Restoring Tradition

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What diocese are you in?
Come on, Granny – as if I would trust someone who has the stake already erected, the chains fastened, and the wood piled around it!

But I’ll give you some hints: my diocese lies west of Canajoharie, north of Cartagena and east of Makaha. It lies in a more southerly latitude than the Skjoldungen Valley.

StAnastasia
 
Vatican II is an artificial cut-off point anyway. **Bugnini created a new missal in 1955, I understand. Priests were modifying the rite before the 1965 Missal, I think. **
Some things which may have contributed to the crisis: the laxity that occurred after the 60’s.

I’ve got a little problem with the statement I emboldened. Do you have proof the Bugnini did as you say. I’m not saying that he didn’t, but…since I’ve heard nothing about that…I’d just like some verification. Also, as one who attended the TLM for 24 yrs., I can say that, in my diocese, no one was “modifiying” the Mass, prior to 1969. We DID have the dialog Latin Mass daily at the Catholic girls high school I attended & I truly loved that.
Previously, I understand, perverts would have been given the boot.
 
Matthew 16: 18 “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

I trust that Jesus will preserve His Church as he promised. Does that mean that Judas will not show his ugly head from time to time? Absolutely not. As Tim Staples said, you dont leave the Church because of Judas.
 
You have got to be kidding me :rolleyes: You really believe this blatant lie don’t you? Again, I ask you…my mother is doomed to hell as is my deceased Baptist grandmother who was very active in her church? Please don’t say yes…because you are totally WRONG on this point boy-o. This is not about Tradition at all. Even the most die hard Traditionalists would have a bone to pick with you on this. Unbelieveable the **** that is being stated as Church fact. Here is a great example.
Julianna, I wouldn’t bother about SpiritusSanctus. This person is ignorant, bigoted, and mean-spirited. I would happily spend eternity in hell rather than five minutes in the presence of the “God” he/she worships, who gratuitously sends people to hell. I know what he/she has said is hurtful, but please don’t take it to heart.

StAnastasia
 
Come on, Granny – as if I would trust someone who has the stake already erected, the chains fastened, and the wood piled around it!

But I’ll give you some hints: my diocese lies west of Canajoharie, north of Cartagena and east of Makaha. It lies in a more southerly latitude than the Skjoldungen Valley.

StAnastasia
Frankly, I am beginning to want to know what diocese you belong to, too.

You state you are a trained theologian, but then you declare things any Catholic who has even breezed over the Catechism would object to.
 
CradleCath;6613921 Gays are welcomed into our Church said:
I don’t see why a person’s sexual orientation should bar him from the priesthood. All priests in our diocese are expected to lead chaste lives. If men were excluded from the priesthood simply on the basis of their sexual orientation, our clergy numbers would drop. Whom would that serve in an era of plummeting priestly numbers?
 
Julianna, I wouldn’t bother about SpiritusSanctus. This person is ignorant, bigoted, and mean-spirited. I would happily spend eternity in hell rather than five minutes in the presence of the “God” he/she worships, who gratuitously sends people to hell. I know what he/she has said is hurtful, but please don’t take it to heart.

StAnastasia
You meant “god” right?

Be careful here. The Church teaches that she, and only she, contains the One True Faith. She also admits and teaches that other religions do contain elements of the truth to varying degress but, due to their very natures, do not contain all the Truth; that is, the Deposit of Faith for which so many of our spiritual ancestors, the Saints and Martyrs, died defending and professing. They did not die in vain.

The rich blessings contained only in the Church -the Sacraments- are the sure way of salvation. The Sacramental Life and Economy is the greatest gift and only sure path on Earth. Our Savior sealed their power with His Precious Blood. To deny people these gifts is to rob them of their birthright as humans - humans who Christ died and suffered on a Cross to redeem.
 
Do you know of any religions teach that salvation can be reached by other then it’s own?
Most religions are fairly exclusivist; some forms of Hinduism are more inclusive. Considering that so many religious traditions consign to their imagined “hell” those billions unfortunate enough to follow another faith, everyone who has ever lived will eventually end up in someone else’s “hell.”

In my diocese we say with hope on Good Friday, “Let us pray for those who do not believe in God, that they may find him by sincerely following all that is right.”

StAnastasia
 
Most religions are fairly exclusivist; some forms of Hinduism are more inclusive. Considering that so many religious traditions consign to their imagined “hell” those billions unfortunate enough to follow another faith, everyone who has ever lived will eventually end up in someone else’s “hell.”
So what? You’re speaking like you actually believe everyone else’s imagination of who does and does not belong in hell is somehow bona-fide.
In my diocese we say with hope on Good Friday, “Let us pray for those who do not believe in God, that they may find him by sincerely following all that is right.”
That is a very good prayer.

But what do you imagine the Church is thinking of when she prays for those who do not know God, saying, “sincerely following all that is right”? Do you believe she has every precept of every non-Catholic religion in mind? No, she has the Truth in mind. She is praying everyone, in finding the Truth, will recognize it -in whatever form it comes to them. She is hoping they will sincerely follow the Truth, trusting that the pursuit of the Truth will ultimately lead them to profess belief in God from Whom all Truth comes, thus providing relief “for those who do not believe in God”.
 
So what? You’re speaking like you actually believe everyone else’s imagination of who does and does not belong in hell is somehow bona-fide.
Mormon’s reserve the highest heaven for members their sect. Jehovah’s Witnesses advertise 144,000 available heavenly seats. Catholics says “nulla salus extra ecclesiam.” Protestants say you can’t be saved unless you profess Jesus as your " personal Lord and Savior." Muslims say salvation comes only through profession of faith in Allah and Mohammed as his only prophet.

It seems a lot of exclusivist imaginations run rampant around the world!
 
Mormon’s reserve the highest heaven for members their sect. Jehovah’s Witnesses advertise 144,000 available heavenly seats. Catholics says “nulla salus extra ecclesiam.” Protestants say you can’t be saved unless you profess Jesus as your " personal Lord and Savior." Muslims say salvation comes only through profession of faith in Allah and Mohammed as his only prophet.

It seems a lot of exclusivist imaginations run rampant around the world!
Thank you for pointing out that Catholicism isn’t the only one with the exclusiveness. I have been, as I stated earlier…my grandmother’s church preached exclusiveness. It is difficult to understand this concept in the name of Tradition. Our paths may be different…but the goal is the same. (speaking of Christianity). There is still much to learn.

Please note…open to learning…not necessarily agreeing with all.
 
“No salvation outside of the Church” is in the Catechism and it is a quote of the Divine Doctors, the Church Fathers.
As you will recall, in the time of the Early Church Fathers, paganism was in the neighborhood. The intention of the Fathers was to make clear that there was a total difference between Jesus Christ and Roman mythological figures. Inside the Church was the true God. Outside of the Church was a bunch of pagan idols.

So the question was put to the Church Fathers - Where does our salvation come from? Looking around at the pagan temples, they answered that it was only from the true Catholic Church.

In the last few centuries, those pagan temples have been replaced by a multitude of Christian religions and sects all claiming that Jesus died for all people and thus salvation belonged to all people.

Of course Jesus died for all people. This is the explanation from the universal
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition,*ISBN: 1-57455-109-4 *
“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
CCC **849 **
The missionary mandate. “Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be ‘the universal sacrament of salvation,’ the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men”: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age.”

Christ, Who says that He is always with the Catholic Church, is the One who brings salvation to the ends of the earth. In other words, all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is His Body, us. This is the positive statement which missionaries have preached for centuries.

The positive statement was always contained in the original statement of the Early Church Fathers. As the Catechism was being put together, the ECF statement became positively expressed without losing its original intent.

This is from the universal Catechism:
The heading
for paragraphs 846 -849 is –
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
**846 **How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; He is present to us in His body which is the Church. He Himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16 & 17
 
Come on, Granny – as if I would trust someone who has the stake already erected, the chains fastened, and the wood piled around it!

But I’ll give you some hints: my diocese lies west of Canajoharie, north of Cartagena and east of Makaha. It lies in a more southerly latitude than the Skjoldungen Valley.

StAnastasia
Can’t imagine why you want to hide the name of your diocese. :rotfl:

Seriously, I really don’t need the name of your diocese. I already understand the demographics of Catholicism and where the problems are. :sad_yes:

Blessings,
granny

These two websites contain TV ads about Catholicism. The first is from one of the Dioceses which is using them. The second is general information.
 
Sure, anyone CAN enter Heaven, but just how many anti-Christians do you think go to Heaven? We won’t know for sure while we are on this earth, but I doubt the number is very high. If it’s true that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, how about explaining to me how it’s possible everyone can go to Heaven?

As for the false religions, you are either with God or against Him, there’s no in-between. So if God is the one and only God, and none of the false gods exist, who do you think they’re really worshiping? You can’t worship God by worshiping Buddha, just like you can’t worship God by worshiping Satan. Do you think someone who worships Satan goes to Heaven? That isn’t how it works. Hell isn’t empty. Hell is unfortunetly full of poor souls, which was evident in the vision seen by the three shepard children at Fatima. People who worship Buddha, for instance, think that the false god exists, but if they aren’t really worshiping God the Father then who else is there except the Devil? Protestants are not Satan worshipers, no. Satan may have helped organize their services but they still have every intent of worshiping God. Some of them just don’t know better. It’s only the Buddhists, paganists, henduists, etc. that are accidental Satan worshipers.
This is filled with illogical leaps and unfounded statements, but let me just make two simple suggestions. Isn’t it possible that those that are trying to worship the only God they understand are in effect worshiping the one true God? Does God impose a theology test on those that approach Him and reject those with too low a score? Our own understanding of God is not so perfect, is it? Second, if you don’t believe that, why isn’t it possible that their worship is simply a nullity - ineffectual? Why must it be true that one is worshipping God or Satan?
 
This is not an accurate statement if you take Fatima into consideration where Our Lady revealed the vision of souls “falling into Hell like raindrops.” To think that no one is going to Hell is a mistake.

The Church teaches that God knows who will be saved and not, yes. But Our Lady has shown us that there are multitudes who have been lost and are continuing to be lost.

Look at the painting of the Last Judgment. Michelangelo chose to paint many of the souls falling into Hell as clergy, a clear sign for those in the Vatican to understand that it is not just heathens and non-Catholics who are lost but those within the Church as well. It is painted on the wall of the Sistine Chapel to remind not just the faithful but the clergy of the reality and horror of Hell.
Fatima is private revelation, as has been discussed. The painting of the Last Judgment is a painting - not revelation or theology. We are taught to hope for the salvation of all souls. Many Saints and Fathers taught that the salvation of all is possible. I don’t know what God will do, but I don’t presume to tell Him that He can’t take everybody. I certainly hope He does.
 
You are wrong about that. A New York Times study found the following:
"Those ordained in 1970 and 1975 included the highest percentage of priests accused of abuse: 3.3 percent. More known offenders were ordained in the 1970’s than in any other decade." :

snapnetwork.org/news/otherstates/NYTimes_Survey.htm
Scroll down…
To claim that Vatican II had nothing to do with the huge infiltration of gay pederasts that caused such heartache to our young boys & our church is folly.
That might be right. But my point remains the same - the abuses have been going on for a very long time, centuries. I don’t see any connection between the abuses and Vatican II.
 
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