Restoring Tradition

[grannymh]

Sure, anyone CAN enter Heaven, but just how many anti-Christians do you think go to Heaven? We won’t know for sure while we are on this earth, but I doubt the number is very high. If it’s true that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, how about explaining to me how it’s possible everyone can go to Heaven?

Please factor in the concept of free will choice. The “can” actually depends on how we seek God or seek a lesser god. “can” also depends on circumstances.

Christ died so that all can go to heaven. Here is one explanation from the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

CCC **1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

The following reminds me of the saying:
Never underestimate the power of God to touch a soul.

CCC 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.

snip

God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments.

Blessings,
granny

Link to Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition – www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Layman]

Layman;6611973:

Vatican II is an artificial cut-off point anyway. **Bugnini created a new missal in 1955, I understand. Priests were modifying the rite before the 1965 Missal, I think. **

Some things which may have contributed to the crisis: the laxity that occurred after the 60’s.

I’ve got a little problem with the statement I emboldened. Do you have proof the Bugnini did as you say. I’m not saying that he didn’t, but…since I’ve heard nothing about that…I’d just like some verification. Also, as one who attended the TLM for 24 yrs., I can say that, in my diocese, no one was “modifiying” the Mass, prior to 1969. We DID have the dialog Latin Mass daily at the Catholic girls high school I attended & I truly loved that.

See here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annibale_Bugnini

[My bolding]

Serving Pius XII

On May 28, 1948, Pope Pius XII appointed him Secretary to the Commission for Liturgical Reform.[5] This body was responsible for the creation of a new rite for the celebration of the Easter Vigil (1951) and then for the creation of new ceremonies for the rest of Holy Week (1955). That same year, Bugnini’s office changed the rubrics of the Mass and Office, suppressing most of the Church’s octaves and a number of vigils, and abolishing the First Vespers of most feasts.

In his book The Simplification of the Rubrics, explaining the changes, Monsignor Bugnini commented, “The present decree has a contingent character. It is essentially a bridge between the old and the new, and if you will, an arrow indicating the direction taken by the current restoration.” It went on to reform the Code of Rubrics (1960) which affected both the Mass and the Divine Office before producing new editions of the Roman Breviary in 1961 and the Roman Missal in 1962.[6] The liturgical changes which Bugnini implemented between 1951 and 1962, which are still reflected in the 1962 Missal and Breviary, laid the ground for the creation of a new form of the Roman rite after Vatican II.

 

[CradleCath]

Julianna, I wouldn’t bother about SpiritusSanctus. This person is ignorant, bigoted, and mean-spirited. **I would happily spend eternity in hell **rather than five minutes in the presence of the “God” he/she worships, who gratuitously sends people to hell. I know what he/she has said is hurtful, but please don’t take it to heart.

StAnastasia

While I don’t always agree with SpiritusSanctus, especially his ideas about Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, I have NEVER seen him/her write a post as cruel & mean as this one. Shame on you!

 

[Aramis]

The TLM is the true Mass of the Church. Archbishop LeFebvre referred to it as the “Mass of all Times”.

Archbishop LeFebvre also publicly broke his vow of Obedience… for many, that makes him a less than credible source.

And beware that second “the”… for the Church has had multiple different divine worship services since the earliest recorded times… and the Anaphora of St. James is older than the Roman Canon.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

SpiritusSanctus;6612912:

Your black-and-white thinking is an indication of immature spiritual development that has been arrested in adolescence.

They are worshipping God, of course, who goes by names such as Elohim, Allah, Deus, Theos, Dieu, etc.

If this is your crude understanding of Buddhism, you are suffering from hemorrhaging ignorance.

More ignorance – no one worships the Buddha.

I can’t tell whether the above reflects arrogance or just plain ignorance.

I suppose here you are simply speaking out of ignorance of other traditions.

Saying I suffer from ignorance and arrogance is also a violation of forum rules. Please, if you can’t be nice in your replies then don’t bother replying to my posts.

And don’t tell me I am ignorant on this subject when you don’t even bother doing research.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

brap;6613501:

This is nonsense.

How is it nonsense? The Church has taught for thousands of years that this is true. If you think this is a world where everyone goes to Heaven no matter what then you are horribly mistaken and if this is what you believe I see no reason to continue this discussion with you.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand your phrase “look at Paul VI”, what are you saying (or inferring) about Pope Paul?

Someone pointed out that there were people involved with Vatican II that were servants of the Church before the Council even began. When I said look at Paul VI, I meant he was a servant before the Council as well.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

This is filled with illogical leaps and unfounded statements, but let me just make two simple suggestions. Isn’t it possible that those that are trying to worship the only God they understand are in effect worshiping the one true God? Does God impose a theology test on those that approach Him and reject those with too low a score? Our own understanding of God is not so perfect, is it? Second, if you don’t believe that, why isn’t it possible that their worship is simply a nullity - ineffectual? Why must it be true that one is worshipping God or Satan?

Because God and Satan are the two figures here. If Satan created the false religions then how could someone who practices those religions be worshiping God? Do you honestly think God would start a religion that worships another “god”?

 

[Bbigam]

Because God and Satan are the two figures here. If Satan created the false religions then how could someone who practices those religions be worshiping God? Do you honestly think God would start a religion that worships another “god”?

God can bring great good out of great evil. The Exultet from the Easter Vigil makes this clear:

O happy fault,
O necessary sin of Adam,
which gained for us so great a Redeemer!

Of course it doesn’t make it okay that Adam sinned, it was a grievous thing! But great good came from it in the form of Christ, the Word Made Flesh, and his Passion and Resurrection.

Of course God didn’t create false religions, and the false religions themselves will not lead us to salvation at all. But little grains of truth can be in them (with much falsehood). I think that there can be some devout followers of other religions who unknowingly actually worship the true God in their personal quests for the Truth and for right living, despite the false teachings of their religion. From Lumen Gentium 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

Nothing here suggests that all roads (or even more than one road) lead to Heaven. These other religions are false. But God, in Hid great mercy, does not turn away those who truly seek Him with all that they have yet have no opportunity to accept the Gospel and the Sacraments explicitly.

Clearly, though, by far the best and only sure way to final salvation is within the Catholic Church, devoutly following all that it teaches on faith and morals. This is also the only way for those who know better.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Timothy, you are in serious need of some theological updating. When was the last time you either took or taught a graduate course in Catholic theology?

may i ask you where did you get you theology studies from? which university did you go to?

 

[wisdomseeker]

God can bring great good out of great evil. The Exultet from the Easter Vigil makes this clear:

Of course it doesn’t make it okay that Adam sinned, it was a grievous thing! But great good came from it in the form of Christ, the Word Made Flesh, and his Passion and Resurrection.

Of course God didn’t create false religions, and the false religions themselves will not lead us to salvation at all. But little grains of truth can be in them (with much falsehood). I think that there can be some devout followers of other religions who unknowingly actually worship the true God in their personal quests for the Truth and for right living, despite the false teachings of their religion. From Lumen Gentium 16:

Nothing here suggests that all roads (or even more than one road) lead to Heaven. These other religions are false. But God, in Hid great mercy, does not turn away those who truly seek Him with all that they have yet have no opportunity to accept the Gospel and the Sacraments explicitly.

Clearly, though, by far the best and only sure way to final salvation is within the Catholic Church, devoutly following all that it teaches on faith and morals. This is also the only way for those who know better.

and why would you assume such things? if Jesus did not spear His own people, the Jews, for their unbelief on Him, what makes you think that He is going to spear those from false religions who refuse to believe in Him through the one True Church which He sent to the preach the Gospel to the whole world? tell me, do you think the Church should stop evangelizing?

youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV#p/a/u/0/otODSOV3__I

 

[Julianna]

God can bring great good out of great evil. The Exultet from the Easter Vigil makes this clear:

Of course it doesn’t make it okay that Adam sinned, it was a grievous thing! But great good came from it in the form of Christ, the Word Made Flesh, and his Passion and Resurrection.

Of course God didn’t create false religions, and the false religions themselves will not lead us to salvation at all. But little grains of truth can be in them (with much falsehood). I think that there can be some devout followers of other religions who unknowingly actually worship the true God in their personal quests for the Truth and for right living, despite the false teachings of their religion. From Lumen Gentium 16:

Nothing here suggests that all roads (or even more than one road) lead to Heaven. **These other religions are false. ** But God, in Hid great mercy, does not turn away those who truly seek Him with all that they have yet have no opportunity to accept the Gospel and the Sacraments explicitly.

Clearly, though, by far the best and only sure way to final salvation is within the Catholic Church, devoutly following all that it teaches on faith and morals. This is also the only way for those who know better.

Certainly glad you settled that…Catholics can now rest peacefully while Protestants and other Christian religions can all all freaky…

and I thought I had heard it all…

 

[Bbigam]

and why would you assume such things? if Jesus did not spear His own people, the Jews, for their unbelief on Him, what makes you think that He is going to spear those from false religions who refuse to believe in Him through the one True Church which He sent to the preach the Gospel to the whole world? tell me, do you think the Church should stop evangelizing?

One reason I “assume such things” is because our Church teaches them through Lumen Gentium section 16, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, as I quoted. The official teaching of the Church is a sure norm for what we should believe.

Of course the Church should not stop evangelizing! Never! If you would read that section of Lumen Gentium, and also the relevent sections from the Catechism, especially 848 and following, you would see that the Church makes it clear that we are still to evangelize.

By the way, the word you want is “spare.” I didn’t say that He would spare those from false religions who refuse to believe in Him, and Lumen Gentium and the Catechism don’t say that either. This isn’t about people who refuse Christ, it’s about people who never had the opportunity to learn about Him, yet did their best to follow Him without knowing His name. And as I said in my other post:

Clearly, though, by far the best and only sure way to final salvation is within the Catholic Church, devoutly following all that it teaches on faith and morals. This is also the only way for those who know better.

It should be clear from that that evangelization is still extremely important. I often wonder if some people actually read the posts they vehemently respond to.

 

[Bbigam]

Certainly glad you settled that…Catholics can now rest peacefully while Protestants and other Christian religions can all all freaky…

and I thought I had heard it all…

I’ll be honest, I have no idea what you are trying to say here. I can’t tell if you agree with me or think I’m saying something preposterous…

 

[pnewton]

Their is no spiritual benefit from either name calling or looking into other religions. We don’t even follow our own Faith. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph.

An interesting and though-provoking sentiment.

 

[pnewton]

brap;6613501:

This is nonsense.

That was dogma. (Outside the Church there is not salvation) There was an excellent article in This Rock on this formulation. It should be available on-line in the future.

 

[grannymh]

StAnastasia;6613829:

That was dogma. (Outside the Church there is not salvation) There was an excellent article in This Rock

on this formulation. It should be available on-line in the future.

The meaning is that all salvation comes through Jesus Christ Who hung bleeding on the Cross. We must never underestimate His Divine power to touch all souls, regardless.
…

 

[StAnastasia]

may i ask you where did you get you theology studies from? which university did you go to?

I studied at Oxford University in England, at U.C. Berkeley, and at various Jesuit universities.

 

[StAnastasia]

and why would you assume such things? if Jesus did not spear His own people, the Jews,]

How long a spear did he use?

 

[StAnastasia]

1. I would certainly hope you’ve read of Catholic Priests performing exorcisms: it’s their job.

You referred in contemptuous tones to Hindu exorcisms. I’m merely pointing out that the the same exorcism nonsense occurs in Catholicism. You can’t have it both ways.

Catholics have a positive right to believe in Fatima. We do not have to -it is not necessary for salvation by any stretch of the imagination- but Catholics are permitted to believe in it as authentic.

I’m glad you find it edifying.

You’re joking right? The expression, “No salvation outside of the Church” is in the Catechism and it is a quote of the Divine Doctors, the Church Fathers.

That’s out-dated exclusionary language. I live in a part of the world with many different faith traditions, and with active dialogue between Christians, Buddhists, Jews and Muslims. The experience of our human unity in the quest for religious truth renders your exclusionary rhetoric not only useless, but harmful.