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AgnosTheist
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then the next closest kin.What if the husband caused the injury? It might not be known otherwise if just taken his word.
thats where we differ. for you a fertilized egg is a human being. for me a human being is living creature that has the ability for human self-awareness.Well, it is a human being, from conception. I donât think you have made your non-human case very well for a baby in the womb before or after 3 months.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
The fertilized egg has all the attributes of life and is a unique being (creature) from the mother and father having unique dna. If such an organism was found on Mars would you not call it life? Self-awareness is a unreasonable condition to be placed upon the value of human life. An autistic child could be determined to not be self aware but I doubt you are advovcating killing off such members of our society are you?thats where we differ. for you a fertilized egg is a human being. for me a human being is living creature that has the ability for human self-awareness.
Whether that life is a microbe or a human zygote is not the debate, but my distinction is the fact of its human characteristic is what makes it worthy of protection from conception.
Is a human of more or less worth than a kitten, or do you place them equally?
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St.Sebastian
Guest
So you are just ignorant of what is âhuman.â Okay, letâs review. You have 23 sets of chromosomes in every cell in your body for a total of 46 chromosomes that specifically identify you after all the cells come together to form your current body. You hook up with a nice person who has her/his own collection of 46 chromosomes and you subsequently have sexual intercourse that results in the sperm and egg (each with only 23 chromosomes, a very important fact) and that union creates a new cell with, guess what? - 23 new sets of chromosomes that are completely different and distinguishable from either you or your partner! They are 46 distinct chromosomes that represent the very early stage of a new human being who will possess those same chromosomes with unique DNA until that person dies. That cell has distinguishable DNA that identifies it as a different BEING. If a police officer took a sample of any cell in your body and then took a sample of any cell of your partnerâs body and did a forensic DNA analysis, you would each have your own DNA âfingerprintâ If you take that little zygote or embryo forming in the woman and analyze its DNA, you will find it has its very own DNA âfingerprintâ and in very short order will have REAL FINGERPRINTS. And this will really mess up your eugenics head: That DNA âfingerprintâ of a newly fertilized zygote will remain the same until that âhumanâ dies at 101 years old.^ Once you are born you gain human rights. The only excuse to kill you would be if you have committed a heinous crime.
So the question is not whether a child in a womanâs womb is human - that is a biological fact from conception to delivery. The question is: do you care that it is a human and at what point does it have enough value to not be murdered?
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AgnosTheist
Guest
For me, what makes a person/being is the software (mind) not the hardware (brain). A zygote is not a person. Not by a long long shot.The fertilized egg has all the attributes of life and is a unique being (creature) from the mother and father having unique dna. If such an organism was found on Mars would you not call it life? Self-awareness is a unreasonable condition to be placed upon the value of human life. An autistic child could be determined to not be self aware but I doubt you are advovcating killing off such members of our society are you?
Whether that life is a microbe or a human zygote is not the debate, but my distinction is the fact of its human characteristic is what makes it worthy of protection from conception.
Is a human of more or less worth than a kitten, or do you place them equally?
Who said the autistic is not self-aware?
some animals are self-aware, but I said âhuman self-awarenessâ. so we are worth much more than any animal out there.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Once you are conceived, you are a human being, with your own human DNA. You have human rights from conception.^ Once you are born you gain human rights. The only excuse to kill you would be if you have committed a heinous crime.
Human life is sacred.
The right to life is the most fundamental of all human rights. Without a right to life, all other rights are valueless. What good does freedom of speech do a dead man? How can a corpse exercise the right to trial by jury?
The right to life accrues to each of us as a part of our basic humanity. It is as much a part of us as our minds, our personalities, or our arms and legs. It is given to us by no one. It is ours merely because we are living human beings.
There are those who say that âsocietyâ or the government decides when we get the right to life. If that is so, then it is no right at all, but merely a privilege, for if the government can grant the right to life, it can surely withhold it. Once you accept that the government has this power, you must accept, willy-nilly that the government can decree some people â perhaps Jews, or Blacks or Catholics â never get the right to life.
If, therefore there is such a thing as a right to life, it must accrue to every living human being. This sets up a simple, three-part test.
ďˇ Is the unborn child living? If it were not, we would not be having this debate!
ďˇ Is it human? Check the DNA. If it has rabbit or squirrel DNA, then it is not human. But if it has human DNA, it is human.
ďˇ But is it a being? Check the DNA again. If it has the motherâs DNA, then it is a part of her body. But if it has its own DNA, then it is a being â a separate and distinct human life.
Very clearly, the unborn has the same right to live as any other living human being. Who denies that, denies the whole concept of human rights.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
But you see no difference between the SPCA aborting kittens and Planned Parenthood aborting babies. If autism is too greay an area how about alzhimers patients, or any other infirmity that requires in many cases 100% care by others to keep them alive?some animals are self-aware, but I said âhuman self-awarenessâ. so we are worth much more than any animal out there.
Our difference I suppose is more I argue the right to life of the unborn and you argue the right to kill of the living. No matter what you think it is within the womb the right to uneccessarily kill anything is not a human right.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
in many cases the commatozed is still self aware in its sleep. they still have memories, experiences and personalities.If autism is too greay an area how about alzhimers patients, or any other infirmity that requires in many cases 100% care by others to keep them alive?
terri schiavoâs brain center for self-awareness had completely & irreversibly collapsed. nothing remained but the neural synapses that dictates her motor functions. she was no longer a person.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
You might go one step farther â how about those people in Third World countries who need outside help to survive â are they also subject to being killed because itâs âinconvenientâ to help them?But you see no difference between the SPCA aborting kittens and Planned Parenthood aborting babies. If autism is too greay an area how about alzhimers patients, or any other infirmity that requires in many cases 100% care by others to keep them alive?
Our difference I suppose is more I argue the right to life of the unborn and you argue the right to kill of the living. No matter what you think it is within the womb the right to uneccessarily kill anything is not a human right.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
If such an organism was found on Mars, it would be declared a âprotected speciesâ and people would be prosecuted if they so much as went there and exposed it to human microbes.If such an organism was found on Mars would you not call it life?
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Verisimilitude
Guest
I think you are correct in that. Funny.If such an organism was found on Mars, it would be declared a âprotected speciesâ and people would be prosecuted if they so much as went there and exposed it to human microbes.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
That is the crux of the issue with the devalued human life be it from abortion or those living considered of less worth. I heard on a radio the other day that if those suffering in Maynmar were white and Christian the world (US, UN, UKâŚ) would automatically force their way in to help, but because that are asian we arenât. It was not offered up what white Christian country would refuse help in the first place but the idea is out there.You might go one step farther â how about those people in Third World countries who need outside help to survive â are they also subject to being killed because itâs âinconvenientâ to help them?
In the spirit in which Ridgerunner noted the irony of protected species and human life does it also stand on its head regarding the living among some. People like AgnosTheist might argue (I donât know if he doesâŚand are you a he Agnos?) for helping the unfortunate struck by natural disaters (at the unconstitutional expense of others), but is seemingly undisturbed at thousands of new human lives a day being terminated.
There are many sad ironies that drive the point home. Police will forcefully stop drug addicts making a personal choice because it is harmfull to themselves, but use force to allow women to make a personal choice that kills another life. People will tie themselves to an old growth tree to prevent it being killed, but with âcompassionâ do they support a womans âright to chooseâ by protesting in the street.
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fix
Guest
I mean human as in a life.when you say âhumanâ, do you mean âhuman beingâ or âhuman partsâ?
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buffalo
Guest
What you are advocating is another crime. One crime was committed against the woman, so she in turn justifies another crime perpetrated on the child. One is a rape - bad enough - the next crime is murder - totally bad. See how this escalates?If you agreed to share it, you forfeit your right to take it back. You will have to live by the consequences of your decision
If a woman was raped and got pregnant, she has every right to abort the rapistâs unwanted child. There was no agreement.
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buffalo
Guest
see the Inner Life of the Cella lump of mindless cells.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
Life does not equate a mind. Memories. Self-awareness. Reasoning. Will. Those are the things that truly makes us human.
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buffalo
Guest
I am well aware of that - just watch the video - it is amazing to see the sophistication of this so called lump of cells.Life does not equate a mind. Memories. Self-awareness. Reasoning. Will. Those are the things that truly makes us human.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
There are enough stories told by people who remember being born, apparently including Salvador Dali, that one should not be dismissive of the possibility of human consciousness at any particular point in fetal development. Thatâs not to say that âconsciousnessâ is coextensive with âhuman lifeâ, but many think of it that way.I am well aware of that - just watch the video - it is amazing to see the sophistication of this so called lump of cells.
Say what one will about brain development and the likelihood of this or that level of âconsciousnessâ, nobody really knows where consciousness in some form begins with a human being. Certainly, a wide range of sensory (name removed by moderator)ut (after birth) will impress more than a very narrow range (being in the womb). There is no doubt a newborn has memory. But the newborn has no words and no experiential background with which to relate (name removed by moderator)uts for some time, which likely limits individualsâ recall of early events. But thatâs true at any age. I might well now know the significance of, e.g., an overexpansion in the money supply. But without either experience of such a period or reading about someone elseâs data concerning the same, I would not know the significance of it and certainly would not be able to verbalize any coherent thoughts about the phenomenon. I would not even be able to recognize it for what it is.
Even the 5-4 Supreme Court majority in Roe admitted that it did not know âwhen human life beginsâ or how to base such a conclusion, but rather thought it might be in the third trimester. Thatâs why it placed limits (meaningless as it turns out, of course) on abortions in the third trimester.
The whole âlump of tissueâ thing always puts me to mind of a person sitting in a high rise apartment with a high-powered rifle with an open sight. Nearby is a stadium in which is a moderate crowd of people. Not being able to aim with any real accuracy, the rifleman neverless fires into the stadium, not knowing who he will hit, where on the body he will hit, or whether he will hit anyone at all. No one would ever maintain that the riflemanâs actions are blameless, and society would not put up with such a practice.
Yet, at the very best, thatâs what the majority in Roe did, and thatâs what all of the âlump of tissueâ people do. They know there are people somewhere in the stadium (the continuum of human life from conception to natural death) and absolutely do not and cannot know whether they are going to kill a human being if they fire, but shoot anyway because they cannot persuade themselves that theyâre actually going to hit someone if they do.
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buffalo
Guest
I am one that has memories in the womb.There are enough stories told by people who remember being born, apparently including Salvador Dali, that one should not be dismissive of the possibility of human consciousness at any particular point in fetal development. Thatâs not to say that âconsciousnessâ is coextensive with âhuman lifeâ, but many think of it that way.
Say what one will about brain development and the likelihood of this or that level of âconsciousnessâ, nobody really knows where consciousness in some form begins with a human being. Certainly, a wide range of sensory (name removed by moderator)ut (after birth) will impress more than a very narrow range (being in the womb). There is no doubt a newborn has memory. But the newborn has no words and no experiential background with which to relate (name removed by moderator)uts for some time, which likely limits individualsâ recall of early events. But thatâs true at any age. I might well now know the significance of, e.g., an overexpansion in the money supply. But without either experience of such a period or reading about someone elseâs data concerning the same, I would not know the significance of it and certainly would not be able to verbalize any coherent thoughts about the phenomenon. I would not even be able to recognize it for what it is.
Even the 5-4 Supreme Court majority in Roe admitted that it did not know âwhen human life beginsâ or how to base such a conclusion, but rather thought it might be in the third trimester. Thatâs why it placed limits (meaningless as it turns out, of course) on abortions in the third trimester.
The whole âlump of tissueâ thing always puts me to mind of a person sitting in a high rise apartment with a high-powered rifle with an open sight. Nearby is a stadium in which is a moderate crowd of people. Not being able to aim with any real accuracy, the rifleman neverless fires into the stadium, not knowing who he will hit, where on the body he will hit, or whether he will hit anyone at all. No one would ever maintain that the riflemanâs actions are blameless, and society would not put up with such a practice.
Yet, at the very best, thatâs what the majority in Roe did, and thatâs what all of the âlump of tissueâ people do. They know there are people somewhere in the stadium (the continuum of human life from conception to natural death) and absolutely do not and cannot know whether they are going to kill a human being if they fire, but shoot anyway because they cannot persuade themselves that theyâre actually going to hit someone if they do.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
but we do know where it doesnt begin. it doesnt begin with fertilization.nobody really knows where consciousness in some form begins with a human being.
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