Responses to Pro-Choice Arguments

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Ridgerunner said:
There are enough stories told by people who remember being born, apparently including Salvador Dali, that one should not be dismissive of the possibility of human consciousness at any particular point in fetal development. That’s not to say that “consciousness” is coextensive with “human life”, but many think of it that way.

Say what one will about brain development and the likelihood of this or that level of “consciousness”, nobody really knows where consciousness in some form begins with a human being. Certainly, a wide range of sensory (name removed by moderator)ut (after birth) will impress more than a very narrow range (being in the womb). There is no doubt a newborn has memory. But the newborn has no words and no experiential background with which to relate (name removed by moderator)uts for some time, which likely limits individuals’ recall of early events. But that’s true at any age. I might well now know the significance of, e.g., an overexpansion in the money supply. But without either experience of such a period or reading about someone else’s data concerning the same, I would not know the significance of it and certainly would not be able to verbalize any coherent thoughts about the phenomenon. I would not even be able to recognize it for what it is.

Even the 5-4 Supreme Court majority in Roe admitted that it did not know “when human life begins” or how to base such a conclusion, but rather thought it might be in the third trimester. That’s why it placed limits (meaningless as it turns out, of course) on abortions in the third trimester.

The whole “lump of tissue” thing always puts me to mind of a person sitting in a high rise apartment with a high-powered rifle with an open sight. Nearby is a stadium in which is a moderate crowd of people. Not being able to aim with any real accuracy, the rifleman neverless fires into the stadium, not knowing who he will hit, where on the body he will hit, or whether he will hit anyone at all. No one would ever maintain that the rifleman’s actions are blameless, and society would not put up with such a practice.

Yet, at the very best, that’s what the majority in Roe did, and that’s what all of the “lump of tissue” people do. They know there are people somewhere in the stadium (the continuum of human life from conception to natural death) and absolutely do not and cannot know whether they are going to kill a human being if they fire, but shoot anyway because they cannot persuade themselves that they’re actually going to hit someone if they do.
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and the Supreme Court said that if in the future it is known when life begins they will have to reconsider.
 
buffalo said:
and the Supreme Court said that if in the future it is known when life begins they will have to reconsider.
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The answer is the opposite to when human life ends. One is as clear and diffinitive as the other. I do not know what the mystery is.
 
Verisimilitude said:
The answer is the opposite to when human life ends. One is as clear and diffinitive as the other. I do not know what the mystery is.
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Their is no mystery. Science has proclaimed it - it is now up to the SC to take action.
 
buffalo said:
Their is no mystery. Science has proclaimed it - it is now up to the SC to take action.
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Common sense, something we as a nation used to foster instinctively knew it before a federal court decided wrongly and inappropriately regarding life. Congress should/could take action with the Sanctity of Life Act 2005. The question of abortion should be removed from federal jurisdiction.
 
AgnosTheist said:
but we do know where it doesnt begin. it doesnt begin with fertilization.
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Actually, we don’t know that. Science doesn’t even know whether there is a difference between “mind” and “brain”, and might never know. That leaves aside the whole question when there is a soul, if one believes such a thing exists.

But consciousness does not determine “when life begins” anyway.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Actually, we don’t know that. Science doesn’t even know whether there is a difference between “mind” and “brain”, and might never know.
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Yes we do. And yes science does know the difference. Its as simple as software vs hardware.
 
AgnosTheist said:
Yes we do. And yes science does know the difference. Its as simple as software vs hardware.
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Or so SOME think. I take it you have a mechanistic notion of humanity. There is no “driver” in the machinery; only machinery. Correct?
 
AgnosTheist said:
For me, what makes a person/being is the software (mind) not the hardware (brain).
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Thought is the immaterial product of the mind. The mind is not made of matter. It is the spiritual (immaterial) part of us. The spirit is the life-giving principle of the body. Where there is human life, there is the human spirit. At the moment of conception, the single cell is not mature enough for the mind to express itself (i.e, communicate itself to the outside world in language). But it’s there. And because it’s there, life is there. It expresses itself by the fact that the cell is alive and dividing, growing, and developing.
 
Verisimilitude said:
Do you have a personal or vested interest in promoting women to have abortions?
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Not really. In fact i have never advised anybody to have an abortion. I support it for the sake of freedom and respect for women. The Catholic position is just too extreme. On the other end of extremism is the pro-choice who thinks its ok to abort babies up into the second before they are due. Is see myself somewhere in the middle, and closer to pro-life. Abortion allowable only on certain conditions, and before the 3rd month. Just like the Italian national policy.
 
AgnosTheist said:
Not really. In fact i have never advised anybody to have an abortion. I support it for the sake of freedom and respect for women. The Catholic position is just too extreme. On the other end of extremism is the pro-choice who thinks its ok to abort babies up into the second before they are due. Is see myself somewhere in the middle, and closer to pro-life. Abortion allowable only on certain conditions, and before the 3rd month. Just like the Italian national policy.
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With true freedom comes responsibility. This means we do what we ought to do.
 
AgnosTheist said:
For me, what makes a person/being is the software (mind) not the hardware (brain). A zygote is not a person. Not by a long long shot.
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Well, for me, conception is what makes a person/being. Who is right? By what authority is your view more valid than mine? Do we take a poll of scientists? Or do we dive into the realm of nihilism? 🤷
 
AgnosTheist said:
For me, what makes a person/being is the software (mind) not the hardware (brain).

some animals are self-aware, but I said “human self-awareness”. so we are worth much more than any animal out there.
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Oh make up your mind…
Either it is software or hardware…Right?

Either you concern yourself with “human self-awareness” and stand on both hardware and software…or you do not.
 
AgnosTheist said:
in many cases the commatozed is still self aware in its sleep. they still have memories, experiences and personalities.
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Without the testimony of a comatose patient to tell us of the experiences and memories, I submit that you are spinnig stories here.
You are stepping into areas that you cannot know.
 
AgnosTheist said:
Life does not equate a mind. Memories. Self-awareness. Reasoning. Will. Those are the things that truly makes us human.
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Without the ability to read minds, you cannot know if anyone around you is human then.
Memories, Self-awareness, Reasoning, Will…all exist in the mind, and cannot be examined directly.

So how is your psychic ability these days?
 
AgnosTheist said:
From the stages of embryonic development. It does take some time for the brain to develop into something that can record memories and process thought.
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And when exactly is this?

You specified 3 years of age. I hardly call that embryonic.
 
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