Resources - Qu'ran as a linguisitc miracle?

[rweidn]

I am doing something of a study of Islamic theology and spirituality. There are many claims by Muslims as to the linguistic miracle of the Quran as a whole. I am trying to make an informed view on the authenticity of these claims. Does anyone know of any good web resources where these claims are examined. Really I would like non biased resources, ideally not Muslim sites that obviously voice a pro view or Christian sites which do the opposite. Anyone know of any, or has anyone ever studied this at any length.

 

[7_Sorrows]

No. I am sorry, but I don’t have a clue where to send you. Sounds like an interesting topic though.

 

[Contarini]

I am doing something of a study of Islamic theology and spirituality. There are many claims by Muslims as to the linguistic miracle of the Quran as a whole. I am trying to make an informed view on the authenticity of these claims. Does anyone know of any good web resources where these claims are examined. Really I would like non biased resources, ideally not Muslim sites that obviously voice a pro view or Christian sites which do the opposite. Anyone know of any, or has anyone ever studied this at any length.

If the claims are allegedly verifiable, then I’m sure they can be refuted. But the claims as I’ve seen them are too subjective to verify. My response to them tends to be, “once I learn Arabic I will see if I agree with you”!

Edwin

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Whatever the case, the Quran is an incredible literary document. The language is elegant and complex at the same time. There are many beautiful prayers as well. For the Arabic language it has the same status and importance as the works of Shakespeare or the King James Bible have for the English language. Translations have been tried but never come close to the original.
Already 1400 years old, its syntax is still relevant to modern Arabic and a unifying factor for Muslims all over the world, similar to the manner Latin as a learned tongue, used to be for centuries uniting the Christian world.

 

[Cheiron]

I am doing something of a study of Islamic theology and spirituality. There are many claims by Muslims as to the linguistic miracle of the Quran as a whole. I am trying to make an informed view on the authenticity of these claims. Does anyone know of any good web resources where these claims are examined. Really I would like non biased resources, ideally not Muslim sites that obviously voice a pro view or Christian sites which do the opposite. Anyone know of any, or has anyone ever studied this at any length.

Ultimately, it comes down to preference. Personally, I think Greek and Roman plays, speeches and literature are far superior to the Quran. They’re better written, wiser, more intelligent and more beautiful than the Qu’ran. The Greeks and Romans were centuries ahead of the rest of Europe and of the Arabs.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I am doing something of a study of Islamic theology and spirituality. There are many claims by Muslims as to the linguistic miracle of the Quran as a whole. I am trying to make an informed view on the authenticity of these claims. Does anyone know of any good web resources where these claims are examined. Really I would like non biased resources, ideally not Muslim sites that obviously voice a pro view or Christian sites which do the opposite. Anyone know of any, or has anyone ever studied this at any length.

It’s totally arbitrary, Muslim Arabic scholar claims the Quran is the best linguistically (whatever that means) and attempt to justify this in a circular manner. The fact that the “Arabic” used in the Quran borrows heavily from Syriac, seems not to have affected this perception. It would be like claiming New Orleans French is THE PUREST MOST ELEGANT French, both complex and simple. Um… says who? I say the number 0 (zero) is the greatest, most elegant, wonderfulest, fluffiest number, please prove me wrong.

 

[arthra]

There are a lot of resources online such as sites where you can listen to the Quranic Arabic and of course to appreciate the Qur’an you need to learn Arabic. I taught an informal class on the Qur’an for some months a few years ago… and asked people to read the Fatiha in Arabic…

quran.com/1

and begin to recognize the Arabic letters and so forth.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

There are a lot of resources online such as sites where you can listen to the Quranic Arabic and of course to appreciate the Qur’an you need to learn Arabic. I taught an informal class on the Qur’an for some months a few years ago… and asked people to read the Fatiha in Arabic.
quran.com/1
and begin to recognize the Arabic letters and so forth.

Indeed, no one has the right to talk about the Arabic of the Quran unless they have some knowledge of it. While not an expert, I do know some Arabic and can testify that on the basis of literary merit alone, the Quran is very high indeed. Western scholars of the Middle Ages and Renaissance did not scorn it and in fact studied Arabic and Hebrew as well.

 

[MotC]

Indeed, no one has the right to talk about the Arabic of the Quran unless they have some knowledge of it. While not an expert, I do know some Arabic and can testify that on the basis of literary merit alone, the Quran is very high indeed. Western scholars of the Middle Ages and Renaissance did not scorn it and in fact studied Arabic and Hebrew as well.

Then can you explain why the English translation comes across so badly. Every time I asked for an explanation of a particularly bad verse or literary negativeness the answer I got was I need to understand Arabic? Yet with the Bible the translation from the Koine Greek may not be perfect but there is no mistaking the overall purpose of Christs message.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Then can you explain why the English translation comes across so badly. Every time I asked for an explanation of a particularly bad verse or literary negativeness the answer I got was I need to understand Arabic? Yet with the Bible the translation from the Koine Greek may not be perfect but there is no mistaking the overall purpose of Christs message.

I really don’t have any answer why it is so difficult to translate the Quran. One reason may have to do with the difference in culture, meaning you can accept translations from Greek because the message is closer to our own culture.

*"But among them is he who says, “Our Lord, give us in this world [that which is] good and in the Hereafter [that which is] good and protect us from the punishment of the Fire.”

He will forgive for you your sins and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow and pleasant dwellings in gardens of perpetual residence. That is the great attainment."*

As a Christian, I have no problem with the above. Right now I am busy but can search up some really impressive ayas that unfortunately sound much better in Arabic but whose message can be appreciated by anyone.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I really don’t have any answer why it is so difficult to translate the Quran. One reason may have to do with the difference in culture, meaning you can accept translations from Greek because the message is closer to our own culture.

*"But among them is he who says, “Our Lord, give us in this world [that which is] good and in the Hereafter [that which is] good and protect us from the punishment of the Fire.”

He will forgive for you your sins and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow and pleasant dwellings in gardens of perpetual residence. That is the great attainment."*

As a Christian, I have no problem with the above. Right now I am busy but can search up some really impressive ayas that unfortunately sound much better in Arabic but whose message can be appreciated by anyone.

That is a very beautiful verse… very similar to the hymns of St. Ephrem and songs of St. Jacob of Sarug. Ironic(?) that both these individuals are from the same region, influenced Islam and predate Muhammad.

St. Jacob or Serug paraphrasing St. Dionysius (marquette.edu/maqom/Serug.html):

*The place is empty, for it is filled with divinity…

And had [angelic]fire ascended to it, [that fire] would have been burnt up by

His Breath…

It is not for the spirits or luminaries to be surrounded by Him,

And neither radiance nor honor enters to live with Him.

Nor does the glory of anything created come nigh Him.

The place is sublime…

The Trinity transcends the word of everything that speaks,

The divinity is in a place far from all inquirers,

The Father begetting and the Son begotten and the living Spirit:

The Being Whose place no one knows, save He alone.* (601:9-602:5)

 

[MotC]

I really don’t have any answer why it is so difficult to translate the Quran. One reason may have to do with the difference in culture, meaning you can accept translations from Greek because the message is closer to our own culture.

*"But among them is he who says, “Our Lord, give us in this world [that which is] good and in the Hereafter [that which is] good and protect us from the punishment of the Fire.”

He will forgive for you your sins and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow and pleasant dwellings in gardens of perpetual residence. That is the great attainment."*

As a Christian, I have no problem with the above. Right now I am busy but can search up some really impressive ayas that unfortunately sound much better in Arabic but whose message can be appreciated by anyone.

As SyroMalankara implies many of the Quranic verses have parallels with either Judaism or the Gospel of Christ or his followers. This must be true if both are to be accepted as the word of God. Whether a person believes the latter to be plagiarized or God repeated himself to a different people is up to the person. I don’t have an issue with peaceful God loving Muslims who tend to live more like Christians but I’ve had numerous debates trying to understand how people deal with the very serious theological/philosophical errors in the Quran. However I’m not sure what ‘linguistic miracle’ means? In what way? Ability to impart the exact message of God? Sorry It doesn’t do a very good job! Poetry? Maybe, but possibly copied as stated. History? Many of the verses are consistent with historical accounts but I wouldn’t consider it something to boast about. It paints a very dark picture of the prophet.
When asked why he spoke in parables, Jesus answered "The reason I speak to them in parables is that “seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not listen, nor do they understand.” The people who compiled the Quran seem not to understand the use of allegory or metaphor. To me I would say “nice try” But far from what I would consider a literary miracle. Linguistic seems to imply only to the language of origin but one would expect a good translation to be close.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Thanks MotC and Syro Malankara. Since I am studying Arabic, I am naturally interested in the linguistic source of the Quran. I wasn’t aware of the hymns of St. Ephrem and songs of St. Jacob of Sarug but they seem like a good place to start.

Nothing, or hardly anything in literature or art comes out of a void and one could make the case for religion, too. The ground is prepared in some way, the history of Christian feasts such as Christmas and Easter as a case in point. As for say the plays of Shakespeare, he improved on what was already there, existing stories and actual language.

That’s why a “deus ex machina” explanation doesn’t convince me. A whole literary corpus could not have just appeared out of nowhere. Moreover, there is another problem as the medium gets mixed up with the message. Literalists have a hard time seeing what’s communicated, rather focused on the means of communication, the words, because they are so bound up with them. This can be a problem for Bible believers as well, who are not able to separate the literal and allegorical.

 

[Contarini]

Then can you explain why the English translation comes across so badly. Every time I asked for an explanation of a particularly bad verse or literary negativeness the answer I got was I need to understand Arabic? Yet with the Bible the translation from the Koine Greek may not be perfect but there is no mistaking the overall purpose of Christs message.

The “overall purpose” of the Qur’an was not under discussion here. Its literary quality was. Koine Greek was the version of Greek used for practical purposes, often by people for whom Greek wasn’t their first language. It was what in Africa, I believe, is called a “trade language.” And of course both the NT in particular and Greek in general have been a major part of our culture for a long time.

Some kinds of texts, and some kinds of language, are particularly hard to translate because their meaning depends so much on the metaphor, the wordplay, etc. A lot of the OT is hard to translate for this reason, though, again, we certainly have English translations that are beautiful and powerful.

Muslims, of course, would say that the Qur’an can’t be translated precisely because it really is the Word of God in its original language, and God’s words can’t be translated without becoming something lesser.

Edwin

 

[MotC]

The “overall purpose” of the Qur’an was not under discussion here. Its literary quality was. Koine Greek was the version of Greek used for practical purposes, often by people for whom Greek wasn’t their first language. It was what in Africa, I believe, is called a “trade language.” And of course both the NT in particular and Greek in general have been a major part of our culture for a long time.

Some kinds of texts, and some kinds of language, are particularly hard to translate because their meaning depends so much on the metaphor, the wordplay, etc. A lot of the OT is hard to translate for this reason, though, again, we certainly have English translations that are beautiful and powerful.

Muslims, of course, would say that the Qur’an can’t be translated precisely because it really is the Word of God in its original language, and God’s words can’t be translated without becoming something lesser.

Edwin

With reference to “the overall purpose of the Quran” I was not intending to broaden the discussion especially in the direction of a negative way. I was only intending to point out that to make a ‘general’ statement that ‘text A’ is a linguistic miracle, one would expect that a person fluent in "text A’ language should be able to demonstrate something close to linguistic beauty in another language. If not then one can only claim parts. And in this event the overall cannot be claimed as a miracle. The same applies to the Bible. The teachings of Jesus Christ, literal and allegorical, are what I would consider as “literary” miracles in their beauty and soul touching way as only Jesus is perfection. However in their ‘original’ written forms possibly not “linguistic” miracles. later saints, theologians, popes in their encyclicals etc have put the original messages into better linguistic form. However as stated before I’m not sure of the purpose of the claim of linguistic miracle.
Muslims believe that the Bible is corrupted and that the Quran is the protected inerrant word of God. They are entitled to that belief but I’m 100% sure that they are wrong. I am keenly interested in theology and hold no malice to those with different views, there is so much to be learned in discussions of differences. And so there is no intention to be offensive, many Muslims are very God like people.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

With reference to “the overall purpose of the Quran” I was not intending to broaden the discussion especially in the direction of a negative way. I was only intending to point out that to make a ‘general’ statement that ‘text A’ is a linguistic miracle, one would expect that a person fluent in "text A’ language should be able to demonstrate something close to linguistic beauty in another language. If not then one can only claim parts. And in this event the overall cannot be claimed as a miracle. The same applies to the Bible. The teachings of Jesus Christ, literal and allegorical, are what I would consider as “literary” miracles in their beauty and soul touching way as only Jesus is perfection. However in their ‘original’ written forms possibly not “linguistic” miracles. later saints, theologians, popes in their encyclicals etc have put the original messages into better linguistic form. However as stated before I’m not sure of the purpose of the claim of linguistic miracle.
Muslims believe that the Bible is corrupted and that the Quran is the protected inerrant word of God. They are entitled to that belief but I’m 100% sure that they are wrong. I am keenly interested in theology and hold no malice to those with different views, there is so much to be learned in discussions of differences. And so there is no intention to be offensive, many Muslims are very God like people.

As beautiful as the Bible in the original or translations may be, the works of truly great writers such as Shakespeare, the deeply spiritual music of JS Bach, they are not attributed to direct dictation from the divine. Still, the words and notes have to be filtered through human beings and the culture of the time. This in itself is a guard against taking the Bible literally. Otherwise, if there were not rules and proscriptions for certain times like the protocol of the Levites, or animal sacrifice, we may be just doing them today.

There is a difference between the military campaigns in the Old Testament against the Canaanites, who were after all, performing child sacrifice, in that these were limited to time and place. The issue with certain verses of the Quran, for instance, strictures against Kaffirs, or non-believers, can be interpreted to apply them in the present. When these are held to be the absolute word of God, it is a big problem.

 

[MotC]

As beautiful as the Bible in the original or translations may be, the works of truly great writers such as Shakespeare, the deeply spiritual music of JS Bach, they are not attributed to direct dictation from the divine. Still, the words and notes have to be filtered through human beings and the culture of the time. This in itself is a guard against taking the Bible literally. Otherwise, if there were not rules and proscriptions for certain times like the protocol of the Levites, or animal sacrifice, we may be just doing them today.

There is a difference between the military campaigns in the Old Testament against the Canaanites, who were after all, performing child sacrifice, in that these were limited to time and place. The issue with certain verses of the Quran, for instance, strictures against Kaffirs, or non-believers, can be interpreted to apply them in the present. When these are held to be the absolute word of God, it is a big problem.

Thanks that was the point I was trying to make. To be a linguistic miracle it should contain no parts that can be read in a way which is not intended. The love of the kafir should show in all parts not just some. Is it more specific in Arabic?

 

[rweidn]

What about the claims that the divine hand is shown in the text by the number of times certain words are used, for example the words day and night both apparently appear 365 times, the word week 52 times, other opposite words such as satan and angels used the same amount of times, whole sentences that are palindromes, the word ‘middle’ appearing in the middle of surahs. There’s loads of this stuff on YouTube, seems to be an area that is being pushed by Muslims. It probably does impress, must admit I had always treated the Quran as a no more than a literary classic because I don’t believe God to be a dictator and therefore I don’t believe He dictates books. But I am intrigued by these claims. Are these sort of phenomena found in other works of literature?

 

[Cheiron]

What about the claims that the divine hand is shown in the text by the number of times certain words are used, for example the words day and night both apparently appear 365 times, the word week 52 times, other opposite words such as satan and angels used the same amount of times, whole sentences that are palindromes, the word ‘middle’ appearing in the middle of surahs. There’s loads of this stuff on YouTube, seems to be an area that is being pushed by Muslims. It probably does impress, must admit I had always treated the Quran as a no more than a literary classic because I don’t believe God to be a dictator and therefore I don’t believe He dictates books. But I am intrigued by these claims. Are these sort of phenomena found in other works of literature?

Historically, the Middle-Eastern peoples considered the art of writing as a gift from the divine, which is understandable in a time when a very small portion of the population was literate. The Egyptian god Thoth was the god of wisdom, magic and… writing. The mythological Book of Thoth was a book that supposedly contained spells to talk with animals and see the gods. An other Middle-Eastern people, the Jews consider their Torah holy and it needs to be read with a ‘Yad’. This belief in the power of the book as the ultimate source of truth is also reflected in the oath that people take when in court of becoming a public official.

The idea of ‘holy books’ and a divine or divinely inspired content is a very old idea and nothing new.

 

[August_Carlson]

Zamyrabyrd writes: “Nothing, or hardly anything in literature or art comes out of a void and one could make the case for religion, too. The ground is prepared in some way, the history of Christian feasts such as Christmas and Easter as a case in point. As for say the plays of Shakespeare, he improved on what was already there, existing stories and actual language.”

I think that this does a disservice to Shakespeare. His collected works present a vocabulary of 27,800 different words (see: passthrough.fw-notify.net/download/907281/http://www1.cmc.edu/pages/faculty/welliott/Shakespeare%20Vocabulary%20Chapter%20911.pdf) for details). He used more words than the King James Version of the Bible and the works of John Milton (Paradise Lost and Found) combined. He was a lexical inventor who (according to some scholars) had at least 1700 unique words attributed to his pen. His literary phrasing was also unique, deeply striking, memorable and poetic.He was a giant of the English Language. Yes, he borrowed from his predecessors, but his contribution was undoubtedly unique.

If the Qu’ran’s beauty is not translatable in English, the fault probably lies in the hands of the translators. It is not an impossibility to transfer meaning from one language to another. I’ve seen, for instance, beautiful translations in English of poetry from China’s Tang Dynasty period (618-907 AD) – and this without any cognates or loan words from the Mandarin. Similarly, ancient Hebrew and English are very different, yet I have read wonderful English translations that capture the intent, meaning and “meat” of the original (Robert Alter’s Five Books of Moses is an exemplary example). Perhaps a good English translation of the Qu’ran exists – I’ve just never read one. I find it highly suspicious that God, when He chooses to speak, only speaks the Arabic of the 7th century – that’s not very accommodating of Him, is it? And I find it rather imperious that there are Muslims who insist that this is so.