose the time of their death. Is the gut reaction we come up with for the “conventional” situation also true for the more extreme situation?

 

[Nimzovik]

I’ve come across a real life scenario.

There’s a person, Catholic, that is of deteriorating health. He’s contemplating his own death, gathering family to take care of his will, and doing other things to prepare for death.

Because of the direction in which he health is going he is concerned with finding himself trapped in his own body experiencing nothing but pain. Pain management with this person has failed due to reactions to pain medication. In preparing for this scenario he’s made a coded message asking that one of his friends be ready to help him die if his life reaches the point of being only pain.

How would you react to this scenario?

Hmmmmmmm… Perhaps he (the patient) is being given the gift of being a ‘suffering soul’ in order to suffer for sinners and to enhance his state in the after life. So no, his friend should not, assist him to die, but rather to pray for his and to advise him to offer it up.

 

[Nimzovik]

If we had (simple and inexpensive) medical technology which could postpone the time of death indefinitely, would we be morally obligated to keep everyone alive forever?

Heroic measures are not requisite.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

What non-believers occasionally fail to understand is that pain and suffering in this life have eternal benefit. In each and every case, they may be applied for one’s own benefit, or that of others.

Hmmmmmmm… Perhaps he (the patient) is being given the gift of being a ‘suffering soul’ in order to suffer for sinners and to enhance his state in the after life. So no, his friend should not, assist him to die, but rather to pray for his and to advise him to offer it up.

Feel free to count me among those that don’t see suffering as having a benefit. Especially for one that is in the process of going through a slow death.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Natural death. We cannot hasten it, and I think we cross a moral line of we delay it.

I’m not quite sure I follow you here. Isn’t saving a life the same as delaying death? Organ transplants and many media treatments were developed to postpone what would otherwise be a natural death.

In either case is one’s quality of life a concern or consideration?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Feel free to count me among those that don’t see suffering as having a benefit. Especially for one that is in the process of going through a slow death.

I see you don’t list yourself as Catholic, so perhaps you can’t understand our perspective on suffering. And I am not saying it is ever easy. But many times, a person who commits suicide has not truly explored all options for pain relief, and then there is suffering that can be offered up for the benefit of the souls in purgatory, perhaps for one’s own purgation. If I have to suffer here on earth in order to achieve Heaven sooner, bring it on! Anyway, what about emotional suffering? The pain of grief is emotional and physical - should we allow suicide for that too?

The answer of course, is no.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I see you don’t list yourself as Catholic, so perhaps you can’t understand our perspective on suffering.

That’s correct, I do not understand the Catholic perspective on suffering. For me suffering is not a gift that I would ever want to receive. Part of the motivation that I donate to charitable organizations is because it may possibly result in the reduction of some one’s suffering.

And I am not saying it is ever easy. But many times, a person who commits suicide has not truly explored all options for pain relief, and then there is suffering that can be offered up for the benefit of the souls in purgatory, perhaps for one’s own purgation.

Okay, so with the above being said if a person is in serious pain and wants a morphine drip are you saying it would be to the person’s benefit to deny them access to the morphine and allow the person to experience the full magnitude of their pain?

While the person preparing for his own death is Catholic I get the impression that his view isn’t in total agreement with this since he’s requesting that some one truncate the final protracted suffering from his living experience. He’s already stated that he’s not in total agreement with the Catholic church with some things and feels they should not have a say-so in certain aspects of his life.

If I have to suffer here on earth in order to achieve Heaven sooner, bring it on! Anyway, what about emotional suffering? The pain of grief is emotional and physical - should we allow suicide for that too?

Flip side of that question. Since you’ve said “bring it on!” If some one intervened to minimize your suffering have you been wronged in any way?

Grief is both emotional and can lead to physical sensations and psychosomatic illnesses. But it’s not necessarily terminal. This person is already terminally ill. And the person’s suffering will likely cause further grief from friends and loved ones. Do you think it would be possible to convince the terminally ill person to cancel his request and take a different stance?

 

[atheistgirl]

Natural death. We cannot hasten it, and I think we cross a moral line of we delay it.

Natural death is delayed every minute of every day on a global scale, thanks to medical interventions.

Are you suggesting the parents that rushed their son to the ER with a burst appendix, that was successfully removed, have behaved immorally?

Are you suggesting the dentist who treated a gum infection, that would, if left untreated would eventually kill the person, has behaved immorally?

If you’ve ever taken an antibiotic, you’ve delayed your death.

Are you seriously suffesting these are immoral actions?

Sarah x

 

[Nimzovik]

Tinking Sapien Wrote: “Okay, so with the above being said if a person is in serious pain and wants a morphine drip are you saying it would be to the person’s benefit to deny them access to the morphine and allow the person to experience the full magnitude of their pain?”

That would be up to the person whom is experiencing the pain.
Said person may choose to offer it up for the Holy Souls in purgatroy or perhaps for the conversion of sinners. He/she may not so choose. Quite simple really.

In terms of offering one’s suffering up for the salvation for souls - is there a **better **way to understand suffering in this world?

 

[Nimzovik]

**Thinking Sapien wrote: “**While the person preparing for his own death is Catholic I get the impression that his view isn’t in total agreement with this since he’s requesting that some one truncate the final protracted suffering from his living experience. He’s already stated that he’s not in total agreement with the Catholic church with some things and feels they should not have a say-so in certain aspects of his life.”

Nimzovik Responds.

Yes, it appears you are quite correct,apparentl, he is not in perfect conformity with the will of Holy Mother Church or the will of Our Lord if said person were to request to be assisted in suicide.

Ergo if said person, if in full possesion of his faculties, willfully participated in committing the murder of himself, then said person would be committing a sin.

I personally would not want that on my conscience at the Judgement seat.

Will said person go to hell? You would have to ask Our Lord that question.

My turn.

Would you allow someone to commit assisted suicide if the person in question were depressed? Would you allow a person to kill themselves if they were recently divorced and felt that life were not living?

 

[Nimzovik]

Feel free to count me among those that don’t see suffering as having a benefit. Especially for one that is in the process of going through a slow death.

Yes… That succinctly delineates the Atheist perspective or perhaps, the Non- Catholic perspective.

So. How does your philosophy explain or deal with acute or general suffering?
Is there any value in suffering at all according to your lights?

 

[po18guy]

I’m not quite sure I follow you here. Isn’t saving a life the same as delaying death? Organ transplants and many media treatments were developed to postpone what would otherwise be a natural death.

In either case is one’s quality of life a concern or consideration?

Sometimes it is simple and sometimes not. Saving a life is an act of love, since one may risk their own life in the attempt. We are speaking of a person in a house fire, and not someone at the end of life on their death bed.

Disease is not a part of the natural aging process. It can be morally fought against, so as to preserve life that is clearly not at its end. As well, life is a gift and eps may be taken to preserve it that do not require heroism or extraordinary means.

 

[po18guy]

Natural death is delayed every minute of every day on a global scale, thanks to medical interventions.

Humans possess the ability to love. It is out of love that we care for one another. You may call it ‘natural death.’ I don’t. Think “Coroner’s report” here. If it lists anything other than “natural causes”, it may be morally prevented. Starvation and disease can lead to death, but they can occur at any point of one’s life, and love demands that we seek a remedy. The natural aging process is irreversible and we are foolish to try to combat that. Do yo see the difference? When the dying process is irreversible, that is a natural death.

Are you suggesting the parents that rushed their son to the ER with a burst appendix, that was successfully removed, have behaved immorally?

Not at all.

Are you suggesting the dentist who treated a gum infection, that would, if left untreated would eventually kill the person, has behaved immorally?

Not at all.

If you’ve ever taken an antibiotic, you’ve delayed your death.

Not death from aging.

Are you seriously suffesting these are immoral actions?

Not at all.

 

[po18guy]

Feel free to count me among those that don’t see suffering as having a benefit. Especially for one that is in the process of going through a slow death.

It is all about one’s world view. We believe that Christ suffered to redeem us and purchase for us the reward of eternal life in the next, yet to be revealed world. By our baptism, we become parts of Christ’s mystical Body on earth. Just as Christ’s suffering was offered to God for the redemption of mankind, so also can our suffering be offered to God for redemptive purpose - for our own, or for others. By our baptism, we are partakers of the Divine nature, and so may also offer our suffering to God for eternal benefit. By this world view, cancer has become a blessing. If I was taken back four years and given the choice, I would choose to have cancer. I am much more appreciative of life than I was four years ago. Life is not perfect, but then it does not last forever on this earth. I look forward with great hope to the next world.