Response to a non-viable pregnancy

  • Thread starter Thread starter Binary
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
1ke said:
Yes, that is exactly what it is-- an abortion.

This is a LIVING baby. The plan is to kill the baby. That is abortion.

Yes, it is a grave wrong. Yes, the Church teaches this is wrong.

Then pray for her.

It is wrong to kill this child. Yes, they will be grieving if the child is indeed only lives a short while after birth due to his/her condition. But, this child is a person, and they must be respected and treated with dignity and allowed to live and die a natural death. Killing thid child will not bring peace. Their child can bring them joy even if only for a short time.
I suggest resources from Priests for Life.
Click to expand...
You are correct in what you are saying about Church teaching in this scenario. But let’s not kid ourselves here. There is nothing joyful about this, and for you to suggest there is trivializes the torments to which the parents of this child are subjected.
 
RyanBlack said:
You are correct in what you are saying about Church teaching in this scenario. But let’s not kid ourselves here. There is nothing joyful about this, and for you to suggest there is trivializes the torments to which the parents of this child are subjected.
Click to expand...
The parents and family members of these children would disagree with your assessment:

anencephalie-info.org/e/index.php
 
wanner47 said:
Please encourage your family to check out benotafraid.net/ for stories of other families in this exact situation. These families made the brave, wonderful choice to carry and love their babies as long as possible, both in and out of the womb.

It sounds like your niece/nephew has been diagnosed with Anencephaly. Here are the specific stories relating to that condition:

benotafraid.net/stories.asp?filter=Anencephaly

Here is the blog of a woman whose daughter was diagnosed with anencephaly at 19 weeks gestation:

babyfaithhope.blogspot.com

This mother carried to term and delivered her daughter, who lived for an amazing 3 months and 4 days before she peacefully passed away in her mother’s loving arms. Pretty amazing for a baby with “no brain,” isn’t it?
Click to expand...
I encourage you to spend more time in the real world. My family is already somewhat anti-Catholic, and for them this decision is a matter of course. Tell me, what good would come of me telling my sister that she is about to be guilty of murder? I’m pretty sure I would be unwelcome at her house and a few others, indefinitely, but I’m having trouble seeing the silver lining.

While I have great respect for the strength of faith and love of the parents you mention, I don’t see anything amazing about the choice. Anacephallic babies will never learn, never love, never know anything. They are incapable of having any form of relationship with their mothers, who (I have no doubt) love them no less because of it. The church is obligating parents to provide material needs to what is essentially a shell for a soul that has no need of them, can make no fruitful use of them.

At the same time, you can’t just kill a baby, or anyone. I understand the teaching, but this whole situation is garbage. There is no good that can come of any of this. Maybe I’m supposed to think that the soul of this child will intercede for my family, but that seems like the long way around the fence. Prohibitively long, even.
 
Binary said:
I encourage you to spend more time in the real world.
Click to expand...
Excuse me? I just provided many examples of families “in the real world” who have dealt with this issue in a way that doesn’t involve killing an innocent child because s/he was less than perfect.
My family is already somewhat anti-Catholic, and for them this decision is a matter of course. Tell me, what good would come of me telling my sister that she is about to be guilty of murder? I’m pretty sure I would be unwelcome at her house and a few others, indefinitely, but I’m having trouble seeing the silver lining.
Click to expand...
That’s why you speak the truth in love, and let her know that you will be there to love and support her every step of the way. But loving and supporting her does not mean condoning a bad choice.

Read the stories at benotafraid.net. Those brave families – not all of whom are Catholic – chose to love their babies as long as possible, and derived great joy from doing so.
While I have great respect for the strength of faith and love of the parents you mention, I don’t see anything amazing about the choice. Anacephallic babies will never learn, never love, never know anything. They are incapable of having any form of relationship with their mothers, who (I have no doubt) love them no less because of it. The church is obligating parents to provide material needs to what is essentially a shell for a soul that has no need of them, can make no fruitful use of them.
Click to expand...
Again, you need to read some of the stories at that site. The experience of these families is just the opposite of what you describe. I think it’s you who are living in some sort of bleak, depressing world instead of seeing that situations like this can bring joy as well as sorrow.
At the same time, you can’t just kill a baby, or anyone. I understand the teaching, but this whole situation is garbage. There is no good that can come of any of this. Maybe I’m supposed to think that the soul of this child will intercede for my family, but that seems like the long way around the fence. Prohibitively long, even.
Click to expand...
Again, good can come of this. Read the stories at benotafraid.net, I beg you, so you can see that love and joy CAN EMERGE from painful situations like this. Read the story of Baby Faith Hope, who lived for three months and brought nothing but joy to the family and friends who surrounded her with love for her entire short life. She brought joy to her mother that still lives in her heart two years after her daughter’s death.
 
I can’t seem to find the article at the moment, but I recently read something that talked about how “brain death” is not indicative of death but simply a term that was invented to justify harvesting organs. 🤷

I’m not sure how true that is, but it might be something you want to look into considering your position seems to hinge on the belief that this baby is already dead because the baby is “brain dead.”

For what it’s worth, I had some close friends who went through this. They carried the baby boy to term and he died shortly after birth. As hard as the situation was all around, they wouldn’t have done it any other way.
 
wanner47 said:
Excuse me? I just provided many examples of families “in the real world” who have dealt with this issue in a way that doesn’t involve killing an innocent child because s/he was less than perfect.

That’s why you speak the truth in love, and let her know that you will be there to love and support her every step of the way. But loving and supporting her does not mean condoning a bad choice.

Read the stories at benotafraid.net. Those brave families – not all of whom are Catholic – chose to love their babies as long as possible, and derived great joy from doing so.

Again, you need to read some of the stories at that site. The experience of these families is just the opposite of what you describe. I think it’s you who are living in some sort of bleak, depressing world instead of seeing that situations like this can bring joy as well as sorrow.

Again, good can come of this. Read the stories at benotafraid.net, I beg you, so you can see that love and joy CAN EMERGE from painful situations like this. Read the story of Baby Faith Hope, who lived for three months and brought nothing but joy to the family and friends who surrounded her with love for her entire short life. She brought joy to her mother that still lives in her heart two years after her daughter’s death.
Click to expand...
I read the first four in the anacephally section, per your request. These people are stronger or better than I am. I can see how someone would be profoundly grateful for being able to spend time with a loved one, even if that time was short and full of suffering. But joyfulness? No.
 
Binary said:
I read the first four in the anacephally section, per your request. These people are stronger or better than I am. I can see how someone would be profoundly grateful for being able to spend time with a loved one, even if that time was short and full of suffering. But joyfulness? No.
Click to expand...
What makes you believe they were not joyful? This family says otherwise:
My water started leaking on August 8th and Lucas Adam was born on August 9,03 at 36 weeks. He weighed 4 lbs and 10 oz and was 17 inches long. He was beautiful! With a cap on he looked like any other baby. He looked like us. He was our baby. He lived for 45 min and died peacefully in his daddy’s arms. Unfortunantly the kids didn’t get there in time to see him alive.** Believe it or not but his birth was joyful as any birth is. There was just as much joy as sorrow.** He stayed over night with me and I put him in his little casket and left the hospital the next morning.
Click to expand...
Why do you think that you (or your family) could not be as strong? With God, all things are possible.
 
Binary said:
I’m going to stop talking or thinking about this for awhile.
Click to expand...
I would urge you to reconsider this in light of the fact that you mentioned the abortion would take place this week. You certainly don’t have to hash it out with us here at CAF, but a call to the National Bioethics center and/or your parish priest would probably be very beneficial.

I just don’t want to see you revisit this topic next week and be filled with regret over not doing more. 😦
 
Joe_5859 said:
I would urge you to reconsider this in light of the fact that you mentioned the abortion would take place this week. You certainly don’t have to hash it out with us here at CAF, but a call to the National Bioethics center and/or your parish priest would probably be very beneficial.

I just don’t want to see you revisit this topic next week and be filled with regret over not doing more. 😦
Click to expand...
I spoke with the priest after mass today, and he said that given my concern that my sister wouldn’t listen to me anyway, I had no positive moral obligation to tell her “hey, I know you’re like, incredibly sad right now, but I just wanted to let you know that what you’re doing is murder.” Now, I know I have no reasonable expectation to avoid ostracization from my family for the sake of the faith, but I’d like to think that if I was, it would at least accomplish something. Is that how it’s supposed to go, or do I have it wrong?

How about I give you her contact information, and then YOU can be filled with regret for not doing more?
 
Binary said:
I spoke with the priest after mass today, and he said that given my concern that my sister wouldn’t listen to me anyway, I had no positive moral obligation to tell her “hey, I know you’re like, incredibly sad right now, but I just wanted to let you know that what you’re doing is murder.” Now, I know I have no reasonable expectation to avoid ostracization from my family for the sake of the faith, but I’d like to think that if I was, it would at least accomplish something. Is that how it’s supposed to go, or do I have it wrong?

How about I give you her contact information, and then YOU can be filled with regret for not doing more?
Click to expand...
Speak the truth in love.

“[Sister], I know this is an incredibly difficult time for you and [Husband], and I want you to know that you are both in my thoughts and prayers. I wanted to share with you some resources I found on the Catholic perspective of situations like yours, in case you’d be interested in exploring different perspectives of families who have been in your situation but have chosen to carry to term. Again, I love you both and am praying for you.”
 
wanner47 said:
Speak the truth in love.

“[Sister], I know this is an incredibly difficult time for you and [Husband], and I want you to know that you are both in my thoughts and prayers. I wanted to share with you some resources I found on the Catholic perspective of situations like yours, in case you’d be interested in exploring different perspectives of families who have been in your situation but have chosen to carry to term. Again, I love you both and am praying for you.”
Click to expand...
“How dare you send me something like this, to make me feel guilty at a time when I’m already vulnerable.”

And then the excoriating phone calls from aunts and uncles, etc. What’s the upside to your plan? What does this accomplish?
 
Binary said:
“How dare you send me something like this, to make me feel guilty at a time when I’m already vulnerable.”

And then the excoriating phone calls from aunts and uncles, etc. What’s the upside to your plan? What does this accomplish?
Click to expand...
Why do you think she would respond that way? :confused:

If she does, apologize, and say that you didn’t intend to hurt her.

What it would accomplish is speaking the truth, which we as Catholic Christians are called to do, even when it is difficult.
 
Binary said:
Please keep my sister and her husband in your prayers. A few days ago they went to get a sonogram to determine the sex of their baby, and (I don’t have the exact details) tests revealed that the baby does not have a brain, or at least, so little brain matter that there is no possibility that it could survive outside the womb.

Sometime this week my sister is planning on having an operation to remove the fetus. I can’t imagine that this would qualify as an abortion or would otherwise be immoral. I doubt my sister cares much for what the church teaches anymore, but if she asks me about it, I’d like to give her an intelligent response on why she was justified in doing what she did. Can anyone help me out?
Click to expand...
It is a horrible situation, no one here can imagine how you feel, clearly. However, you have asked posters on a Catholic forum their opinions, and they are giving you the Catholic Church’s teaching, which is obviously not what you wanted to hear.

You are hurting, that much is clear, but surely you realise that on a Catholic forum you will not find posters who can come up with as you said “an intelligent response on why she was justified in doing what she did.” Sorry but from a Catholic perspective, this is abortion, and therefore we cannot intelligently justify it. We can sympathise yes, but justify it, no.
 
trials said:
It is a horrible situation, no one here can imagine how you feel, clearly. However, you have asked posters on a Catholic forum their opinions, and they are giving you the Catholic Church’s teaching, which is obviously not what you wanted to hear.

You are hurting, that much is clear, but surely you realise that on a Catholic forum you will not find posters who can come up with as you said “an intelligent response on why she was justified in doing what she did.” Sorry but from a Catholic perspective, this is abortion, and therefore we cannot intelligently justify it. We can sympathise yes, but justify it, no.
Click to expand...
What I wanted to hear was the truth, and now I have it. I was foolish to think that this procedure would not be an abortion. My aunt called it a d&c, and I guess due to my emotional state I was inclined to think that under a different name it was morally different. So yes, my sister is killing her child, and that is terrible, and it is good that I at least understand that.

At this point I have to ask, why should I even care? There’s no point in being mad at God, being all knowing and incapable of doing anything wrong. So why not just trust that all the apparently senseless evil in the world actually serves some kind of purpose, instead of trying to puzzle it out and feeling angry? I mean, basically anything I do that is not completely submitting to God’s will is wrong. So here’s what I propose as the ideal form of Christian life: learned helplessness. In case you’re not familiar with it, some psychologists put some dogs in a harness/cage such that they were periodically subjected to shocks, no matter what they did. Eventually they stopped trying to do anything, and just lay there and got shocked. Even when the cage door was open, they didn’t try to escape. Those dogs are our model for Christianity. We should just go through life, taking the shocks, saying our prayers, and never thinking we deserve more than whatever we happen to have, even if that means carrying around a baby who reminds you of his imminent death every time he kicks your stomach. Sound good to everybody?
 
Binary said:
What I wanted to hear was the truth, and now I have it. I was foolish to think that this procedure would not be an abortion. My aunt called it a d&c, and I guess due to my emotional state I was inclined to think that under a different name it was morally different. So yes, my sister is killing her child, and that is terrible, and it is good that I at least understand that.
Click to expand...
It’s probably a D&E, not a D&C, just so you know. A D&C is typically done in the first trimester only. D&Es are the procedure used for second or third-trimester abortions.
At this point I have to ask, why should I even care? There’s no point in being mad at God, being all knowing and incapable of doing anything wrong. So why not just trust that all the apparently senseless evil in the world actually serves some kind of purpose, instead of trying to puzzle it out and feeling angry? I mean, basically anything I do that is not completely submitting to God’s will is wrong. So here’s what I propose as the ideal form of Christian life: learned helplessness. In case you’re not familiar with it, some psychologists put some dogs in a harness/cage such that they were periodically subjected to shocks, no matter what they did. Eventually they stopped trying to do anything, and just lay there and got shocked. Even when the cage door was open, they didn’t try to escape. Those dogs are our model for Christianity. We should just go through life, taking the shocks, saying our prayers, and never thinking we deserve more than whatever we happen to have, even if that means carrying around a baby who reminds you of his imminent death every time he kicks your stomach. Sound good to everybody?
Click to expand...
You and your family are in my prayers during this difficult time.

I recommend Peter Kreeft’s “Making Sense of Suffering” and Fr. Benedict Groeschel’s “Tears of God: Persevering in the Face of Great Sorrow or Catastrophe.”
 
YOU NEED TO WATCH THIS!!! NOW!! YOU MUST WATCH AND FORWARD TO YOUR SISTER NOW! THIS IS A BEAUTIFUL STORY OF A CHRISTIAN FAMILY WHO WENT THROUGH A VERY SIMILAR SITUATION…VERY POWERFUL.

GOD BLESS!
youtu.be/LmJXw5wjTow
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top