Responding to my friend

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I don’t understand why people always insist that since there are so many different religions, we are all believing in completely different Gods.

We aren’t believing in different Gods. We’re believing in the Creator, but we all have varying descriptions of Him.

The atheist idea that we all believe in completely separate Gods and that only one religion is true while all others are completely false is just naive.
Respectfully, I think this is false. I repeatedly hear Christians claim that people of pagan faiths are actually worshiping demons. If they are worshiping supposed demons, then it cannot be that at the same time they are believing in the one creator and just misrepresenting him.

I don’t believe that they are worshiping demons (at least unknowingly, there are people who say outright they worship demons) but I do not think they are all worshiping the same god under different descriptions. Nor do many of them. ( I know a lot of people outside of Judeo Christian faiths)

For a monotheist who is certain there is only one god, it might be a logical conclusion that therefore anyone who has a religion must be worshiping it, even erroneously. For polytheists they are quite clear about the fact that the gods they worship is not the same as the gods others worship.

God himself made similar statements in the Old Testament, He was very clear that others worshiped false gods, he never said “ah, go easy on them, their worshiping me, just a bit confused”.
 
The idea is to use B. F. Skinner’s claims as bait, and not give any hint of Chomsky’s rebuttal. At some point, either there will be resistance, or one particular atheist organism will spontaneously generate verbal behavior about his or her atheism ultimately being based on a random combination of genes and environment.
I doubt this will work. Most atheists don’t consider evolution, or any other thing that happens in the Universe random. If they did, there would be no point in using the scientific method. The whole idea behind it is that the Universe is not random, therefore studying and coming to understand it’s laws and patterns is a fruitful pursute.

The fact that a person is standing in front of them telling them they believe the Universe is random, is basically the flip side of Christians being told they have no evidence of their god. If you make a false claim about the belief of the other, the conversation goes nowhere.

In fact many Christians USE SCIENCE as proof of god. If you claim miracles are proof, and the proof of miracles is that the scientific method and information gleaned by using the scientific method had not been able to explain miracles…you’ve just declared faith in the scientific method. If it was untrustworthy, then it would be pointless to drag it out to prove your faith.

The scientific method doesn’t fall back on the use of a belief in a god as proof of it’s position.

Basically what I am saying is the pulling out the miracle argument can often backfire if you depend on science to prove it.
 
Most atheists don’t consider evolution, or any other thing that happens in the Universe random.
Let us suppose that we select 3 yes/no questions for which the answers are supposed to be kept secret by powerful governments. Suppose we pose the questions to 8000 people chosen by some (inevitably non-random?) method. Each combination of answers to the three questions can be put into one of eight categories.

If we get approximately 1000 people giving all three correct answers, then we would normally consider the possibility that this can be explained by random chance. Do you for some reason want to persuade me that this is a misrepresentation of somebody’s point of view? It does not even seem to me that this issue has any connection with atheism.
If they did, there would be no point in using the scientific method.
If we are talking about statistical significance and I refer to a 95% confidence level, then is there no point in using the scientific method?

What is the role of randomization procedures used in double-blind testing of some pharmaceutical? Is it possible that randomization procedures are actually methods for successfully predicting who recovers from some illness that the pharmaceutical is designed to treat? In other words, is it possible that there is never any causal connection between using the pharmaceutical (rather than a placebo) and signs of recovery that indicate something more than a combination of spontaneous recovery and the placebo effect?

It seems to me that if somebody refuses to accept any notion of an event being random, then it becomes very difficult and perhaps impossible to test for causal connections. If everything is pre-determined, then there could be a pre-established harmony that causes both an action and a reaction. In that case, the action does not necessarily cause the reaction. For example, if I enter 48 + 27 into a calculator, then perhaps the display of the number 75 was not a response to what I entered. What caused me to enter 48 + 27? Whatever caused me to enter those numbers might have also directly caused the calculator to display the number 75, so that the calculator is not responding to what is pressed, but simply appears to be responding to what is pressed.
The fact that a person is standing in front of them telling them they believe the Universe is random
I don’t see how you got this from what I wrote, and I therefore apologize for not expressing myself clearly enough. My intention was to suggest framing issues in a certain way and then waiting for some eventual reaction. I did not intend to suggest that we know in advance what the reaction will be. I described one reaction that seems to me to be merely possible, and I did not intend to suggest that it is inevitable.

Note:
One alternative to random chance is that approximately 1000 of those 8000 people have access to what is supposed to be classified information. However, that alternative to random chance seems to me to be a good example of a hypothesis that is very easy to think of but very difficult to justify. This train of thought could bring us to a discussion of the art of bluffing. This train of thought also suggests that there could be people who actually have access to top secret information and who deliberately gave at least one incorrect answer, and that they are hiding among approximately 7000 people of the 8000 who were tested.
 
Making the claim that a supernatural being exists is un-falsifiable , but claiming that this being interacts with nature is not. We can use science to examine these claims and none of them turn out to be supernatural (the claim is made that the wafer turns into jesus’s flesh, we can easily test this) .Why do miracles described in the bible ( like the earth stopping to rotate in Joshua ) no longer occur today where we have video cameras and satellites to observe and verify it ?"
This is untrue. There is a continous history of miracles from biblical times to our own. Eucharistic miracles, incorruptible bodies and Marian apparitions. The evidence is available to everyone.
 
New to site . Watching and appreciating .

I’m math major . Graduated probably before many of you were born. By graduation I hated math and anything that had to with it . went in a different direction and never looked back .

Here is my two cents . if you’re going to acknowledge science , if you’re going to acknowledge that the world built according to laws of physics then the existence of a providential provider is unavoidable, un escapable conclusion , else you have no idea what you’re talking about .

the only time that unavoidable conclusion was challenged it was by the genius Steven Hawkins when he presented work and arguments that the universe is losing information. This caused such a commotion among physicists. The law of conservation of energy was being undermined. Big deal in physics . that was back in the 70s .that was like a bomb shell . physicists scrambled, the brightest minds out there , to counter attack. Some years later , around 15 years later they presented formulation that disproved Hawkins. Hawkins hired a PhD major to examine the formulation. I saw the work .major headache …would take few years to verify .but apparently it was okay because he backed off . then Hawkins a few years ago came up with another pronouncement which is that there is no god because there is a law called gravity conceding by implication that there is a providential provider . so there is no god but there is a god called gravity . gravity did all this .

In the beginning there was the word , the word was with god and the word was god. The word is logos , reason/animating principle , etc . if an Hawkins is saying that the Word is gravity then we can come to a mutually agreeable understanding. Like for example , you keep working at it Hawkins and when you finally figure out all roads lead to the word you let us know .

The Father and the son relationship presumes duties and obligations. Did these rules precede the relationship or did they occur after the relationship or at the inception of the relationship. Obviously for all of us the rules preceded the relationship except in the case of god the father and god the son . in that case the word was with god and the word was god .I’m come to complete the law he said .trust me when I tell you that you can’t carry those duties and obligation to their fullest without him. For this he was born.
Frankly young folks all that atheism talk seems so boring/irrelevant to an old man like me . I’m busy trying to figure ways to feed Christian African refugees and figure ways for them to be able to feed themselves so they do not become dependent . thrill is gone . I’ve moved to bigger and better things. You know the other day I was sitting on this bench when a blind toddler , a little thing walked up to me and struggled to climb on the bench and then he laid his head on my lap and went to sleep. Who is gravity now , heh ? I am gravity . I’m gravity itself . go tell Hawkins that .

hey you want to get gravitional like me let me know. I hook you up. its fun and good to bump heads intellectually, its youth . but there is work to be done . come to africa .
 
Let us suppose that we select 3 yes/no questions for which the answers are supposed to be kept secret by powerful governments. Suppose we pose the questions to 8000 people chosen by some (inevitably non-random?) method. Each combination of answers to the three questions can be put into one of eight categories.

If we get approximately 1000 people giving all three correct answers, then we would normally consider the possibility that this can be explained by random chance. Do you for some reason want to persuade me that this is a misrepresentation of somebody’s point of view? It does not even seem to me that this issue has any connection with atheism.
There is functional “random” and absolute random.

The situation you describe is functional random. If we were to follow up on why those people gave the responses they did (and the likelyhood of getting anything like the percentages you suggest in a sample size of 8000 is extremely unlikely), there are reasons for them choosing the answers they did.

It appears random on one end if no follow up is done, but things are never ultimately random.

People use the term random more and more these days to describe things that are in no way ACTUALLY random. The less one examines a thing, the more random it appears.

If suddenly over dinner I interrupt the normal conversation and ask if you recall a certain episode of the Pink Panther cartoon, you might remark “well, that’s random” seeing as we were talking about car financing, but likely if you asked why I came up with this, I could tell you what jogged the thought.

Once, while I was teaching science, I gave a large number of dice to a large number of students and had them toss the dice and record the results. People consider dice rolls to be fairly random. Over tens of thousands of roles it became clear that was not absolutely the case. If you toss the same die 1000 times you might find out that a particular die tends to roll four more often than the other numbers. If one then investigates the die one might find there is a slight imperfection or imbalance in the distribution of weight or density in the die. There is a reason that it rolls four more often than predicted by “random” chance.

Random is a concept used to describe an idea. There is no ultimate and absolute randomness. there is always something behind the something behind the something.

Some people believe that something to be god. Fair enough. That does not make the only other option “random chance”.

This is where the invisible Pink Unicorn example comes in. If we can assign causality to something we have no empirical proof of, than it could be God, or an invisible Unicorn, or some force or attraction within the Universe that we are not able to perceive or measure

.Scientists sometimes do the latter and have a theoretical explanation for something that they use as a basis for further inquiry. Without some empirical proof, without some clear and obvious pattern one cannot clearly say that X is the absolute cause and force.

I posit that many believers use the concept of god in the same manner.

In the end believers and unbelievers find there are many questions they cannot really answer.

Similarly, given human nature, people of both camps often assert that given time, all will be answered by that which they put their faith in.
 
As to what proof would convince the atheist that God exists, the best answer I have heard is that the atheist doesn’t know, but if there is an omniscient creator God, then that God would know what proof would convince the atheist. The atheist’s conclusion from this view is that either God does not exist, or that the God chooses not to provide convincing proof.
I’m really surprised I haven’t come across this point before. It does seem to suggest that God wants no (name removed by moderator)ut as to whether someone believes or not. And I’m not even sure that you could use the term ‘want’ as far as He is concerned. Maybe ‘indifferent’?
 
Simply put, the atheist does not see God because he does not want to see God.

It wouldn’t matter how much proof you offered. Even a miracle he would explain as delusional.

And if the miracle happened to him, he might begin to question his own sanity.

Since the atheist will not soften his brain, God tries to soften his heart.

If that does not work, the blame is on the indifferent atheist, not the indifferent God.
 
A probability of an event is the number of possible ways that event occurs divided by the number of all events possible. If you toss a coin the probability of a tail is half, 50% . you toss a coin there are two possible outcomes. Tail one outcome. Divide one by the total outcomes possible which is two and you get half.

Lets say you tossed the coin ten times you got tail all the ten times . when you toss the coin again the probability of a tail is still 50% and of head is 50 %. You toss the coin again and you still get tail, the probability of a tail and head is still half . This is math as they taught to me back in the day .

will not believe the number of factors affecting the act or rolling dice , slight imperfections, force of throwing, surface irregularities , angle throw , position of hand . this just the simple stuff affecting the throw . Regardless of those factors math says if you calculate the expectation as you roll the dice , the calculated figures after a large number of rolls approaches the expectation mean . in practice you will see that to be pretty true … if the dice doesn’t behave that way then its not dice. refer to manufacturer

important to have as accurate understanding of mathematical technical terms as possible . they are not literal English words. in the casino note what they mean by expectation when they talk about the slot machine could help .fexample, the expectation in blackjack is 1.7% last I know . not very good , right ? i do not gamble.

Kids are very smart . they hit you with something like …. what if the coin when you toss it rolls on its edge and stands on its edge . I teach orphans sometimes and some of them are smart .i pass the question to the rest of class . answer the question you get extra dates when we eat. get them excited . I like to laugh . they make me laugh .

There is method you can resolve this “discussion” . it was developed by Christian monks centuries ago . its probably responsible for quiet bit of western progress in science and humanities . it requires a highly practiced hands involving devices of thoughts . way beyond my qualification to describe . In an extremely simplified form it resembles the law of procedural pleading where all questions are agreed upon by the parties in a dispute and all the answers to those questions are agreed upon by the parties making it possible to resolve dispute successfully as a matter of rule or fact .

it would help if everyone agrees on the claims , have common understanding of the claims and narrow them down .people can not be said to agree or disagree if they’re not talking about the same thing .The claim is that the laws of physics necessitate that there be a providential provider . no providential provider throw those physics laws out the window . note I did not say god. I did not say Jesus .

we agree on that then we move to Christianity . example, you get up in the morning you turn the switch of your car , the car starts . its obeys physical laws . things are working okay with the car , the engine runs. Car is okay you turn the switch and car doesn’t start , that is a miracle . complicate matters all the way to as far as a chaotic system and the system does obey rules. It’s bounded for one .

no miracles and only science what it does is prove a providential provider . you do not want a providential provider you’ve to start believing in miracles .

Christians get questioned because they affirm miracles / supernatural when the atheist position itself is based on an affirmation of a miracle . the miracle that there is no providential provider .

if you want to posit an infinite irregularity of nature as an affirmation that it is impossible for a thing to be of which you/ nature are not a mode , then you will aslo have affirmed a providential provder and not only that but everythiing else too besides. you went far an beyond any religion to a brave new world where no man has gone before .

I work with orphans and widowed mothers . don’t want money from you or anything like that .infact I believe poverty and want for the most part is self made. Want you to pick an orphan or widowed family and be big brother /sister to them … you will act honorably . I lived in the west for some time. Lot of honorable good people there with empathy for their fellow human beings . it will be good for you. You want all that freedom you enjoy to last ? . one day Africans might just help cover your back. The cries to limit your freedom are getting louder and louder . you were not born in a vacuum. Great westerners before you from all walks of life sacrificed much to bequeath you that freedom. Do not let any feelings you have towards Christianity stop you fulfilling your role as a westerner and passing freedom to posterity . lets work together . we can you know. We’re not so bad. You’re not so bad. It makes sense too if you think about it . there should be balance . it might do you to keep your Christians to balance things out . you will need us. On the battle field we will be there up front marching forward in valley of shadow of death without fear .i promise whenever that day come we will be there for you.

you know what is honorable thing ? maybe it is you help us be better christians and we help you be better athiests . Jesus says those who are not against us are with us . sure you’re okay with a lot of Jesus’ teachings . we have common basis to work together . don’t you agree ? well then, lets do it .

P.S do not take my word for all that math references . forgot a lot .also my brain is old

In Christ
 
I’m really surprised I haven’t come across this point before. It does seem to suggest that God wants no (name removed by moderator)ut as to whether someone believes or not. And I’m not even sure that you could use the term ‘want’ as far as He is concerned. Maybe ‘indifferent’?
It does sound a bit apathetic. But this is getting closer to a classical deistic god-concept.
 
…]it would help if everyone agrees on the claims , have common understanding of the claims and narrow them down .people can not be said to agree or disagree if they’re not talking about the same thing …]
You might be surprised to see the frequency of discussions attempted in which people don’t have agreement on terms. A discussion can go on for many pages of disagreement before it’s realized the participants don’t quite have the same thing in mind.
 
will not believe the number of factors affecting the act or rolling dice , slight imperfections, force of throwing, surface irregularities , angle throw , position of hand . this just the simple stuff affecting the throw . Regardless of those factors math says if you calculate the expectation as you roll the dice , the calculated figures after a large number of rolls approaches the expectation mean . in practice you will see that to be pretty true … if the dice doesn’t behave that way then its not dice. refer to manufacturer
That’s the point, there is ALWAYS a “manufacturer” , there is always something that ultimately effects the result. There are no perfect dice except in the mind of a mathematician. Random is a concept, a useful concept, but ultimately not absolutely applicable to reality.

Some believers refer to the anomalies as miracles and say they are proof of god.

This makes sense because yes anomalies have a cause, and that cause can be assigned to god. Whether or not the cause is “god”…is another matter. But both the believer and the non believer agree on one thing…SOMETHING caused the occurrance.

The universe is not random, and things happen for a reason.

Lots of things used to be attributed to god that have since been found to have more mundane explanations.

This doesn’t mean that god doesn’t exist or isn’t active, but there is a rather long laundry list of things that were once attributed to god/gods/goddesses that have a very material explanation.
 
you know what is honorable thing ? maybe it is you help us be better christians and we help you be better athiests . Jesus says those who are not against us are with us . sure you’re okay with a lot of Jesus’ teachings . we have common basis to work together . don’t you agree ? well then, lets do it .

In Christ
I agree, we ultimately are all in this together, we share the same planet and are the same species and it matters more to focus on our common fate than on differences in philosophy.

Looking for patterns rather than anomalies
 
You don’t have an unpopular view with me, I was just going to post exactly that and you beat me to it.

If I have no investment in changing the other person’s mind, or any ego investment in them conceding to me, then it doesn’t matter.

I know people with ego investments if all kinds of things, the other day I had a friend argue that their dog was show quality even though it’s a mixed breed.

There are, of course, arguments worth having, and points worth supporting when something more important than ego is at stake. And if a true concern for the immortal well being of someone’s soul is behind the argument, then yes, the burden of proof is on the person who has the concern.

If an atheist doesn’t have a concept of soul, a belief in immortality or hell they aren’t concerned about it, therefore the one who is, is the one who has to step up.
Those who aren’t concerned in the slightest about whether they are immortal cannot have much intelligence - or be using it! It’s hardly an insignificant matter…
 
I personally feel the burden of proof is on the person that wants to convince another. If I hold a belief and I don’t care if anyone else is convinced of it then to me there is no burden. But I may have an unpopular view on that.
If we don’t care whether others agree with what we believe we cannot care much about them or about what we believe. It amounts to cynicism…
 
As a former catholic and current atheist myself. I have had discussions with my advisor in college who is a devout Christian while also highly valuing science. Science and religion are two separate things. Science deals with the natural world and by definition cannot deal with anything considered supernatural. Heck, science used to be called natural philosophy.

One thing I think a lot of people have misconceptions about is that atheists are trying to deconvert everyone. A lot of atheists, like myself, ask a lot of questions to make you question yourself and why it is that you believe something. I do not see anything wrong with asking someone why they believe something. I will be respectful as long as they are respectful as well. Most atheists do not make the claim that there is no God, some do, but the vast majority don’t. Most of us are not like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, etc. it’s not that we are making a claim, it’s more like saying that if they were jurors and people were bringing forth evidence of God’s existence, they would have to say they’re not convinced. They’re not saying he doesn’t, just that they don’t think he does.

One thing to remember is also that there are multiple different ways of trying to understand the universe. You have science which tests, observes, experiments, etc. in order to make sense out of it. You have religion which tries to explain what the meaning of life and philosophical stuff like that is, and you have TEK which is knowing how to do things or what to do in different situations. For example, I highly appreciate science but at the same time, if I was lost in the jungle and I had the option of being with a scientist who knows a bunch of facts or a native with TEK, you better believe I’d choose the native to keep me alive.
Can science explain whether our personal survival is more important than anything else in life?
 
Charlemagne III, the approach that you suggest probably will not be useful. Most atheists do not make the claim that God does not exist. More likely the OP’s friend has the more normal atheist position, which is simply the rejection of the claim that God exists because there is insufficient evidence. So the theist is left with the burden of proof because the atheist is not making any claim. As to what proof would convince the atheist that God exists, the best answer I have heard is that the atheist doesn’t know, but if there is an omniscient creator God, then that God would know what proof would convince the atheist. The atheist’s conclusion from this view is that either God does not exist, or that the God chooses not to provide convincing proof.
The atheist is implicitly making the claim that the universe has a physical cause. Otherwise he has no rational basis for rejecting belief in God.
 
As to what proof would convince the atheist that God exists, the best answer I have heard is that the atheist doesn’t know, but if there is an omniscient creator God, then that God would know what proof would convince the atheist. The atheist’s conclusion from this view is that either God does not exist, or that the God chooses not to provide convincing proof.
A better explanation - which tallies with a previous post by an atheist on this thread and corresponds to the prevailing secular mentality - is that no matter how convincing the proofs are, the atheist isn’t even interested in the subject, let alone concerned. For many the question doesn’t even arise…
 
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