Restoration of Papal Tiara?

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whyeyeman said:
So he gave up the residence that was already in his possession, and spent extra money to live in another house. How humble.

“Look at me! I’m so humble!”
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True. It’s not as if the papal resident is now being rented out or otherwise providing benefit for the City-State by allowing others to reside there. The thing that I struggled with regarding all these “regular guy” matters is just how carefully and extensively they were promoted in the media.
 
I am English/British (of Irish and Greek decent). But love the fact we have a democracy which opperates exactly like a republic but we still get the pompy and ceremony of the Royal family. I think if Britain ever became a republic which there are calls for with a large portion of the younger generations we’d lose something of ourselves. Hey we are going to get an American in the British Royal family.
 
Adrian_Liam said:
I am English/British (of Irish and Greek decent). But love the fact we have a democracy which opperates exactly like a republic but we still get the pompy and ceremony of the Royal family. I think if Britain ever became a republic which there are calls for with a large portion of the younger generations we’d lose something of ourselves. Hey we are going to get an American in the British Royal family.
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While I think it’s quaint for the UK to maintain its monarchy, I am very thankful that the USofA does not have one. I hope things work out for Harry and NutMeg.
 
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Duesenberg said:
True
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Nope…

"I didn’t want to go and live in the apostolic palace. I go over there just to work and for audiences.

“I’ve remained living in the Casa Santa Marta, which is a residence which accommodates bishops, priests and lay people.” There he feels “part of a family” he wrote in the letter, which was obtained by Clarin, an Argentinian daily.

"I’m visible to people and I lead a normal life – a public Mass in the morning, I eat in the refectory with everyone else, et cetera. All this is good for me and prevents me from being isolated.

“I’m trying to stay the same and to act as I did in Buenos Aires because if you change at my age you just look ridiculous.”

www.aciprensa.com

El Papa Francisco explica por qué vive en Santa Marta

En una reciente carta enviada a un sacerdote argentino, el Papa Francisco explica por qué vive en la Casa Santa Marta, el lugar en donde decidió fijar su residencia luego de estar allí los días del Cónclave en marzo de este año en el que fue elegido Pontífice.
www.aciprensa.com www.aciprensa.com

www.telegraph.co.uk

Pope Francis shunned official papal apartments to live 'normal life'

Pope Francis has revealed for the first time the reasons for his decision to shun the official papal apartments and instead live in a much more modest Vatican 'hotel'.
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
 
Duesenberg said:
I hope things work out for Harry and NutMeg.
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Calling another of Gods creatures ‘nutmeg’ is incredibly disrespectful. There is absolutely no Catholic Charity in this , and it contravenes the forum rules.

Charity, the reader should know, is another gift of the Holy Spirit.
And one virtue a Catholic Apostolate should be rigidly enforcing.

Pope Francis is and will always be. Jesuit. A religious. Pope Francis operates according to his religious vows. We would not expect Pope Francis to embrace ornate expensive clothing or to have the best residences. Pope Francis lives in a community, still. As graciew posted in her link.
Pope Francis lived and worked in a very politically charged environment in Argentina, and took Pastoral Care to the people, much to the chagrin of his peers. The field hospital started a long time ago in a dangerous backdrop.
 
I never really thought about how lonely it must be to be Pope. Get the finest meals but do it alone or with staff.

Sounds like he is fostering a real sense of community. I know Pope Benedict would invite religious sisters over to watch movies because of their infectious laughter.
 
twf said:
Not so much daily clothing. I would fully expect Francis, as a religious, to dress humbly and simply in his daily life. In the context of the liturgy? I would prefer him to use finer, beautiful vestments. There is a time and a place for him to be “Christ the servant” who humbled and emptied himself… but in the liturgical context he ceases to be Francis… he is, among other things, Christ the King. The glory of a bishop fully vested at Mass reflects the glory of Christ in heaven.
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🤨

Personally, I think that some of the trappings tha we associate with “glory” are gaudy. And I don’t see the tackiness at all of just wearing the simplist thing available. I have my doubts about spectacular clothing and think many times it’s just ridiculous.
 
Duesenberg said:
The pope doesn’t wear a cassock. His white, day to day garb is a simar (much like a cassock) and a pellegrina (shoulder cape.)
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This is sorta off the Papal Tiara topic but just something that I had long ago… Pax 😃

“In his 1909 book, Costume of Prelates of the Catholic Church, John Abel Felix Prosper Nainfa proposed the use of the English word “simar”, instead of the word “cassock”, for the cassock with the pellegrina (a shoulder cape which is sometimes detachable) worn by Catholic clergy, which he treated as distinct from the cassock proper. Others too have made the same distinction between the “simar” (with pellegrina) and the “cassock” (without), but many scholars disagree with Nainfa’s distinction. More particularly, the documents of the Holy See do not make this distinction, and use the term “cassock” or “vestis talaris” whether a pellegrina is attached or is not. Thus the Instruction on the Dress, Titles and Coats-of-Arms of Cardinals, Bishops and Lesser Prelates of 28 March 1969 states that, for cardinals and bishops, “the elbow-length cape, trimmed in the same manner as this cassock, may be worn over it”. “Cassock”, rather than “simar” is the term that is usually applied to the dress of Popes and other Catholic ecclesiastics. The Instruction also gives no support to Nainfa’s claim that the cassock with shoulder cape should not be worn in church services. Nainfa wrote that the garment with the shoulder cape was at that time called a zimarra in Italian. However, the Italian term zimarra is today used rather of a historical loose-fitting overgown, quite unlike the close-fitting cassock with shoulder cape worn today by some Catholic clergy, and similar to the fur-lined Schaube that was used in northern Europe.”
 
Duesenberg said:
but it could be that Francis is buying off the rack. There is also the issue that Francis’ garb doesn’t always fit very well.
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that’s true… the fit and quality does look cheap… even for a common priest… let alone the Pope…
 
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Normally, if you give people an example to follow, it helps if people notice the example.

The different popes talk about the things that are important to them, and things that have shaped them.

One of John Paul II’s big marks left behind was the resistance to communism. Pius XII fought the Nazis from the shadows, because he was subtle and educated in European politics. He knew he could make more of an impact from behind the scenes, and put fewer people in direct danger, than by a frontal assault. Karol Wotjyla, however, was an athlete and an actor and a manual laborer. He didn’t have that training that Pacelli had, from experience as Cardinal Secretary of State and working with treaties and working as a diplomat/papal nuncio to Germany and everything else. So Pius XII went about things his way— and people still debate him and his intentions to this day. John Paul II went about things his way— and while people might grumble about “oh, he really didn’t do that much”, he was much less nuanced.

Benedict was a scholar who wasn’t afraid to not package things in soft words, or tap-dance around his point. Everyone remembers the “dictatorship of relativism” homily in the Mass before the Conclave. The media was all “Oooo, he just wiped out any chance of being elected the next Pope, if he’s going to talk like that.” Two days and four ballots later— poof. He still ruffled feathers at times— like the Regensburg lecture, where he used to be a professor-- and when quoted a passage by Manuel II Palaiologos, who was the third-to-last Byzantine emperor, and whose dynasty had been battling the Ottomans for, what, 70 years? And would eventually topple to them after about 90 years of war? Before the Pope quoted it, I doubt one person in a hundred thousand could tell you anything significant about “26 Dialogues with a Persian”. (Hint: It had never been translated into English; it had only been translated into German as of 1966. Haven’t checked when the French came out.) (Another fun fact: here’s an internet translation, that got half-translated, before the translator got bored and found something else to work on, because no one seemed to care about it. Because people really weren’t interested in “let’s read these thoughts by someone whose empire was being battered by the Ottoman Turks; let’s jump on the Pope for saying things we don’t want to hear.”)
 
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So now we have Francis. He comes from a totally different culture, a totally different socioeconomic background, a totally different religious background, than any of his predecessors. He focuses on things like mercy/humility/the poor. If he was wearing the Spanish Tiara and preaching about love-of-the-poor from under vestments weighed down with three pounds of embroidery, people would say, “What a hypocrite!” If he’s not well-tailored and looking like he stepped off the pages of a coffee table book, people complain about that he’s not living up to the image of the office…
 
Using the “simplest” item available has not been the mind of the Church for most of her history. The sacrifice of the Mass is the heavenly Liturgy made present… it’s not about the priest, it’s about Christ. I always found it arrogant to go out of your way to look “humble” at Mass… it’s a way of calling attention to oneself. When wearing the proper vestments, Father / Bishop is absorbed into the Rite. He diminishes so Christ can increase.
 
graciew said:
Nope…

"I didn’t want to go and live in the apostolic palace. I go over there just to work and for audiences.

“I’ve remained living in the Casa Santa Marta, which is a residence which accommodates bishops, priests and lay people.” There he feels “part of a family” he wrote in the letter, which was obtained by Clarin, an Argentinian daily.

"I’m visible to people and I lead a normal life – a public Mass in the morning, I eat in the refectory with everyone else, et cetera. All this is good for me and prevents me from being isolated.

“I’m trying to stay the same and to act as I did in Buenos Aires because if you change at my age you just look ridiculous.”
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Pope Francis could have done all of this without announcing it to the world. This was all PR, pure and simple.
 
midori said:
If he’s not well-tailored and looking like he stepped off the pages of a coffee table book, people complain about that he’s not living up to the image of the office…
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That’s not really true. Again, why wear something like wear black pants under his simar? It looks tacky and the white pants are no more expensive. When it does down to it, the Pope’s everyday garb is quite simple. It need not be over the top, but it should be clearly of high quality and well-tailored.

As far as vestment go, they belong to the Church, not to the Pope. The celebration of the Mass deserves the best – even if it will impinge on an individual pope’s PR (which I don’t think it will in any event.)
 
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Somewhat on topic, but here’s an interesting description of St. Pius X at the time–another Pope who did his own thing when it came to certain customs, from a 1910 issue of Collier’s about the Pope hosting athletic exhibitions in the Vatican (complete with acrobats):
Pius X, the kind, unaffected, peasant Pope, has removed many prejudices from the Vatican. One day, soon after his election, he invited his secretary to dinner and made him take a seat at his own table. “Your Holiness,” remonstrated an old master of ceremonies, struck with amazement at the innovation, “it is the custom for the Pope to dine by himself, in solitary grandeur!” “Well,” calmly asked the Pope, “and who established this custom?” “Urban VII, your Holiness, in the year 1590,” promptly answered the master of ceremonies. “Pius X abolished it to-day,” said the Pope, and his secretary, his three sisters and niece, and his old humble friends from Riesi and Venice have since dined at his table The members of the papal court, from the major-domo to the last bussolante or doorkeeper, object to these reforms and shake their heads in disapproval, but the Pope evidently overlooks silent opposition as he keeps on removing prejudices and traditions.
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books.google.com

Collier's

books.google.com
 
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FWIW, Meghan Markle’s nickname is “NutMeg.” She cheerfully announced it on Craig Ferguson’s show some time ago:
at 6:41

I made no attack on Ms. Markle.
 
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Genesis315 said:
” said the Pope, and his secretary, his three sisters and niece, and his old humble friends from Riesi and Venice have since dined at his table The members of the papal court, from the major-domo to the last bussolante or doorkeeper, object to these reforms and shake their heads in disapproval, but the Pope evidently overlooks silent opposition as he keeps on removing prejudices and traditions.
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Yep. But to some, that’s ok because he was Pius X–what a well kept wonderful man. So historic. Much wow. Pope Francis abolishes traditions and people loose their ever loving minds.
 
Ah. I had seen the thread concerning prince Harry’s fiancé awhile ago… Sorry.
 
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