Required Marital Sex

[Phemie]

Catholic couples MUST be procreative and unative after marriage. There is a legal expectation of the couple to do so.

No, by mutual consent couples can opt not to have sex.

There is a consecration for perpetual virginity. The acquiring of old age and lack of interest would not break the marriage covenant, as that is a natural consequence.

The rule basically goes… if a man is impotent he cannot marry. if a man becomes impotent after marriage it does not violate marriage vows unless there are no children and the wife desires children.

Please tell us what you mean by that. There is no ‘violation of the marriage vows’ if one becomes impotent after marriage, whether or not there are children already. It’s a sad situation but not a ‘violation’.

he also can’t take viagra.

Says who? Medication to correct ED, is not forbidden by the Church.

if a woman refuses to attempt to have children the covenant is nulled. if she is found to be barren the covenant can be opted out of. marriage exists primarily for the sake of children.

Infertility, on the part of either spouse, is not a cause for nullity unless there was knowledge of such before the wedding and that knowledge was withheld from the other spouse. Then there might be a case for lack of consent.

 

[tuviskazinai]

Well then, sounds like some work is in order for their marriage to be all that it can be. Love is a choice. Love is an act of our will, not just our emotions. It is totally possible for someone to fall “out of attraction” and back into it again…with the same person. God gave us the will to do that. We have to choose it.

I agree, basically, but saying “love is a choice” can be risky – because what part of love is willed? I don’t think we can choose to fall back into attraction. (Although maybe that’s not how you meant it – and certainly we can choose to go to marriage counseling or something, which may help.)

Just one thought; and I am not married, so I certainly can’t claim expertise here! But many people have suggested that if the husband isn’t satisfied, he will be tempted to adultery. Fair enough…although I think it also deserves to be said that if the wife is always having sex imposed upon her (no matter how tenderly or respectfully), she too could be tempted – not towards adultery, but towards bitterness, resentment, or simply feelings of revulsion towards or alienation from her spouse, who she might rightfully imagine just doesn’t understand how she’s feeling. And that can be damaging to a relationship, too…no?

If paying off the marital “debt” were like making sandwiches or doing jumping-jacks something, then of course she could be expected to do it without complaint, because it wouldn’t require much of her. But her emotions are deeply involved in such an intimate act, even if she is not full of passion. You are right that love is not all about emotions, but we can’t deny that they exist and exert a powerful influence on us. I’m not saying the couple shouldn’t seek counseling, but if she is going to try to change things, then might it not help for her husband to be there by her side, supportive, sacrificing something himself by abstaining from sex until they can figure things out together? It seems to me (but again, what do I know) that if they are later on able to repair their relations, then that solidarity and respect could help her greatly to love and respect and be attracted to him again…?

Just a thought from an out-of-his-league 23-year-old.

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[ARFF]

I agree, basically, but saying “love is a choice” can be risky – because what part of love is willed? I don’t think we can choose to fall back into attraction. (Although maybe that’s not how you meant it – and certainly we can choose to go to marriage counseling or something, which may help.)

Just one thought; and I am not married, so I certainly can’t claim expertise here! But many people have suggested that if the husband isn’t satisfied, he will be tempted to adultery. Fair enough…although I think it also deserves to be said that if the wife is always having sex imposed upon her (no matter how tenderly or respectfully), she too could be tempted – not towards adultery, but towards bitterness, resentment, or simply feelings of revulsion towards or alienation from her spouse, who she might rightfully imagine just doesn’t understand how she’s feeling. And that can be damaging to a relationship, too…no?

If paying off the marital “debt” were like making sandwiches or doing jumping-jacks something, then of course she could be expected to do it without complaint, because it wouldn’t require much of her. But her emotions are deeply involved in such an intimate act, even if she is not full of passion. You are right that love is not all about emotions, but we can’t deny that they exist and exert a powerful influence on us. I’m not saying the couple shouldn’t seek counseling, but if she is going to try to change things, then might it not help for her husband to be there by her side, supportive, sacrificing something himself by abstaining from sex until they can figure things out together? It seems to me (but again, what do I know) that if they are later on able to repair their relations, then that solidarity and respect could help her greatly to love and respect and be attracted to him again…?

Just a thought from an out-of-his-league 23-year-old.

Peace,
+AMDG+

Absolutely! I agree with all of your comments. It is a very logical response to resolve this human emotional behavior. Many people find conflict in being themselves in life, in the pursuit of happiness while trying to please God practicing true Catholicism.

I really appreciate all of you who are responding to my inquiry on this website. I am fascinated by the diversity of opinions and responses. I am passing all of the information on to my friend. She needs a lot of support in her current situation and is looking for answers. I believe she has indeed “fallen out of love” and is trying to live her life while not carrying a tremendous amount of guilt as a Catholic. She is too guilty to talk with a priest or her husband about her true feelings and how this situation is not easily resolved by being religiously correct.She is constantly praying to God for guidance and forgiveness.

 

[ARFF]

How do you define enjoyment? Do not answer that.
The point here is perhaps an evalution of what your expectations are.
Lovemaking is to be always both unative and procreative.
Unless he or she has an actual physical detrement incurred after marriage
I couldn’t imagine not wanting to be joined physically to their love.

The lovemaking for her is NOT for the purpose of being unitive nor for the purpose of procreation. It is only to fulfill her religious obligation. For men, it is easy to show that we are not interested in the intimacy, for women it is much more easy to perform the act without the spouse knowing the true feelings of the other.

 

[tuviskazinai]

Incidentally, as long as your friend is looking for words of support…!

Well, the other day I visited an amazing traveling exhibition that consisted of clips from a couple thousand filmed interviews with people from all around the world, all walks of life – from shepherds in Mali to investment bankers on Wall Street – giving short, 60-second responses to a whole host of questions: what is your earliest childhood memory, tell us about your first experience with love, etc. You get the idea. Anyway, there were so many powerful, soul-baring moments. One, which I remember quite well, is a middle-aged man from Chicago, who seems very reserved and pensive, responding to the “love” question. He takes several seconds to respond, then says in a very slow, measured voice: “Well…my wife and I married 23 years ago…and two years ago, we fell in love.”

I guess this is just to say to your friend that there is hope that things will get better…no emotional situation lasts forever, and this is not likely to be an eternal burden…it may just require patience. If her religion is very important to her – which clearly it is, and that’s great – then hopefully she can view marriage not just as an “obligation” but as a source of hope…? That may be one way for her to “practice Catholicism” without feeling she has to be ashamed of a certain lack of feelings or submit herself to a trial that seems impossible to bear…

Anyway, hopefully at some point she feels comfortable talking to her husband, a priest, a therapist…people who know more than we do… Meanwhile, I am sure that you can tell her as well that we are all praying for her and her husband!

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[Becks]

From what I can infer here, both the woman and the man are in bad situations. The woman seems to be beginning to resent her husband and her marriage because she is forcing herself to do things she doesn’t enjoy; on the other side, I can almost guarantee you that the man is unhappy with this arrangement. He is always having to ask his wife for sex (she never initiates) and he can tell that she doesn’t enjoy it (unless he is deliberately choosing not to).

I think it’s wrong to opine about what she should do or what he should do, rather, what should THEY do. This is a marriage and the marriage should come before either one of them individually. The first thing that THEY should do is communicate. However they decide to resolve the situation is irrelevant. The important thing is that THEY (as opposed to HE, or SHE) decide where to go from here.

 

[JLSamuel818]

Let’s look at what St. Paul wrote in his first letter to the Corinthians:

Now concerning the thing whereof you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer; and return together again, lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency.

(1 Cor 7)

Don’t forget Ephesians 5; 21-28

“Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.”

“…lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency.” Does this mean you will be tempted to have an extra marital affair?

There is always temptation. Were not a perfect being, and even looking at another woman with lust is a sin.

All and all, a wife should be happy making love to his husband, as the husband to his wife. Though the wife should be subordinate, so too the husband to his wife.

With this said, if I was married, I would not force my wife to have sex.

 

[DavidPalm]

The lovemaking for her is NOT for the purpose of being unitive nor for the purpose of procreation. It is only to fulfill her religious obligation. For men, it is easy to show that we are not interested in the intimacy, for women it is much more easy to perform the act without the spouse knowing the true feelings of the other.

Looks like maybe I got the gender of the OP wrong too. I guess it never occurred to me that people of the opposite sex would be having such an intimate conversation. ARFF, may I respectfully suggest that if you’re a guy then it would be a lot less risky for both of you if your friend was sharing this with a woman? This kind of scenario has ended up in adultery about a gazillion times before. Please be very prudent.

 

[ARFF]

From what I can infer here, both the woman and the man are in bad situations. The woman seems to be beginning to resent her husband and her marriage because she is forcing herself to do things she doesn’t enjoy; on the other side, I can almost guarantee you that the man is unhappy with this arrangement. He is always having to ask his wife for sex (she never initiates) and he can tell that she doesn’t enjoy it (unless he is deliberately choosing not to).

I think it’s wrong to opine about what she should do or what he should do, rather, what should THEY do. This is a marriage and the marriage should come before either one of them individually. The first thing that THEY should do is communicate. However they decide to resolve the situation is irrelevant. The important thing is that THEY (as opposed to HE, or SHE) decide where to go from here.

I agree Becks. I have told her that she needs to tell him how she feels. She is too afraid of the problems that will ensue. Catholicism does not allow for a married person to “fall out of love”. The only reason for annulment is infidelity. It is sad to think that if a person tells his/her spouse, “I don’t love you the way I used to anymore” they are stuck in the marraige “until death do us part”. Even if they both feel the same way! She does not believe that counseling will change her mind. It is not an option. Her heart tells her how she feels. She prays for devine inspiration. She is a very good Catholic but is caught in a marital situation that makes her unhappy and is helpless to effect a change without causing more pain and suffering for her and her spouse. The only thing she can do is accept the blame because it is her feelings that have changed in the relationship. She is reluctantly paying the price for her change of heart.

 

[ARFF]

Looks like maybe I got the gender of the OP wrong too. I guess it never occurred to me that people of the opposite sex would be having such an intimate conversation. ARFF, may I respectfully suggest that if you’re a guy then it would be a lot less risky for both of you if your friend was sharing this with a woman? This kind of scenario has ended up in adultery about a gazillion times before. Please be very prudent.

Thanks for your concern. I am married and a good friend. We have known each other a very long time.

 

[kage_ar]

The lovemaking for her is NOT for the purpose of being unitive nor for the purpose of procreation. It is only to fulfill her religious obligation. For men, it is easy to show that we are not interested in the intimacy, for women it is much more easy to perform the act without the spouse knowing the true feelings of the other.

Ohhh, that changes things.

Unless you are her Priest, doctor or therapist, as a man your best advice to her would be to speak with her Priest, doctor or therapist. This is not a conversation that should cross gender lines between friends.

 

[ARFF]

Ohhh, that changes things.

Unless you are her Priest, doctor or therapist, as a man your best advice to her would be to speak with her Priest, doctor or therapist. This is not a conversation that should cross gender lines between friends.

Where do we draw a line on conversation? What scripture limits the sharing of information between persons who care about each other? We are supposed to love our enemies as we love Christ? Please explain your reasoning. Respectfully, I disagree. My friendship is important to her to support her and help her through this. I can only try to give her good information and point her in the right direction. Getting involved shows that you are genuinely concerned for a person’s well being and happiness. She does not want to speak with her Priest because she attends mass regularly with her husband and does not want the Priest to know about her problems. It is too embarrassing for her. She already knows what his response would be. “Seek counseling”.

 

[JLSamuel818]

Where do we draw a line on conversation? What scripture limits the sharing of information between persons who care about each other? We are supposed to love our enemies as we love Christ? Please explain your reasoning. Respectfully, I disagree. My friendship is important to her to support her and help her through this. I can only try to give her good information and point her in the right direction. Getting involved shows that you are genuinely concerned for a person’s well being and happiness. She does not want to speak with her Priest because she attends mass regularly with her husband and does not want the Priest to know about her problems. It is too embarrassing for her. She already knows what his response would be. “Seek counseling”.

Encourage her to see a priest anyway. Understand that priests most likely have heard it all. And priests do offer counseling behind closed doors if wished.

With respect, I urge you not to take the place of a priest to counsel her. If you do, I strongly advise you to go to a priest anonymously and tell him the situation. So that he may guide you properly and the correct course of action, devout prayer.

With grace and love.

 

[ARFF]

Encourage her to see a priest anyway. Understand that priests most likely have heard it all. And priests do offer counseling behind closed doors if wished.

With respect, I urge you not to take the place of a priest to counsel her. If you do, I strongly advise you to go to a priest anonymously and tell him the situation. So that he may guide you properly and the correct course of action, devout prayer.

With grace and love.

I agree. I could never claim to have the expertise in this as a Priest. I am not a professional psycologist or marraige counselor. Just a close friend who cares. I have encouraged her to write an anonymous letter to the Priest if she does not want to meet with him and fears discovery. I don’t think she will. It is too personal and she could not tolerate the embarrassment and guilt of explaining her feelings. Besides, I don’t think her Priest would respond in writing to an anonymous letter. I could not help but agree with her when she told me that she believes that he would give her a “politically correct” answer to pray together and seek counseling.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Where do we draw a line on conversation? What scripture limits the sharing of information between persons who care about each other? We are supposed to love our enemies as we love Christ? Please explain your reasoning. Respectfully, I disagree. My friendship is important to her to support her and help her through this. I can only try to give her good information and point her in the right direction. Getting involved shows that you are genuinely concerned for a person’s well being and happiness. She does not want to speak with her Priest because she attends mass regularly with her husband and does not want the Priest to know about her problems. It is too embarrassing for her. She already knows what his response would be. “Seek counseling”.

The possibility of emotional adultery is a great concern here, that is what we are saying.

 

[ARFF]

The possibility of emotional adultery is a great concern here, that is what we are saying.

I am not familiar with the term “Emotional Adultery”. I have never received any instruction from the church in this area. Is there scripture I can refer to?

 

[Becks]

I agree Becks. I have told her that she needs to tell him how she feels. She is too afraid of the problems that will ensue. Catholicism does not allow for a married person to “fall out of love”. The only reason for annulment is infidelity. It is sad to think that if a person tells his/her spouse, “I don’t love you the way I used to anymore” they are stuck in the marraige “until death do us part”. Even if they both feel the same way! She does not believe that counseling will change her mind. It is not an option. Her heart tells her how she feels. She prays for devine inspiration. She is a very good Catholic but is caught in a marital situation that makes her unhappy and is helpless to effect a change without causing more pain and suffering for her and her spouse. The only thing she can do is accept the blame because it is her feelings that have changed in the relationship. She is reluctantly paying the price for her change of heart.

I just wanted to clarify that the communication that I was speaking of was in regards to what to do about the sex situation, not in regards to divorce. I think you (or maybe the woman that we are talking about) have a distorted view of love. Love is a decision that we make every day. Some days it is easier for me to decide to love my wife than other days. I don’t think it’s sad that someone is “stuck” in a marriage until death because that’s what they signed up for when they agreed to get married. Remember, the vows say in good times and in bad.

Most importantly, the Church’s teachings on marriage were not invented by man, they were given to us by Christ himself. As such, who are we to disagree?

 

[Corki]

Where do we draw a line on conversation? What scripture limits the sharing of information between persons who care about each other? We are supposed to love our enemies as we love Christ? Please explain your reasoning. Respectfully, I disagree. My friendship is important to her to support her and help her through this. I can only try to give her good information and point her in the right direction. Getting involved shows that you are genuinely concerned for a person’s well being and happiness. She does not want to speak with her Priest because she attends mass regularly with her husband and does not want the Priest to know about her problems. It is too embarrassing for her. She already knows what his response would be. “Seek counseling”.

Please don’t get defensive. I am sure no one here meant to suggest that you shouldn’t continue to support her and be there for her as a friend.

But ultimately, this is a problem that is internal to the marriage. If, eventually they work it out, her husband may feel bad about the intimate details of their marriage being discussed with you. Men tend to have different “lines” they draw between “girl talk” and gossip than we do.

Your friend has two problems that by themselves cannot co-exist. She does not want to have sex anymore with her husband and she doesn’t want to talk to him. There will need to be movement on one or both issues before there can be resolution. She could just “wait it out” but you have indicated that you believe that it is bad for her to keep submitting. So, I think your support in that effort might be less than wholehearted.

So that leaves medical or therapy /counseling of some sort. So there is no real way around the fact that someone else needs to be involved - either a doctor or some kind of marriage therapist/counselor.

Be her friend, support her, but don’t be a crutch. I am sure you want your friend to be happy. She doesn’t sound happy now and you can’t really fix that for her. Help her find someone who can.

 

[Corki]

Catholicism does not allow for a married person to “fall out of love”. The only reason for annulment is infidelity. It is sad to think that if a person tells his/her spouse, “I don’t love you the way I used to anymore” they are stuck in the marraige “until death do us part”. Even if they both feel the same way!

Since you and your friend are both Catholic, I just want to clear up one thing from this post. Catholicism does not really recognize the condition of falling in or out of love as an element of marriage. Marital love is based on more than emotion and is a choice that the couple make for each other and thier family.

No one loves thier spouse the way they used to after a few (or more) years of marriage. But you are correct that changes in marital emotions are not grounds for a couple to separate according to the Church. There are many reasons that the Church does recognize that it may be best for a couple to separate but emotion isn’t one of them.

The Church does not consider infidelity as grounds to find a marriage null. Annulity is based on what the conditions were at the time of the marriage, not what sins were committed later.

 

[JLSamuel818]

I am not familiar with the term “Emotional Adultery”. I have never received any instruction from the church in this area. Is there scripture I can refer to?

St. Paul first letter to the Corinthians.

*“The husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband. A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife. Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.”
*

Here, implies you could be tempted if your wife does not satisfy the husband after a time. Says Satan may tempt the man, whether in his heart, body, soul or mind. Satan could just put an attractive woman right in front of the deprived male.

And Jesus said “You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

[Mathew 5; 27-28]​

Deprived lustful man + attractive female walking = a bad day for him.

With God’s Grace.