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StAnastasia
Guest
Your paranoia is reminiscent of Jim Jones, The Branch Davidians, the Aryan Nation, and other cults that view our contemporary Church and society with fear and suspicion.
Relax – the world’s great religions have many holy women and men in them, just as does Christianity. I recommend you attend a service in another faith tradition, and see how God is served and worshipped by people who look and dress and speak differently than you.
StAnastasia
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Onegin
Guest
Ahh, “faith traditions.”
Just remember, it is established Catholic doctrine that* salvation can only be achieved through the Catholic Church and those who have knowingly separated themselves from her will be lost. *(see how I carved out an invincible ignorance exception there?)
So, with this in mind, I leave it to all of you to discern the spiritual benefit of muddling about in other religions. Much, much more good would be effected (I mean this in all sincerity) if we would forget about attending services in other “faith traditions” and instead say a rosary for the intention of those poor souls who have left the Faith that the Holy Ghost will lead them back to the Church.
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GIR
Guest
Well, vatican ii did nothing to promote scandal, a lot of the confusion surrounding it probably did. Anyone who’s familiar with the scandal knows what I’m talking about. Lax seminaries etc.
That being said, God always brings good out of evil. All those bishops resigning in Europe will hopefully be replaced by more faithful men who will be comfortable disciplining their priests when things get out of line.
That being said, God always brings good out of evil. All those bishops resigning in Europe will hopefully be replaced by more faithful men who will be comfortable disciplining their priests when things get out of line.
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tpw
Guest
The cardinal virtues good friend emerged as a consequence of the Jewish dialogue with Greek culture. See the book of Ecclesiastes… As Christianity emerged as a distinct religion from Judaism what we now call “the theological virtues” were melded with the cardinal virtures.
In the bigger world of interfaith dialogue we may evidence of “traditions” if you will of fortitude, temperance, justice and prudence may also emerge. We’re seeing more agreement on moral frameworks than had been realized before. Not all are equal of course.
And so what? Can’t other religious traditions have something to offer? That we could not learn from someone like Mohandas Ghandi seems a little absurd…
Just because one speaks of “religious traditions” doesn’t imply all religions are the same. It’s simply a way to study religion especially those with long histories. Clearly Wicca, Mormonism, Scientology, etc. don’t really fall into the same category. But insofar as someone may want to study such phenomenon
St. A quotes Nostra Aetate to support the study and dialogue with world religions. If you don’t accept Nostra Aetate then how can you really accuse me of having “separated myself from the Catholic tradition”?
In the bigger world of interfaith dialogue we may evidence of “traditions” if you will of fortitude, temperance, justice and prudence may also emerge. We’re seeing more agreement on moral frameworks than had been realized before. Not all are equal of course.
And so what? Can’t other religious traditions have something to offer? That we could not learn from someone like Mohandas Ghandi seems a little absurd…
Just because one speaks of “religious traditions” doesn’t imply all religions are the same. It’s simply a way to study religion especially those with long histories. Clearly Wicca, Mormonism, Scientology, etc. don’t really fall into the same category. But insofar as someone may want to study such phenomenon
St. A quotes Nostra Aetate to support the study and dialogue with world religions. If you don’t accept Nostra Aetate then how can you really accuse me of having “separated myself from the Catholic tradition”?
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SpiritusSanctus
Guest
You may want to do some research on Church doctrine. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Not everyone in this world goes to Heaven, and in fact not every Catholic goes to Heaven either. God decides who lives and who dies. If you don’t worship Him, then you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. That being said, I am flabergasted that you would recommend I attend a non-Catholic service. If I were to do that then I would not be a true Catholic. I would be sinning, in fact I would think it would be a mortal sin for me to attend a non-Catholic service since I know better. You can say other religions help strengthen your faith and that they are ok, but you must realize that not all religions worship the same God you and I do. We worship God the Father Almighty, while anyone who does not worship Him is worshiping the Devil whether they realize it or not. Afterall, scripture itself tells us all gods of the pagans are devils, so how could anyone that practices buddhism, paganism, etc. not be worshiping Satan? There are even people that worship the Devil and know it yet do it without care. God gives everyone a free will. I want to use my free will to worship God by going to the Church He started.
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SpiritusSanctus
Guest
I don’t know if that’s what he is saying or not, but he does have a point. Look at Paul VI, who served in the Church before Vatican II. Not everyone that was a part of Vatican II was a servant of the Church though. Vatican II was hijacked.
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TMC
Guest
No. Although I think it is true that the nearly all the bishops and most of the priests we know to have been involved in the abuse crisis were formed before Vatican II, I did not mean to suggest that Vatican II had any causal link to the crisis one way or the other. The poster suggested that Vatican-II resulted in “lax seminaries” that in turn lead to (or promoted) the abuse. I am suggesting that its hard to make any connection between V-II and the sexual abuse crisis as the sexual abuse crisis most certainly pre-dates V-II and there is no evidence that later trained priests were more prone to abuse than ealier trained priests.
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Layman
Guest
Vatican II is an artificial cut-off point anyway. Bugnini created a new missal in 1955, I understand. Priests were modifying the rite before the 1965 Missal, I think.
Some things which may have contributed to the crisis: the laxity that occurred after the 60’s.
Previously, I understand, perverts would have been given the boot. Also, Bishops listened to psychiatrists who said they could be ‘cured’. Some of the younger perverts might have been let in when homosexuals were ordained on the understanding they would be chaste(?), but I can’t recall when, maybe around 1961, according to Wikipedia
Some things which may have contributed to the crisis: the laxity that occurred after the 60’s.
Previously, I understand, perverts would have been given the boot. Also, Bishops listened to psychiatrists who said they could be ‘cured’. Some of the younger perverts might have been let in when homosexuals were ordained on the understanding they would be chaste(?), but I can’t recall when, maybe around 1961, according to Wikipedia
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TMC
Guest
You might want to do a little research of your own. Only two of these four statements (of yours) are consistent with Church doctrine:
- There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
- Not everyone in this world goes to Heaven, and in fact not every Catholic goes to Heaven either.
- God decides who lives and who dies.
- If you don’t worship Him, then you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
The following statement is puzzling to me because it seems so clearly self-contradicting:
How can someone worship anything without realizing it? If a Wiccan stumbles into a Mass by accident and goes through the motions and responses of Mass, is that person worshipping God without realizing it? If not, how can someone that truly believes they are worshipping God be “really” worshipping Satan? By accident? Are Baptists and Lutherans accidental Satanists? Jews? Muslims? Mormons? They all really think they worship the same God we do, I can promise you that. Or is it only Hindis, Buddists, Sikhs, etc. that are accidental Satan worshipers? Some of them also think we have the same God, but most probably would say they don’t. But they would not agree that they worship any kind of evil entity, and the moral precepts of their religions don’t seem consistent with what I think of as Satanistic. This truly makes no sense to me - can you explain what you mean?
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StAnastasia
Guest
That’s hogwash, or more accurately, it’s b*******.
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StAnastasia
Guest
No, it wasn’t.
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Julianna
Guest
My mother is Baptist, my father (now deceased) was Catholic. My siblings and I were raised in the Catholic Church and went through all the sacraments. We also as children attended my mother’s Baptist Church. When we visited my grandmother in the south, we went to Mass with the family down the street from her…but I also attended my grandmother’s Baptist Church.
It was “my Baptist mother” that saw to it that my siblings and I went to catechism and made our sacraments. If she had questions…Fr. O’Connor was always there to answer them. He never put her down, or told her she had to convert. She came to Mass with us about once a month.
I guess my mother is a heretic and living a lie.
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StAnastasia
Guest
She sounds like a saint to me!I guess my mother is a heretic and living a lie.
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dmorgan
Guest
From the Baltimore Catechism:
Our Lord instituted the Church to carry on the work He Himself was doing upon the earth – teaching the ignorant, visiting the sick, helping the poor, forgiving sins, etc. He commanded all men to hear the Church teaching, just as they would hear Himself. But suppose some persons should establish a false Church and claim that it was the true Church of Our Lord, how could people know the true Church from false churches? When a man invents anything to be sold, what does he do that people may know the true article – say a pen? Why, he puts his trademark upon it. Now the trademark is a certain sign which shows that the article bearing it is the genuine article; and if others use the trademark on imitation articles, they are liable to be punished by law. Now Our Lord did the same. He gave His Church four marks or characteristics to distinguish it from all false churches. He said, “My Church will be one; it will be holy; it will be catholic; it will be apostolic; and if any church has not these four marks, you may be sure it is not My Church.” Some false church may seem to have one or two, but never all the marks; so when you find even one of the marks wanting, you will know it is not the true Church established by Christ. Therefore, all the religions that claim to be the true religion cannot be so. If one man says a thing is white and another says it is black, or if one says a thing is true and another says it is false, they cannot both be right. Only one can be right, and if we wish to know the truth we have to find out which one it is. So when one religion says a thing is true and another religion says the same thing is false, one of them must be wrong, and it is our duty to find out the one that is right. Therefore, of all the religions claiming to be the true religion of Our Lord, only one can be telling the truth, and that one is the religion or Church that can show the four given marks. The Roman Catholic Church is the only one that can show these marks, and is, therefore, the only true Church, as we shall see in the next lesson.
You can read what all of the major Catechisms have to say on this at this link:
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/master2.htm#Extreme%20Unction%20or%20Holy%20Anointing
Our Lord instituted the Church to carry on the work He Himself was doing upon the earth – teaching the ignorant, visiting the sick, helping the poor, forgiving sins, etc. He commanded all men to hear the Church teaching, just as they would hear Himself. But suppose some persons should establish a false Church and claim that it was the true Church of Our Lord, how could people know the true Church from false churches? When a man invents anything to be sold, what does he do that people may know the true article – say a pen? Why, he puts his trademark upon it. Now the trademark is a certain sign which shows that the article bearing it is the genuine article; and if others use the trademark on imitation articles, they are liable to be punished by law. Now Our Lord did the same. He gave His Church four marks or characteristics to distinguish it from all false churches. He said, “My Church will be one; it will be holy; it will be catholic; it will be apostolic; and if any church has not these four marks, you may be sure it is not My Church.” Some false church may seem to have one or two, but never all the marks; so when you find even one of the marks wanting, you will know it is not the true Church established by Christ. Therefore, all the religions that claim to be the true religion cannot be so. If one man says a thing is white and another says it is black, or if one says a thing is true and another says it is false, they cannot both be right. Only one can be right, and if we wish to know the truth we have to find out which one it is. So when one religion says a thing is true and another religion says the same thing is false, one of them must be wrong, and it is our duty to find out the one that is right. Therefore, of all the religions claiming to be the true religion of Our Lord, only one can be telling the truth, and that one is the religion or Church that can show the four given marks. The Roman Catholic Church is the only one that can show these marks, and is, therefore, the only true Church, as we shall see in the next lesson.
You can read what all of the major Catechisms have to say on this at this link:
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/master2.htm#Extreme%20Unction%20or%20Holy%20Anointing
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grannymh
Guest
My best friend’s Mother was Lutheran and did about the same things your Mother did. She was never considered a heretic. She was living the truth as she understood it.My mother is Baptist, my father (now deceased) was Catholic. My siblings and I were raised in the Catholic Church and went through all the sacraments. We also as children attended my mother’s Baptist Church. When we visited my grandmother in the south, we went to Mass with the family down the street from her…but I also attended my grandmother’s Baptist Church.
It was “my Baptist mother” that saw to it that my siblings and I went to catechism and made our sacraments. If she had questions…Fr. O’Connor was always there to answer them. He never put her down, or told her she had to convert. She came to Mass with us about once a month.
I guess my mother is a heretic and living a lie.
When it seemed like she was close to death, we prayed in earnest to Our Lady telling her what a wonder mother Alma was. She was somewhere in her 80’s when she converted. She lived in beautiful peace until her death at 101.
Sometimes, I think my friend’s Mother had coverted in her heart but for some reason was waiting to do it officially. Who are we to judge hearts?
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