Restoring Tradition

[StAnastasia]

It’s far better that we learn areas of common ground and difference leaving each other more clearly understanding each other than living together in ignorance and hurtling false claims across religious boundaries… It makes for a far more civil environment than what existed prior to the council…

There remain problems of course…but the patient, often unglamorous process of discussing things will take us much further than instigating hatred and witch hunts…

Amen to that! Thank God the crusades are over, and the pogroms. A person who has inspired me is Thomas Merton, particularly in his engagement in dialogue with Buddhism.

 

[StAnastasia]

No, no, not at all. CradleCatholic was called a dude. She’s the dudette, a person who has earned my respect during her time here. I am a male chauvenist. I am not a fireman, but all kids love to dress as fireman. I guess it’s time for a new picture.

Cute kid! NRA junior member?

 

[Timothy17]

No one left their religious tradition… The sky did not fall down…

Please, let’s keep the Newspeak to a minimum.

A religious tradition is Christmas, for example. It applies to Christians only.

Going to pray for some ecumenical get-together is not in any religion’s tradition.

Your “faith tradition” (as my secular public school calls it) designates a religion. It manifestly insults said religion by presupposing you are only an adherent to that religion for the sake of tradition.

 

[brap]

Since we are talking tradition in the Mass why not go back even further. Attend a Orthodox Mass and see what how the celebration and communion were done 1700 years ago. One of the arguements the Orthodox make against the Catholics is the breaking of tradition.

And be prepared for a 3 hour rite in a language you probably will not understand.

 

[Layman]

Put my head round the door at an Orthodox mass some years ago. Looked good. Very good. Meant to go back.

 

[StAnastasia]

Your “faith tradition” (as my secular public school calls it) designates a religion. It manifestly insults said religion by presupposing you are only an adherent to that religion for the sake of tradition.

No, you misunderstand TPW. “Faith tradition” refers to the contents, character, psychology, structure, polity and other dimensions of a religion. Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Jainism Sikhism – these are “great” faith traditions due to their antiquity and their attraction of including the largest part of the world’s population.

I would agree that applying the word “tradition” to relatively new movements such as Wicca, Scientology, and perhaps even Mormonism might be problematical. The Mormons might even prefer “church” to “tradition.”

StAnastasia

 

[StAnastasia]

Since we are talking tradition in the Mass why not go back even further. Attend a Orthodox Mass and see what how the celebration and communion were done 1700 years ago. One of the arguements the Orthodox make against the Catholics is the breaking of tradition.

And be prepared for a 3 hour rite in a language you probably will not understand.

We once went to a Russian Orthodox Easter vigil that began at 10:00 p.m. and ended at dawn, eight hours later!

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

If one doesn’t accept Vatican II then certainly one by defition has removed him or herself from the Tradition. Sorry about that…

If the Holy Ghost was “unhappy” with the Assisi Day of Prayer…he/she certainly hasn’t expressed it at least as I’ve understood it… Interfaith dialogue continues to grow.

Speaking of the Holy Ghost let me tell you a little story. Several years ago as part of a class on cross cultural ministery I was enrolled in at Catholic Theological Union in Chicagto, we spent a week at the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota.

Among other things during the week, we learned of the terrible struggles going on in the reservation… Horrible drug and alcohol problems, incredible poverty (75% unemployment), high rates of spousal abuse, on-going racism with local ranchers, tension between those Sioux who retained their Christian identity and those who had returned to indigenous practices (the missionary’s serving the community had tried inculturation with varying degrees of success) and so on.

On the final evening we participated in a Sioux prayer ritual. Many of the people whose stories and suffering we’d learned about were present. Three men came in with musical instruments and a peace pipe. They led us in prayer chanting in Lakota.

About an hour into the ritual something like lights began flickering around the room (there were no other lights in the room beyond ceiling lights and these defintely weren’t ceiling lights) , a profound and I mean PROFOUND peace fell over the room. Several people who had told of us of their struggles began laughing for joy.

The chant reminded me of Hebrew chants I heard- very gutteral; the lights reminded me of the story in the Acts of the Apostles at Pentecost and the peace - a peace the world would not understand…

The Spirit moves in ways we don’t know…

I’m sorry but this comment is false. The Holy Ghost happy with the meeting at Assisi? Did the Church not previously teach that it was wrong to pray with people of different religions? It puts religions on the same level and that’s a dangerous thing. As I have already said, false religions (buddhism, paganism, henduism, etc.) were created by the Devil. We should be trying to convert people, not accepting their beliefs! The meeting at Assisi was a disgrace and a slap in the face. The Holy Ghost would never be pleased with a meeting that implied false religions were ok.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

And surprise…a development took place in the tradition. Pope John Paul’s assembly at Assisi in 1986 gathered religious figures from across denominations and faith traditions. They “came together to pray” as he put it.

Benedict attended a Muslim mosque and a Jewish synagogue.

No one left their religious tradition… The sky did not fall down…

It’s far better that we learn areas of common ground and difference leaving each other more clearly understanding each other than living together in ignorance and hurtling false claims across religious boundaries… It makes for a far more civil environment than what existed prior to the council…

There remain problems of course…but the patient, often unglamorous process of discussing things will take us much further than instigating hatred and witch hunts…

It actually makes a much more sinful and wrong environment than before Vatican II. You need to do some serious research. Vatican II has mis-led you and so many others.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

Amen to that! Thank God the crusades are over, and the pogroms. A person who has inspired me is Thomas Merton, particularly in his engagement in dialogue with Buddhism.

How can you be inspired by Buddhism if you’re a Catholic? What are you being taught at that place you said you attend? I’m curious. You cannot be inspired by a religion that was formed by the Devil.

 

[StAnastasia]

I’m sorry but this comment is false. The Holy Ghost happy with the meeting at Assisi? Did the Church not previously teach that it was wrong to pray with people of different religions? It puts religions on the same level and that’s a dangerous thing. As I have already said, false religions (buddhism, paganism, henduism, etc.) were created by the Devil. We should be trying to convert people, not accepting their beliefs! The meeting at Assisi was a disgrace and a slap in the face. The Holy Ghost would never be pleased with a meeting that implied false religions were ok.

Your comment is false. You have separated yourself from the Catholic Church by declaring other religious traditions to be creations of the devil.

From Nostra Aetate:

1. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

… The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men."

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

 

[StAnastasia]

What are you being taught at that place you said you attend? I’m curious. You cannot be inspired by a religion that was formed by the Devil.

The Russian Orthodox cathedral? Are you now condemning Orthodox Christianity as well? Do you think the “devil” created that tradition?

 

[tpw]

Mick 321 -
No drugs were consumed, distributed or used in any way prior to this ritual or during it.

My classmates included seminarians from several different religious communities and several lay students. Our two professors were also in attendance. All reported the same thing.

Again - you may not like the way the Holy Spirit moves - but the Spirit moves in ways we do not understand

 

[StAnastasia]

Again - you may not like the way the Holy Spirit moves - but the Spirit moves in ways we do not understand

As I said, I think Barbara Haggerty would be interested in hearing about this experience. She had a similar thing happen, although it didn’t involve lights so much as a sensation of preternatural warmth (they were outside on a cold day) felt by everyone. It’s recounted in Fingerprints of God.

 

[tpw]

My point was that there is nothing inherently wrong with inter-faith dialogue. Of course an event like Assisi is not of one, particular religious tradition. That was JPII"s point of “coming together to pray”.

I am Catholic because from my understanding of Jesus Christ as represented by the RC Church (non-withstanding some of her graver historical blunders - hence JP II’s apologies during the Jubilee Year) makes the most sense to me.

One can talk about the movement of the Holy Spirit in other religious traditions WITHOUT negating the question of degree. As I tried to explain to my students using the metaphor of a rheostatic light switch - all religions may reflect in greater and lesser degrees spirituality - from a Catholic point of view (and perhaps also the Orthodox) we represent a fuller expression…

 

[Timothy17]

Your comment is false. You have separated yourself from the Catholic Church …
From Nostra Aetate:

1. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

… The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men."

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

The lady doth protest too much.

The evidence given does not support the claim made.

Nothing in the provided quote refutes in the least the possibility of demonic elements or inspirations existing in other religions. The quote states that there is the very real possibility of genuine good or reflections of Truth in other religions; nonetheless, it speaks of this truth and goodness as one might speak of a flash of lightning during a midnight thunderstorm.

 

[Timothy17]

“Faith tradition” refers to the contents, character, psychology, structure, polity and other dimensions of a religion.

StAnastasia

Again with the newspeak.

Faith is divinely granted grace to believe or desire to believe. It was a grace that lead me to desire conversion. Tradition is the handing on of things from generation to generation; for example, we speak of Western Societies all having and keeping a “Military Tradition.” This is appropriate terminology for human traditions, and expresses the right idea.

Faith and Tradition are two different things that Catholics have and teach in our religion.

A “faith tradition” in popular usage explicitly implies 1) the equality of all religions, and 2) outward faith manifested for the sake of tradition; for example,

"Question:

Please state your faith tradition (if applicable): ________ "

Faith is not acquired by tradition. It is a theological virtue and therefore in the order of Grace. What is meant by the term is religion. Why someone would take a single, common word like religion and supplant it with the longer term, “faith tradition” (which is in fact an oxymoron) is beyond me.

EDIT:ADDED:

Ask yourself honestly if the following make sense:

Hope tradition.
Charity tradition.
Prudence tradition.
Justice tradition.
Fortitude tradition.
Temperance tradition.

 

[StAnastasia]

One can talk about the movement of the Holy Spirit in other religious traditions WITHOUT negating the question of degree. As I tried to explain to my students using the metaphor of a rheostatic light switch - all religions may reflect in greater and lesser degrees spirituality - from a Catholic point of view (and perhaps also the Orthodox) we represent a fuller expression…

In my theology seminars I sometimes use the metaphor of a wheel, with the religious traditions as the spokes that lead from human experience at the rim to God or truth at the hub.

 

[StAnastasia]

Faith is not acquired by tradition. It is a theological virtue and therefore in the order of Grace. What is meant by the term is religion. Why someone would take a single, common word like religion and supplant it with the longer term, “faith tradition” (which is in fact an oxymoron) is beyond me.

Timothy, you are in serious need of some theological updating. When was the last time you either took or taught a graduate course in Catholic theology?

 

[Layman]

The truth doesn’t need updating. Unless you’re joking with that remark.