Resurrection? Why?

[simplynoone]

Not really… I am not one stuck to a one track train of thought… I am able to go where it is the discussion leads and like to do so… I still maintain that resurrection as is claimed by the Christian mentality is not a fact. It is a conceptual metaphor of Israel returning to their land or a person becoming aware of the fact that THIS IS LIFE… this IS to be in God’s presence. Genesis 3 … the subtle deception that played on the emotions was to cater to the woman’s sensebilities. I would rather LIVE in truth while in Life than to deceive myself into ignorance … which was the death spoken of. Physical death is natural and is GOING TO HAPPEN for each and every one of us… so what are you doing to make you life in the presence of God count while you have it? Me? I am trying to at least plant seeds to make others consider as is encouraged by the prophets.

I do not disagree with Moses and the Law as you accuse me of ignorance. The difference between you and the Law, and me living in Grace, is that you hold to the Law of which I admit I cannot keep, that is why I rely on God’s saving grace through Jesus Christ who fulfilled the Law and the prophets. You ask where does it say this? I point you to the Law and the prophets. But because you remain in the Law, you become blind to the Saving Grace that fulfilled the Law. The Law brings fear and convicts, so I admire your brave stance on this matter, but it is truly fear that keeps you in bondage to the Law. I too am stout and unmoved in my faith of rock. But by admitting my weakness to God, God saves me with his Grace and Mercy from the Law, by Jesus blood sacrifice which paid the price of the Law that convicts me to death.

*Mercy is what was revealed through the Law of Moses… it is like the credit we take out for the Truth. Grace is the payment to others who are under the merciful Laws that can only be given once payment is made. What is the payment? Understanding and Wisdom… it causes us to move and to not remain stale worthless sitters in a waiting room in which we will only be called out of via death. This is where we become aware… there is no other. This IS His creation and He called it good. That humans in general don’t see it is only to their own hurt… their waste of what they were given. *

Grace revealed in the teachings of Jesus forgives for the other person’s benefit and does not because the person giving it needs it for their own self. The latter is selfish… no worries… I see your fate being no different than mine… just that our seeds are different… mine are in hopes to inspire others to seek and find Life. What are yours for? To find death? If you are seeking reward that will only come with death, then yes… it is to seek death.

Understanding the only way for a Divine covenant to be fulfilled is for the testator to die. That is why you have many in the old covenant dieing which breaks them from the Law. God sent his son, to pay for the covenant that frees us from eternal death into life everlasting. The old covenant does not give grace and mercy but only convicts and death.

God does not breaks His Laws… He established them for purpose… only man seeks to break that bond with whatever deceptive devices they can conjure up in their minds. That God works within the Laws He established only means that those who seek to have it blotted from out of their minds for reasons of guilt and for thought to reward cheat their own selves. :imsorry: Such a shame, no? To break the Law is not the worst that you can do… to not regard it… that is the tragedy (of course, for Gentiles, I am speaking of the Laws of Nature as it is how it is God works with us… for the Jewish, they have theirs to naturally draw on our curiosities… to be the Light for us… to make us question and wonder… instead, replacement is sought out without any regard to the work of the “hands” of God… Psalm 28:4-9).

 

[simplynoone]

This is an excerpt from Rob Bell and Don Golden’s ‘Jesus Wants to Save Christians,’

"…A meal unlike any other.

And central to this Passover meal is the command never to forget it. They are told to set aside the date and make it the beginning of their calendar, because time will now be marked by this event.

“When your children ask you,… then tell them, ‘It is Passover sacrifice to the LORD who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.’”

A lamb sacrificed for the people becomes the flash point for God’s revolution. Blood on the doorposts of the house of Israel.

This even took on significance later, as the exiles in Babylon made connections between their situation and their ancestors’ slavery in Egypt. As the prophets painted bigger and wider pictures of what the new exodus would look like, they realized that all of creation was in a sort of exile and for all of creation to leave exile and come home it would take more than the blood of an innocent lamb.

Sin would have to be dealt with in an entirely new way.

The prophets described a suffering servant, a firstborn child among God’s firstborn nation who would take upon himself the burden not only of Israel’s exile, but of the exile of all of humanity.

Isaiah said that a first born son of Israel would emerge and he would be despised and rejected, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. The suffering he would endure would be such that people would hide their faces from him; he would take the pain and suffering of others upon himself. he would not look like the powerful rulers of empire, but would be considered punished by God, stricken and afflicted.

The prophet Isaiah promised that someday, suffering and exiled Israel would produce a suffering servant who would not be spared. This sacrificial lamb would be a man, a firstborn son, and he would take the path not of violence and coercion, but of sacrifice.

Just before the birth of Jesus, Joseph returned to Bethlehem, “the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David,” where Mary “gave birth to her firstborn, a son.”

Jesus the lamb,

but a different kind of lamb.

A son of David,

but a different kind.

God’s firstborn.

(cont…)

Why the resurrection - Jesus conquered death.

Alright… so FINE!! Use Jesus as a passover lamb… I am not so opposed… just PASSOVER ALREADY!!! Quit waiting until your life is GONE! Use what you claim you were given… the ability to cover sins of ignorance in your perceived sacrifice and passover to the Truth… to what TRULY converts your soul. What is that? You can find it in Psalm 19. Read up and let me know… is it blood that converts your soul? You only have Life now. Use it for good… to help those who are in the generations to come realize Truth. I promise… if you ACTUALLY OPEN YOUR EYES to Life within the Laws without excuse, you will find it.

So… are we all good? Use your perceived sacrifice to give you the guts to see what it is in the Laws of God, given in the Torah, that Jesus loved so that he claimed that those who did not teach them would be considered the least in the Kingdom of God.

 

[simplynoone]

Thanks, but having read your posts and respecting the firmness of your stand, I sense that such an explication would “Simply” not be producitve. Blessings and Best,

Bindar.

*Odd, considering that I would wholly agree with the signature you have chosen… “Question your mind. Your unexamined thoughts are the source of your suffering.” ~ Byron Katie

I am not wholly opposed as others to the idea of reincarnation… just not in the mystical, hoped for sense that most take on. The spirit given to us by God, the breath of Life, is said to return to Him… If it were to return to the earth, I think it would do so more in a natural way… DNA is quite complex, no? I do not believe that any will return as they are or in the physical bodies… but that DNA IS quite a complex and programmed part of our natural life, well… given that the Tanakh says 'the life is in the blood"… it gives cause to consider, no? And I am always one for considering… just not on fairytales is all.*

 

[swplan76]

*Alright… so FINE!! Use Jesus as a passover lamb… I am not so opposed… *

Ok… (?)
simplynoone;5358239:

just PASSOVER ALREADY!!! Quit waiting until your life is GONE! Use what you claim you were given… the ability to cover sins of ignorance in your perceived sacrifice and passover to the Truth

… to what TRULY converts your soul. What is that?

What truly converts the soul?

Romans 2:15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

2Cor. 3:You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Jer. 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Jesus came to fulfill the law (Matt. 5:17). It isn’t that he came to abolish it, but to change our relationship to it.

In John 14-16 Jesus explains to His disciples about the coming of the Holy Spirit. In believers, the HS lives in us. It teaches, reminds and comforts us. I believe that it is the power of God that converts the soul, the work of Jesus love for us that really changes us. All of this happens because the **law **becomes written on our hearts through the covenant that Jesus brings.

So… are we all good? Use your perceived sacrifice to give you the guts to see what it is in the Laws of God, given in the Torah, that Jesus loved so

that he claimed that those who did not teach them would be considered the least in the Kingdom of God.

In Romans 5:20-21 it says, “The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased grace increased all the more, so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

And in Romans 8:3-8 it says, “For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires… The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.”

The Spirit is what makes living in peace with God possible. The law becomes written on our hearts and the Spirit works in us to transform/convert our hearts.

This is only possible through the love of God.

God chose to reveal His love for us through the sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[swplan76]

This is an excerpt from Rob Bell and Don Golden’s ‘Jesus Wants to Save Christians,’

"…A meal unlike any other.

And central to this Passover meal is the command never to forget it. They are told to set aside the date and make it the beginning of their calendar, because time will now be marked by this event.

“When your children ask you,… then tell them, ‘It is Passover sacrifice to the LORD who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.’”

A lamb sacrificed for the people becomes the flash point for God’s revolution. Blood on the doorposts of the house of Israel.

This even took on significance later, as the exiles in Babylon made connections between their situation and their ancestors’ slavery in Egypt. As the prophets painted bigger and wider pictures of what the new exodus would look like, they realized that all of creation was in a sort of exile and for all of creation to leave exile and come home it would take more than the blood of an innocent lamb.

Sin would have to be dealt with in an entirely new way.

The prophets described a suffering servant, a firstborn child among God’s firstborn nation who would take upon himself the burden not only of Israel’s exile, but of the exile of all of humanity.

Isaiah said that a first born son of Israel would emerge and he would be despised and rejected, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. The suffering he would endure would be such that people would hide their faces from him; he would take the pain and suffering of others upon himself. he would not look like the powerful rulers of empire, but would be considered punished by God, stricken and afflicted.

The prophet Isaiah promised that someday, suffering and exiled Israel would produce a suffering servant who would not be spared. This sacrificial lamb would be a man, a firstborn son, and he would take the path not of violence and coercion, but of sacrifice.

Just before the birth of Jesus, Joseph returned to Bethlehem, “the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David,” where Mary “gave birth to her firstborn, a son.”

Jesus the lamb,

but a different kind of lamb.

A son of David,

but a different kind.

God’s firstborn.

(cont…)

Why the resurrection - Jesus conquered death.

…"God’s firstborn.

John the Baptist understood this, declaring, when he first saw Jesus, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”

And what does Jesus do on the night He’s betrayed and arrested? He has a Passover meal with His disciples.

And its at this meal,

the Passover meal,

that he takes the bread and says, “This is my body,”

and then he takes the cup and says, “This is my blood.”

Jesus takes the ritual remembrance of that night unlike any other and makes it about himself.

He’s about the be arrested, put on trial, and then hung on a cross to die. He knows this. He knows where this is headed.

This time the firstborn will not be spared. This time the lamb is God’s own Son and no substitute will be given (as with Abraham and Isaac, or in Egypt). The cup will not be taken away from Him."

(cont…)

 

[swplan76]

…"God’s firstborn.

John the Baptist understood this, declaring, when he first saw Jesus, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”

And what does Jesus do on the night He’s betrayed and arrested? He has a Passover meal with His disciples.

And its at this meal,

the Passover meal,

that he takes the bread and says, “This is my body,”

and then he takes the cup and says, “This is my blood.”

Jesus takes the ritual remembrance of that night unlike any other and makes it about himself.

He’s about the be arrested, put on trial, and then hung on a cross to die. He knows this. He knows where this is headed.

This time the firstborn will not be spared. This time the lamb is God’s own Son and no substitute will be given (as with Abraham and Isaac, or in Egypt). The cup will not be taken away from Him."

(cont…)

For Jesus, his coming death is about the new exodus. Betrayed by a friend, a victim of injustice and cruelty at the hands of religion in collusion with empire, God’s Son chooses the path of a lamb.

In the first exodus, the lamb’s blood was placed on the door posts of the house for the salvation of the Israelites who lived there. In the new exodus, Jesus’ blood is about something bigger.

Paul describes Jesus as “the firstborn,” but not the firstborn of a single household. Not the representative of a people suffering in Egypt. Paul describes Jesus as “the firstborn over all creation.” The blood of this lamb is about something far bigger. Jesus is the representative of the entire human family. **His blood covers the entire created order. **Jesus is saving everyone and everything. Jesus is leading all of creation out of the Egypt of violence, sin and death. All that was lost at the garden, in exile east of Eden, is being redeemed in the act of the firstborn son.

(cont…)

 

[Lapell]

What then, Lapell, do you do with Mark 13:32, which directly conflicts what is you and others claim… that they are 3 in one god. Obviously they are NOT 3 in 1 godstatus… the son is, from the NT point of view, below the Father God. If they were of the same status (three in one), then the son would not have information withheld from him. Thus, the Father god in the trinitarian christian view is the higher status god and the son god along with the spirit god is lower status. (also conflicts what Jesus said in John 4:24, by the way). Wow… you have some explaining to do for me. (this is typically when I would get thrown out of Bible class in highschool by the teachers who could not answer this question and neither cared for actual Truth over what they wanted to perceive as truth to make their own selves feel better. Same goes in these forums discussions… I will be written off by others for posing this legitimate question. I wonder, will YOU be the one who finally answers this with authority according to the Truth of the matter, that there is two gods of lower status not privy to the information of the father god, the higher god… or will you too say I am speaking blasphemy and that it is a mystery unable to be explained when all it is I am trying to do is get us to the heart of the Truth. Be careful because I have a verse of condemnation from the words attributed to Jesus if you do the latter).

Dear s., a son who is submitted to his father will consider him higher than him. It is like when Jesus says to Peter: “Go behind me, satan!” The one who leads go in front, and the disciples are those who follow the teacher who leads. “Satan” here isn’t the devil, for the meaning of Satan, a priest taught us, is “obstacle”, and Jesus tells him that what Peter said was putting an obstacle to His mission with the words he uttered.And so he urged Peter to go behind Him, to be a faithful disciple.

 

[Lapell]

Dear s., a son who is submitted to his father will consider him higher than him. It is like when Jesus says to Peter: “Go behind me, satan!” The one who leads go in front, and the disciples are those who follow the teacher who leads. “Satan” here isn’t the devil, for the meaning of Satan, a priest taught us, is “obstacle”, and Jesus tells him that what Peter said was putting an obstacle to His mission with the words he uttered.And so he urged Peter to go behind Him, to be a faithful disciple.

As for the Holy Trinity being One God and not 3 gods, have you never noticed that Jesus, in Mt 28, 19… asked His Apostles to make disciples in all nations and to baptize them in the NAME of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? “The Name”, not “the names”?

 

[Lapell]

No Lapell, I do not remember… however, I do not doubt you either since I have most likely stated it over and over. The reason is because I, of all people, know that I will never convince you of anything I say… and if I do, then shame on you. I am only urging you and everyone else reading to consider what I say and compare it with honesty of heart (MEANING WITHOUT THOUGHT TO REWARD OR PUNISHMENT) to what is said in the foundaton. You may find yourself as surprised as I have found my ownself. That is all. In the end, we all will go back to the dust… so I only hope to inspire purpose of life in others rather than to just watch the waiting room atmosphere that has been going on for far too long. There is Truth and then there is the words that we might perceive as truth because of our own deceptive motivations… I want to discover the former, don’t you?

I still will ask you what I asked Ben Masada once: “If God Almighty happens to offer you eternal life, will you not say yes to it?”

 

[Lapell]

There is Truth and then there is the words that we might perceive as truth because of our own deceptive motivations… I want to discover the former, don’t you?

Of course I do… but be careful not to assume too quickly that those hoping for eternal life are necessarily wrong. I am one of them. You don’t believe in Jesus the Christ. I do. Don’t be too quick to say we are wrong.

 

[Lapell]

In saying this, I still respect your beliefs. I wish you to find the whole Truth. Or rather, that the full Truth finds you. God bless you…

 

[robsully]

Hello again and again great discussion.

Thank you Simplenoone for your reply, as a Gentile I found it interesting.

Although no replies were directed to me from the Christians there has been reasons given none-the-less. But I still ask “why”? Let me explain.

If 1/3 of the trinity sacrificed itself for the forgiveness of sins, what was wrong with the method of reconciliation pre- N.T.

If it was to conquer death, is Jesus not God therefore the creator of life, death,and the whole cosmos. Conquering death seems to be a small issue for the One who created it.

To fullfil the law as per a new covenant written in Jeremiah. I have read the text and it clearly states it is for Judah and Israel only. It leaves me,a Gentile, out.

I have no desire to become a Jew. But in my search for an understanding of God I seek logic in my quest.

Could someone help me in my search?

Thank you for your time and patients.

 

[simplynoone]

I still will ask you what I asked Ben Masada once: “If God Almighty happens to offer you eternal life, will you not say yes to it?”

I would rather be thankful for what Life I have been given and rather seek out something more beneficial to not only myself, but also to those who come after me while have this Life I have been given; that being Wisdom and Understanding. To have a beginning and to have an end is, to the one seeking Wisdom, a good thing. To those who want eternal Life for their own self, the question would be why? Your answer might reveal to you why eternal life asked for would never be granted and why those who ask for wisdom for its own sake will find eternal Lifea (still, they themselves will have a beginning and an end… and the wise person sees the wisdom in the way our Creator established his creation).

 

[simplynoone]

Of course I do… but be careful not to assume too quickly that those hoping for eternal life are necessarily wrong. I am one of them. You don’t believe in Jesus the Christ. I do. Don’t be too quick to say we are wrong.

In Genesis 3, the serpent represented knowledge and notice that it drew on the selfish inclination…

This was in order to set mankind on their journey toward Wisdom. Notice the judgments… they are not harsh, but they are for your sake. Wisdom can not be handed to you. You fear death… why because it is a void you don’t know. That fear is the beginning of Wisdom. Without death, there would not be Life for us. What you want is existence, not Life. Also, I am not saying that it is wrong to want to exist eternally, only that it is a selfish desire for it would benefit no one but your own self. To maintain that line of thinking is to deny Truth. We all die and there is not one thing that testifies to us… ANY OF US… that we will exist eternally and almost everything else to testify the opposite. And it is good.

 

[simplynoone]

Ok… (?)

My point is to say that if it makes you feel comfortable to start seeking the Truth in the Tanakh, than you will come to the realization that another person CANNOT die for your sins… this is the Truth. Jesus could not die for the sins of mankind.

About the only thing good that could come from it is understanding and wisdom. That so many other Jewish have died even more horrendously yet are not considered as equal in their sufferings is to choose to acknowledge one man’s suffering simply because it benefits you (generic) personally. Else, there would have been change for the better in the world since the Christian religion began rather than things remaining the same (if not declining, in fact).

What truly converts the soul?

Romans 2:15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

2Cor. 3:You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Jer. 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Jesus came to fulfill the law (Matt. 5:17). It isn’t that he came to abolish it, but to change our relationship to it.

In John 14-16 Jesus explains to His disciples about the coming of the Holy Spirit. In believers, the HS lives in us. It teaches, reminds and comforts us. I believe that it is the power of God that converts the soul, the work of Jesus love for us that really changes us. All of this happens because the **law **becomes written on our hearts through the covenant that Jesus brings.

Jesus also said in Matthew 5 that those who do not teach the Law are considered the least. There is good reason and you will find it in Psalm 19:7-14.

The Law is a mirror… NOT AN OUTWARD mirror, but one that is inward… thus, the explanation of Jeremiah 31:33. The Law being written on the heart of someone will be evident in how it is they speak of it. That it is not written on the heart of others is evident in what it is they consider their saving grace… the death of one Jewish man.

If the Law were truly understood, then it would be clear that a man can not die for the sins of another… it is not there and for good reason. Psalm 19:7-14… words of wisdom, truly.

In Romans 5:20-21 it says, “The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased grace increased all the more, so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

And in Romans 8:3-8 it says, “For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires… The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.”

This is nothing more than Paul taking bits of Truth and turning it into lies to deceive others for his agenda… Do you see, it is not Jesus’ teachings you all actually believe… it is Paul’s.

Jesus pointed to the Scriptures (which is the Tanakh and not the NT). Psalm 19:7-9. If you believe what Paul said above, then you do not believe what it is Jesus believed and confirmed. The Law is not powerless. There is not a requirement in the Law, is stated by Paul, that allows for a man to be murdered/sacrificed for another’s sins. But in fact, there is much in the Torah that directly states otherwise.

The Spirit is what makes living in peace with God possible. The law becomes written on our hearts and the Spirit works in us to transform/convert our hearts.

This is only possible through the love of God.

**God chose to reveal His love for us through the sacrifice of Jesus.

This is why Christianity is not based at all on the teachings of the Tanakh. This directly conflicts what it is stated in the Torah. The Tanakh as a whole is a writing utterly opposed to this type of mystical thinking.**

 

[simplynoone]

…"God’s firstborn.

John the Baptist understood this, declaring, when he first saw Jesus, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”

Apparently he did not, else he would have known the firstborn Son of God had been declared both in Exodus 4:22,23 and in Hosea 11:1… it is not a man, but a People.

And what does Jesus do on the night He’s betrayed and arrested? He has a Passover meal with His disciples.

And its at this meal,

the Passover meal,

that he takes the bread and says, “This is my body,”

and then he takes the cup and says, “This is my blood.”

I hate to be the one to inform you all that this is mysticism… it was bread and it was wine. It is forbidden for the Jewish to consume blood anyway. This is only a reminder to me that yes, there is ignorance of the Jewish Law evident within the writings of the gospels.

He’s about the be arrested, put on trial, and then hung on a cross to die. He knows this. He knows where this is headed.

This time the firstborn will not be spared. This time the lamb is God’s own Son and no substitute will be given (as with Abraham and Isaac, or in Egypt). The cup will not be taken away from Him."

(cont…)

According to the Christian mysticism though, he was spared if he was brought back to life. It is to contradictive and not even based on logic to believe all of this, of what you say. There is nothing to be learned in what it is you are saying here except that you believe love is based on catering to the selfish desires of others rather than on actual knowledge. Jesus did not die for anyone else… he died because he was an influential Jewish man.

 

[simplynoone]

For Jesus, his coming death is about the new exodus. Betrayed by a friend, a victim of injustice and cruelty at the hands of religion in collusion with empire, God’s Son chooses the path of a lamb.

In the first exodus, the lamb’s blood was placed on the door posts of the house for the salvation of the Israelites who lived there. In the new exodus, Jesus’ blood is about something bigger.

Paul describes Jesus as “the firstborn,” but not the firstborn of a single household. Not the representative of a people suffering in Egypt. Paul describes Jesus as “the firstborn over all creation.” The blood of this lamb is about something far bigger. Jesus is the representative of the entire human family. **His blood covers the entire created order. **Jesus is saving everyone and everything. Jesus is leading all of creation out of the Egypt of violence, sin and death. All that was lost at the garden, in exile east of Eden, is being redeemed in the act of the firstborn son.

(cont…)

First of all, Jesus did not point to another after him as one to give the understanding and confirmation of his teachings. He pointed to the Hebrew Scriptures. Thus, Paul is exempt and the Laws and the Testimonies are where it is we can find the teachings that ARE actually his (Jesus’) confirmed. Jesus even warned that there would be those who would lie about him. That we were given a clue as to find out who, well… one has to seek the Truth where it was confirmed. In the Tanakh… one man cannot be sacrificed to cover the sins of another. Sin is not something that exists on its own… it must be carried out… thus, there is nothing to cover, but rather only understanding and wisdom can overcome sin in our own life. Ezekiel 18:20-28 <---- this WAS confirmed by Jesus (Matthew 5:17-19) You do not think Jesus found out the secret to overcoming temptation just on a whim, do you? That does not at all testify to Life… rather, he found out how to overcome through experience and then consideration.

 

[swplan76]

I would rather be thankful for what Life I have been given and rather seek out something more beneficial to not only myself, but also to those who come after me while have this Life I have been given; that being Wisdom and Understanding. To have a beginning and to have an end is, to the one seeking Wisdom, a good thing. To those who want eternal Life for their own self, the question would be why? Your answer might reveal to you why eternal life asked for would never be granted and why those who ask for wisdom for its own sake will find eternal Lifea (still, they themselves will have a beginning and an end… and the wise person sees the wisdom in the way our Creator established his creation).

These are good challenges!

I read ‘The Great Divorce’ by C.S. Lewis a few months ago. It deals with the same sort of challenge you offer here. There are all kinds of things people deceive themselves with in life surrounding the afterlife. There are a lot of Christians who are classified as nominal. They identify as Christian, but its mostly for the sake of culture, or family, or putting questions about eternity and divinity to rest. They don’t want to find life in their relationship with God.

 

[simplynoone]

For Jesus, his coming death is about the new exodus. Betrayed by a friend, a victim of injustice and cruelty at the hands of religion in collusion with empire, God’s Son chooses the path of a lamb.

In the first exodus, the lamb’s blood was placed on the door posts of the house for the salvation of the Israelites who lived there. In the new exodus, Jesus’ blood is about something bigger.

Paul describes Jesus as “the firstborn,” but not the firstborn of a single household. Not the representative of a people suffering in Egypt. Paul describes Jesus as “the firstborn over all creation.” The blood of this lamb is about something far bigger. Jesus is the representative of the entire human family. **His blood covers the entire created order. **Jesus is saving everyone and everything. Jesus is leading all of creation out of the Egypt of violence, sin and death. All that was lost at the garden, in exile east of Eden, is being redeemed in the act of the firstborn son.

(cont…)

How is it that Paul has the right to declare Jesus the firstborn son of God when it was already declared in Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1?

Here is what the only way I can accept this. Not that Jesus was a man, but a concept of salvation and not for just anyone, but to those spoken of in Isaiah… and truly this is to be a Light to the Gentiles.

The Laws are not just pointless words given to pointlessly set a People apart for the pointless purpose to make them FEEL special.

The Laws are about Justice, Righteous Judgments, and a People were set apart to be an example for the world. I can’t help that you don’t all see this now and truly, I can’t say that I don’t see why you don’t. There is far too much manipulation and lies going forth from the mouths of those who would twist the Truth for their purpose (NOT THE PEOPLE, ISRAEL, mind you)… but I do know this… that the People love God and their Laws is not without purpose. To worship one man and disregard the People in whom the Law was given is to defeat the point of why the Law was given to them. I am at the conclusion that this is the idea. Confuse the people and keep them ALL hoping for something that will never happen… that is the return of one man to rescue the world and hope dies as people grow more and more lazy with their heads in the sand.

shrugs It isn’t as though we are not capable of setting things straight… just everyone is out for their own interest. That death is natural is not the curse… the curse is that everyone thinks they can just wait and naturally, they will always be. It is no wonder so many in kids growing up tdoay have no sense of reality…

HOPE DEFERRED <---- the lesson just won’t be learned will it?.. Proverbs 13:
11Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase.
12Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.
14The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
16Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.
18Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.

Anyone safe yet? No… just your heads are all in the sand. Go back to Genesis 3 and read how the Judgments of God were good. That Adam was forced to work for the knowledge he had gained through eating the fruit is FOR HIS SAKE as is stated.

By the way, Jesus did not come to bring peace according to his own words. If his words are true and given his aversion to Gentiles, I don’t know why you would hope for his return… ESPECIALLY considering all the violence done to his own people using his name. That so many ignored all the others who died and lifted him up as their god for their own vanities (generically speaking… please know this) is not to the benefit of the Church… I do have to admit wondering why the Catholic church seems so adament here lately to “befriend” the Jewish People… I never trust such a big institution which acts suddenly friendly without truly changing their tune toward Truth.

I believe that Jesus is a conceptual metaphor of what it is already in the hand of the Jewish as a People… and all they have to do is carry it out. Moses knew they would one day understand; Deut 30:14. Given the Church has been hoarding the stolen goods, I wonder if they have realized that God, who works within the Laws He established, had a secret weapon… TIME (it is the one Law that we are bound to from the time of our birth to the time of our death and it is only God who is not… thus it can be the reward for those who remain FAITHFUL and the downfall of those who took the goods and ran). Wisdom and Understanding always comes to those who have been observing instruction… over time… though they might not see it in the beginning… it’ll come, no? That’s something no amount of blood can buy… Wisdom is only bought with Time.

 

[simplynoone]

Dear s., a son who is submitted to his father will consider him higher than him. It is like when Jesus says to Peter: “Go behind me, satan!” The one who leads go in front, and the disciples are those who follow the teacher who leads. “Satan” here isn’t the devil, for the meaning of Satan, a priest taught us, is “obstacle”, and Jesus tells him that what Peter said was putting an obstacle to His mission with the words he uttered.And so he urged Peter to go behind Him, to be a faithful disciple.

Right, the concept of Satan or Devil as a separate entity other than the inclination of man to question his own motives is nothing more than man trying to disassociate himself from personal responsibility. Clearly Satan is our desires meant to draw out questioning why, how, what, etc… however, I am not of the mind to make a judgment call regarding the discussion being claimed here Matthew 16:21-23… at least not yet (if it can be applied, it is not for the reasons that Gentiles are trying to interpret it as).

I have never found man a very good teacher anyway… at least not without my own mind at work. Proverbs 2:1-7 was more beneficial to me personally and as it was being taught from the “mouth” of God… God brought along a mouth to confirm it as Truth to me… the mouth of confirmation was in accordance with Psalm 78:5, in fact and so… for now, I am going to not make any conclusions that this passage is spoken in Truth… thus far, the Jewish I have discussed with have been very kind and accepting toward me and not at all as spoken of in this passage (no matter what their status… and I have conversed with those considered authority in Judaism).

I am just VERY careful in judgments that are based on heresay no matter WHERE it is I see them written. Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, along with my own experience all testify to using wisdom in making such judgments. That it was the Scribes who wrote such Gorgeous Truths that are found in the Tanakh and that elders of the Jewish People speak with such profound wisdom and passion that I find myself so moved…well, do you get my point? I don’t believe words just because I see them written in some book labeled holy… I believe them only when I have reason for doing such… and I have no reason to believe what is said here…thus far, it seems it is gossip with intent, in my humble opinion. shrugs