Restore the Triple Tiara?

[JKirkLVNV]

AJV:

Dunno about that. It is definitely not liturgical in the latin rite but look at this photo

Bl. John XXIII seems to be celebrating a Byzantine Liturgy wearing a tiara. Also note the interesting mixture of vestments.

I couldn’t get anywhere with that link, AJV. Can you send it again or cut and past the photo?

 

[AJV]

JKirkLVNV:

I couldn’t get anywhere with that link, AJV. Can you send it again or cut and past the photo?

aaaargh , the link for some reason is not working. You have to manually type it in or hit ‘Enter’ umpteen times. And I tried with post 95 but the picture is too large-sometimes it comes and sometimes it doesn’t. Anyway, go here and scroll down until you reach the ones of Bl. John XXIII- it’s the one with him holding the double and triple candlesticks.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

AJV:

aaaargh , the link for some reason is not working. You have to manually type it in or hit ‘Enter’ umpteen times. And I tried with post 95 but the picture is too large-sometimes it comes and sometimes it doesn’t. Anyway, go here and scroll down until you reach the ones of Bl. John XXIII- it’s the one with him holding the double and triple candlesticks.

Yup, that’s a liturgical occasion (an eastern rite priest gave a blessing using the crossed candles in our parish) and it IS an interesting mix of vestments. The link we posted was to New Advent/Catholic Encyclopedia. They’re pretty conservative and usually reliable. They still say the triregnum wasn’t intended for liturgical use. We still hope they don’t bring it back.

Don’t you enjoy that blog spot, though? Informative.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

warrior71:

Something does not need to have a useful purpose in order to be meaningful.

Indeed, utility WOULD be a shakey argument. We don’t NEED a great deal of things, but that doesn’t detract from their infinite worth.
I’m saying it’s a poor, inadequate, and perhaps even scandalous expression of the office of the papacy and Paul VI with good reason laid it on the altar and the last 3 popes with good reason have declined to be crowned.

 

[SummaTheo]

ComradeAndrei:

I think this is rediculous. Should we make the Pope, the bishops, priests etc. all just wear sackcloth so they can get back to how the “early Church did it”?

All the splendor and art gives glory to God. Remember when the woman annointed Christ with expensive perfume? Did he agree with the Apostles that it should have been sold and the money given to the poor? Nope.

The papal tiara doesn’t honor the man, it honors the office. So do the other vestments. All the money and effort we put (or should put) into beautiful Churches and nice vestments are for God’s glory. We also should be getting back into the practice of kissing the bishop’s ring, and rising when a priest enters the room. Not just to honor the person, but give due honor to the office.

GREAT POST!!

 

[1962Missal]

We had an exhibition from the Vatican in Houston a couple of years ago. I got to see several of the Triregnums (Triregni?) along with the Sedia gestatoria and the ostrich fans. Now, take this from someone who prefers the TLM: They were all unbelievably gaudy, like something from a Cecil B. DeMille Cleopatra film. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

I’m glad that the Papacy has adopted a somewhat more chaste aesthetic.

Justin

 

[JKirkLVNV]

ComradeAndrei:

I think this is rediculous. Should we make the Pope, the bishops, priests etc. all just wear sackcloth so they can get back to how the “early Church did it”? **This betrays a very poor and ill-informed understanding of the liturgical history of the Church. When in the early Church did our priests and bishops, in their liturgical offices, ever wear sackcloth? Some of them wore hair shirts *under ***their regular clothes and vestments, but they didn’t wear sackcloth AS vestments. Penitents wore sackcloth, stood at the doors of the churches, etc., but not the clergy as officiating priests.

All the splendor and art gives glory to God. Remember when the woman annointed Christ with expensive perfume? Did he agree with the Apostles that it should have been sold and the money given to the poor? Nope. I don’t think that many people here arguing against the use of the triregnum by the Holy Father are stating that we should beggar our sanctuaries in order to help the poor. The glory of God deserves our reasonable best (though taste sometimes comes into play: I personally do not care for the chapel that Mother Angelica built for her community, may God continue to restore her to health) and those things with which we beautify our churches serve to elevate our minds to Him. I don’t think anyone is advocating that the Holy Father or any other bishop or priest come to the Altar in a black Brooks Bros. suit. The triregnum represents something ELSE and we don’t need it anymore. AND the last three popes seem to have agreed. Their Master’s Kingdom is not of this world and they and we can wait until HE hands the crowns out.

The papal tiara doesn’t honor the man, it honors the office. So do the other vestments. All the money and effort we put (or should put) into beautiful Churches and nice vestments are for God’s glory. We also should be getting back into the practice of kissing the bishop’s ring, and rising when a priest enters the room. Not just to honor the person, but give due honor to the office.

The tiara honors and represents an aspect of the papal office that has gone by the wayside and which was never a part of the institution of the papacy until the popes HAD to assume secular power (again, the "Dark Ages would have been even darker if they hadn’t). The pope is NOT a king, he’s a vice-regent. They don’t wear crowns. And lots of us have never NOT kissed our bishop’s ring nor failed to rise when a priest enters a room (I kiss my confessor’s hand sometimes). You shouldn’t confuse opposition to papal use of the triple crown with minimalism.

 

[warrior71]

JKirkLVNV:

Indeed, utility WOULD be a shakey argument. We don’t NEED a great deal of things, but that doesn’t detract from their infinite worth.
I’m saying it’s a poor, inadequate, and perhaps even scandalous expression of the office of the papacy and Paul VI with good reason laid it on the altar and the last 3 popes with good reason have declined to be crowned.

I think it probably had more to do with the whole idea of collegiality and equality amongst the Bishops and the Pope trying to show that he was just one of the boys so to speak.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I couldn’t speak to what was on the mind of HH Pope Paul VI, of happy memory, when he laid that tiara on the altar. I simply think it was well-done of him to do so. Plus, his tiara made him look like he had a bullet perched on top of his head, may he rest in everlasting peace.

 

[warrior71]

JKirkLVNV:

I couldn’t speak to what was on the mind of HH Pope Paul VI, of happy memory, when he laid that tiara on the altar. I simply think it was well-done of him to do so. Plus, his tiara made him look like he had a bullet perched on top of his head, may he rest in everlasting peace.

It is a pretty silly looking hat

 

[ComradeAndrei]

This betrays a very poor and ill-informed understanding of the liturgical history of the Church. When in the early Church did our priests and bishops, in their liturgical offices, ever wear sackcloth? Some of them wore hair shirts under their regular clothes and vestments, but they didn’t wear sackcloth AS vestments. Penitents wore sackcloth, stood at the doors of the churches, etc., but not the clergy as officiating priests.

Since I didn’t make proper use of smiles before, now I will .

I know very well that sackcloth wasn’t used as a vestment. My point is that this whole idea of “humility” falsely so-called that some folks want to foist upon the Clergy and Hierarchy really misses the boat. Beautiful vestments and accoutrements honor God. Sure they can be used for the furthering of one’s ego or pride, but anything can be misused.

The triregnum represents something ELSE and we don’t need it anymore. AND the last three popes seem to have agreed. Their Master’s Kingdom is not of this world and they and we can wait until HE hands the crowns out.

So they decide not to use it, that is their perogative. However, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t and I think that they should. Why throw away hundreds of years of tradition (the papal tiara, among other things) in some lame attempt to not scandalize the secular or pagan world? Seems to smack of the instance when Paul withstood Peter for kowtowing to the interests of the Judaizers. Sure, it is not a matter of faith or morals, but why give up these things?

I am also sure that many of us still give proper respect to our Clergy and Hierarchy, but it should be universal.

Furthermore, it is not if my faith depends on the Pope wearing the triple crown or not. However, I think he should. If he disagrees, it is his call and I respect it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

ComradeAndrei:

My point is that this whole idea of “humility” falsely so-called that some folks want to foist upon the Clergy and Hierarchy really misses the boat. Beautiful vestments and accoutrements honor God.

And no one here has argued that we should do away with anything except the triregnum. We haven’t said they should pitch a single cope, or chasuble, or mitre, or any of the communion vessels or anything else.

 

[BillyT92679]

JKirkLVNV:

And no one here has argued that we should do away with anything except the triregnum. We haven’t said they should pitch a single cope, or chasuble, or mitre, or any of the communion vessels or anything else.

I agree, and I LOVE beautiful fiddleback chasubles much more than the polyester blankets that too many priests wear nowadays.

I think what you and I are saying is though is the Church is pushing for “noble simplicity” Sacrosanctum Concilium called for it as opposed to “ostentatious splendor.” This has been taken way too far and we have ugly churches and vestments and everything nowadays. But a reaction back to doing something Pre Vatican II is not the right approach either, that’s not reform of the reform, that’s reaction away from organic development. The Triregnum especially, as a non-liturgical headdress, is perceived as ostentacious splendor rather than noble simplicity. Do I agree? I like the Tiara, but I submit to the Church on this.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

And no one here has argued that we should do away with anything except the triregnum. We haven’t said they should pitch a single cope, or chasuble, or mitre, or any of the communion vessels or anything else.

We agree on vestments, my statement was more of a general rant-not directed at you.

However, we do disagree about the papal tiara but no big deal. I argue that it still has a place, and stand by that comment.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

The Hammer:

ALL the Eastern Patriarchs wear a CROWN which looks very much like a Tiara; there are minor differences between the different rites. The Pope, PATRIARCH of the WEST, MUST restore the most ancient and traditional symbol of his Patriarchy. Thus he will not look INFERRIOR to the eastern Patriarchs and Bishops when he is standing in their midst.

:ehh: standing in the presence of Vladyka Basil Losten, Emeritus Eparch of Stamford of the Ukrainians, he’s gonna need lifts in those slippers to not look inferior since Vladyka Basil stands a good head above every bishop I’ve ever met - and that’s without his crown.

Many years,

Neil, who at 6’2.5" looks up to Vladyka Basil, at an acute angle

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Brain:

we should also bring back the cool curved mitres. The little pop-out pentagons just dont cut it sometimes. For every day use the pentagonal ones work, but on more solemn occasions the jumbomitre would be cool.

You want jumbo mitres, borrow one from your local Armenian Catholic or Orthodox bishop

His Holiness Hovhannes Bedros XVIII, Catholicos-Patriarch of Cilicia of the Armenians

His Holiness Karekin II Nersissian, Supreme Catholicos of the Holy See of Saint Etchmiadzin & All Armenia

Now, those are mitres

Many years,

Neil

 

[AJV]

From Catholic World News

The simplified ceremonies of today’s Vatican are more conducive to Christian humility than the pomp and splendor of past papal courts, Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) told a group of papal aides at a January 13 audience.

The Pope held a private audience with the sediari pontifici, the laymen who traditionally carried the throne, or sedia gestatoria of the Roman Pontiff. Since the time of Pope John Paul I the sedia gestatoria has fallen from us, and today the 23 sediari pontifici have been assigned to new duties within the pontifical household.

“Yours is an ancient task which over the course of the centuries has evolved in different ways depending upon the customs and needs of the times,” the Pope told them. He recalled that after Vatican II, papal ceremonies were simplified, “bringing them back to a greater sobriety more in keeping with the Christian message and the needs of the times.”

The sediari pontifici trace their lineage of service to the Roman Pontiff back to the 6th century, and membership in the group has been passed down, from fathers to sons, for centuries. Pope Benedict thanked the members of the group for their “diligence, courtesy, and discretion” in their assigned duties.

Today the papal aides are responsible primarily for hospitality service in the apostolic palace, and the sediari pontifici carry the Pope only to his funeral, as pallbearers. During the last months of the life of Pope John Paul II (bio - news), members of the group also pushed the Pontiff on the rolling platform that he used during public audiences.

During the past week Pope Benedict has held private audiences with three different groups of employees working in the pontifical household; sedia gestatoria were the last such group to meet with the Holy Father.