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Tedster
Guest
Maturity goes a long way in an adult discussion.
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aspawloski4th
Guest
Maturity also goes both ways. when I am treated maturely I’ll return in kind.Maturity goes a long way in an adult discussion.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Genetically you are a male.Well, I’m a girl no matter what you think, I just have different genitalia than most girls.
If you are living as a female and everyone thinks you are a female then there is scandal whether or not you wish to admit it.Also, now, I live with my ex-boyfriend, not my boyfriend. I have chosen a relationship with Jesus and I broke up with my ex-boyfriend out of love. There is no scandal in the eyes of the Church for I accept the Catechism, Scripture, and Dogma and I do not falter. Since Doctrine is ever changing, I accept what makes the most logical sense. Presumptions are pointless and a waste of time and energy, so I cannot fathom as to why individuals have them.
If you accept the Catechism then you must accept that.
I posted the relevant paragraphs and do so once again (you ignored them or at least did not comment on them when I posted them the first time).
2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.
As you can see in paragraph 2285, the scandal is grave when it is committed by those who are to teach others, as a youth minister does.
No one can know your heart but they can know your actions, you say that you accept “the Catechism, Scripture, and Dogma and I do not falter” yet you chose to ignore these paragraphs of the Catechism. So do you truly live them and accept them? It does not appear so in your posting here.
The problem here is that you say you accept them but chose to live in a situation that can cause scandal as no one can truly know what you do in private. Add to this that you live with an ex-boyfriend which would cause scandal if you were a female but if people know that you are a male and live with an “ex-boyfriend” that causes even more scandal.
As I said, I would stand with any pastor that says you can not be a youth minister, if I was a parent I would not allow my child to participate in any youth ministry you were a minister in. No one has a right to serve in a ministry and those who can cause scandal should not do so at all.
I am sorry and feel for you and will continue to pray for you but this is the way it must be to uphold what the Church Teaches.
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aspawloski4th
Guest
Wow splitting hairs to prove honesty. Maria I think you had better get your official title for her. Oh wait a minute you parish might not even have one. Just wondering would you believe if it if Maria told you the sky is blue?Now, awhile back, when asked about qualifications, etc. you admitted that you were NOT a youth minister but volunteered in some capacity.
Which is it? Are you paid on the pastoral staff of a Parish as Youth Minister?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Except I provide proof of what I am saying or state that it is what I would do, both of which are not defined as hearsay.Ok I say everything you say is hearsay! We are equil.
You on the other hand provide information that you expect us to take with out providing any proof of, you say it is something you were told, that is the definition of hearsay.
How true!Maturity goes a long way in an adult discussion.
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aspawloski4th
Guest
While scandal is sinful you are not the final authority on scandal. I brought up earlier in this thread that the church does say some sexchanges are ok, it that is true then you are saying church is approving of scandal some of the time.Genetically you are a male.
If you are living as a female and everyone thinks you are a female then there is scandal whether or not you wish to admit it.
If you accept the Catechism then you must accept that.
I posted the relevant paragraphs and do so once again (you ignored them or at least did not comment on them when I posted them the first time).
2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.
As you can see in paragraph 2285, the scandal is grave when it is committed by those who are to teach others, as a youth minister does.
No one can know your heart but they can know your actions, you say that you accept “the Catechism, Scripture, and Dogma and I do not falter” yet you chose to ignore these paragraphs of the Catechism. So do you truly live them and accept them? It does not appear so in your posting here.
The problem here is that you say you accept them but chose to live in a situation that can cause scandal as no one can truly know what you do in private. Add to this that you live with an ex-boyfriend which would cause scandal if you were a female but if people know that you are a male and live with an “ex-boyfriend” that causes even more scandal.
As I said, I would stand with any pastor that says you can not be a youth minister, if I was a parent I would not allow my child to participate in any youth ministry you were a minister in. No one has a right to serve in a ministry and those who can cause scandal should not do so at all.
I am sorry and feel for you and will continue to pray for you but this is the way it must be to uphold what the Church Teaches.
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MariaTS
Guest
People choose to presume, I do not lead them to do such. We never had sex or any related thing and us living together is not for any illogical or sinful reason. I understand that if individuals are presuming, then they are, in fact, the true scandal. Also, Doctrine, as I said, is ever changing, so current teaching on scandal may or may not be true. Why would me, a girl with different genitalia than most girls, living with my ex-boyfriend be any different than a “normal” girl living with her boyfriend? People don’t presume scandal or sin when it’s a “normal” girl so why should they when its an “abnormal” girl? So, why the double standard?All I can think is what you have told us thus far on this thread. Sorry if I have not understood what you have said. If it is different from my statement, let me know where I am wrong.
And that is cause for scandal, regardless of yours/his sexual orientations. If there are people who knew you where boyfriend/girlfriend, boyfriend/boyfriend, etc, there is cause for scandal.
Sorry, educate yourself on what the Church teaches about scandal and you will see otherwise.
Most people don’t presume anything that you don’t say or show them to be reality. If you are a male living as a female, with an ex-boyfiend, there is MUCH reason for people to presume. In doing so, they may sin, thus scandal on your part. Leading others to sin is part of the sin of scandal.
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kage_ar
Guest
Doctrine NEVER changes. Never. Same since the beginning of time, same forever.Since Doctrine is ever changing, I accept what makes the most logical sense.
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Tedster
Guest
The sin of scandal is laid upon the one who causes another to sin.People choose to presume, I do not lead them to do such. We never had sex or any related thing and us living together is not for any illogical or sinful reason. I understand that if individuals are presuming, then they are, in fact, the true scandal.
Wow. This is a perfect example of why I would not allow you to educate young people. Is anything the Church teaches true?Also, Doctrine, as I said, is ever changing, so current teaching on scandal may or may not be true.
It’s not, that’s exactly why it is scandalous.Why would me, a girl with different genitalia than most girls, living with my ex-boyfriend be any different than a “normal” girl living with her boyfriend?
Wrong. It is scandalous both ways.People don’t presume scandal or sin when it’s a “normal” girl so why should they when its an “abnormal” girl? So, why the double standard?
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aspawloski4th
Guest
She is mistaking mere teaching for doctrine. An easy mistake for a young mind to make, even I did when I was her age, 18. Some church techings change. If they didn’t we would still believe the Earth was the center of the universe.Doctrine NEVER changes. Never. Same since the beginning of time, same forever.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Did you show this by Church document?While scandal is sinful you are not the final authority on scandal. I brought up earlier in this thread that the church does say some sexchanges are ok, it that is true then you are saying church is approving of scandal some of the time.
That is not my main concern with scandal though, my main concern with scandal is the appearance of a “female” living with a male that “she” is not married to. Great scandal would be if it was known that the “female” is really a male living with an ex-boyfriend.
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aspawloski4th
Guest
I was addressing the part where you complain about her still being a male and living as a female.Did you show this by Church document?
That is not my main concern with scandal though, my main concern with scandal is the appearance of a “female” living with a male that “she” is not married to. Great scandal would be if it was known that the “female” is really a male living with an ex-boyfriend.
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kage_ar
Guest
Odd how you and your pal must stoop to childish reasoning when someone challanges you.Wow splitting hairs to prove honesty. Maria I think you had better get your official title for her. Oh wait a minute you parish might not even have one. Just wondering would you believe if it if Maria told you the sky is blue?
Words MEAN SOMETHING, titles mean something.
If a person volunteers at a hospital and that does not make them a medical professional.
If someone volunteers at a parish, that does not make them part of the pastoral staff. Dioceses have very clear job descriptions and guidelines. For instance, a youth minister must be of a certain age, they must be a practicing Catholic, they must have passed extensive background checks, they must be educated, they must live a life that is in keeping with a Catholic.
The Church has job descriptions and clear guidelines.
I have never claimed to be a youth minister. I am a volunteer. You will not find any case of me making any other claim. As a volunteer, there are guidelines and rules that govern my behaviour and interaction with children and young people.
You want to know my title? It is Volunteer Catechist. My Diocese has me on record as such.
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kage_ar
Guest
That, however is NOT a mistake a paid youth minister can make. Again, their level of education and catechesis is a job requirement.She is mistaking mere teaching for doctrine. An easy mistake for a young mind to make, even I did when I was her age, 18.
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kage_ar
Guest
It is ALWAYS scandal for an unmarried, unrelated “couple” to cohabit.Why would me, a girl with different genitalia than most girls, living with my ex-boyfriend be any different than a “normal” girl living with her boyfriend? People don’t presume scandal or sin when it’s a “normal” girl so why should they when its an “abnormal” girl? So, why the double standard?
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aspawloski4th
Guest
Ross Allen Hoffman, 11 grade church history class West catholic HS 1984 /1985 school year.Again, without proof of such a thing this is hearsay and not evidence of anything.
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aspawloski4th
Guest
As I understand she is a volunteer.That, however is NOT a mistake a paid youth minister can make. Again, their level of education and catechesis is a job requirement.
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Tedster
Guest
But not a mistake that a Youth minister should make. Imagine making that same statement to a 15 year old youth, and the consequences and decisions it would lead that youth to. That youth may never accept the Church’s teachings in doctrinal matters.She is mistaking mere teaching for doctrine. An easy mistake for a young mind to make, even I did when I was her age, 18.
Any person in a leadership role should not be uninformed about their faith. There is a lot to learn before one can teach others.
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kage_ar
Guest
Ummm, the pope you claim authorized this DIED in 1954, how could he have approved soemthing that took place three decades later?Ross Allen Hoffman, 11 grade church history class West catholic HS 1984 /1985 school year.
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kage_ar
Guest
Because of the Protecting God’s Children/Safe Enviornment regs in every US Diocese, an 18 year old may be a member of the youth group. They may not be a volunteer until age 21 (25 for some Dioceses). All of these guidelines are available from the respective Youth Ministry offices.As I understand she is a volunteer.
This is to discourage any appearance of or development of untoward affection or romance between kids in youth ministry and the volunteers.
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