Resurrection? Why?

[simplynoone]

As for the Holy Trinity being One God and not 3 gods, have you never noticed that Jesus, in Mt 28, 19… asked His Apostles to make disciples in all nations and to baptize them in the NAME of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? “The Name”, not “the names”?

Have you ever noticed that you will believe anything written without any reason for doing such?

One Creator… One God… and incorporeal at that. There is none other. What Isaiah says of God testifies more to my mind that thinks logically than say, mythologies of man.

I do not believe in a God because it is written down in a book. I believe in God because I am one of His Created… I know this for it was made known to me before I even was aware that it would be written. I believe in a God for I have regarded the works of His “hands.” To believe in Jesus, a man, as part of God-head is something that has to be bought from the words of man. I can not do that else I am denying what I know I have been given… the ability to reason and make rational choices regarding Truth based on reality and not on what might cater to my desires.

However, I regard that you may have had Jesus appear to you as he appeared to Paul and some of today’s evangelical pastors. Has he? Hope deferred… truly, it does make the heart sick.

 

[simplynoone]

Hello again and again great discussion.

Thank you Simplenoone for your reply, as a Gentile I found it interesting.

Although no replies were directed to me from the Christians there has been reasons given none-the-less. But I still ask “why”? Let me explain.

If 1/3 of the trinity sacrificed itself for the forgiveness of sins, what was wrong with the method of reconciliation pre- N.T.

If it was to conquer death, is Jesus not God therefore the creator of life, death,and the whole cosmos. Conquering death seems to be a small issue for the One who created it.

To fullfil the law as per a new covenant written in Jeremiah. I have read the text and it clearly states it is for Judah and Israel only. It leaves me,a Gentile, out.

I have no desire to become a Jew. But in my search for an understanding of God I seek logic in my quest.

Could someone help me in my search?

Thank you for your time and patients.

**You are quite welcome. Thank you for such kind words as you have offered to me. There are many who have no desire to become Jewish and this is part of Life… nothing wrong here.

The Gentiles are only under the common sense of the Noahide Law (only SEVEN commands… and nothing burdensome at all). They are free to live life without burden. That Christianity puts false burdens on mankind to accept something is not even the fault of most of those posting on this forum… it is just the deceptive work of those who would keep people suppressed for their own purposes.

The Jewish are those who are called and the burden they bear really is not a burden as is thought of in the minds of most. It is there for purpose and I would never think to urge anyone to carry that burden unless they did not consider it a burden… though it is. Unless you understand that… just be part of the creation as you are meant to be… a righteous Gentile. If you apply the 7 commands of the common sense Noahide Law, there is no reason to turn to the disgusting and barbaric thought of the human sacrifice of one man. Such a sacrifice was never condoned by the writings in the Tanakh.

Perhaps reading Zechariah would do good to understand what is meant by the 1/3 reference. Take a look here:

Zechariah 13 (all of it, but particularly the first and the last verse… it explains who it is whose sins were being dealt with and in the last verse, you will see that it is not only one person and it is a People that is referring to Isaiah 53:11… knowledge is the key… after all we have the testimony given in Hosea 4:6 of why it is God’s People perish):

1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The Tanakh is for a People meant to be a Light to the Gentiles regarding Life… not for the conversion of the world for a purpose as meaningless as death (which is the idea of Christianity… to live for death in which not one man alive today has any knowledge of… and even Ecclesiastes testifies that there is not knowledge when a man goes to his grave. THIS IS LIFE!! Live it not under the burden and oppression that is for the benefit of others. There are too many good people throwing their lives away on the lies… all across this globe. too many that are giving way to false morality at the expense of the lives of those caught in the middle. Time to grow up and realize we are all given what we need to live Life as it has been given… Job 40:1,14… this is not a game to see who can gain the most converts… this is LIFE! )**

 

[simplynoone]

Oh… and robsully… if there was not the contrast to life, death… than what would be the Beauty in it. Everyone knows that a spoiled child does not appreciate the riches that is before them, right? Thus, we are not spoiled, but able to appreciate what we have WHILE WE HAVE IT. It should make it meaningful and give us reason to be thankful… but the “spoiled child” syndrome is too much to resist for a lot I guess. Let us not worry about death, but give more thought to what we have been given and what good it is we can pass on to those who are coming after… as of now, I am frightened for our young ones for we leave them the product of the delusions bought by us and those who came before us. They are the ones who will truly go through hell if we don’t grow up and get a grip to the revelations such as Deut 30:14… God created this and said it was good… then, he left it to us… and what is it we are leaving the next generations? :bighanky:

 

[simplynoone]

These are good challenges!

I read ‘The Great Divorce’ by C.S. Lewis a few months ago. It deals with the same sort of challenge you offer here. There are all kinds of things people deceive themselves with in life surrounding the afterlife. There are a lot of Christians who are classified as nominal. They identify as Christian, but its mostly for the sake of culture, or family, or putting questions about eternity and divinity to rest. They don’t want to find life in their relationship with God.

**I am saying there is no such thing as man living eternally… that is something only that God has. Not man. I just want to see people giving ear and eye to the Truth and saying it is good… so that we will be good. If this false idea of eternal life for mankind would cease to exist, maybe these idiot suicide bombers would quit sacrificing all it is they are given… that Christians and Muslims play into this life after death mentality is the disease. If I knew more about Islam, then I would speak to them… I don’t though… can’t at least ONE side realize they have missed that the foundation on which they are claiming to stand is wholly against their fantasies; that it speaks to Life and not to death? This is it… and not only are both of these extreme religions throwing away their own lives, but they are throwing away the lives of the innocent… :tsktsk:

THAT IS the challenge I am laying down. TO be Honest!! to look at the foundation and see what it is there and not what it is you want to believe, which is what you were told to believe. Genesis 3… “you will not surely die…” … oh, but you will. Do we want to leave this, the creation, behind in even worse condition than we found it (which has gotten progressively worse despite the lies) for those after us? Or do we want to be the ones to grow up and face the Truth without selfishness involved, but for the sake of those who are next in line?**

 

[KyivAndrew]

Also, I am not saying that it is wrong to want to exist eternally, only that it is a selfish desire for it would benefit no one but your own self. To maintain that line of thinking is to deny Truth. We all die and there is not one thing that testifies to us… ANY OF US… that we will exist eternally and almost everything else to testify the opposite. And it is good.

Maimonides who studied the Tanakh and Judaism way better than you or I and is without peer arguably on Judaism’s beliefs. “The present chapter will explain in what manner those that worship God who have obtained a true knowledge concerning God; it will direct them how to come to that worship, which is the highest aim man can attain, and show how God protects them in this world till they are removed to ETERNAL LIFE.” (emphasis mine from his masterpiece A Guide For the Perplexed). Let’s see who to go with on understanding Judaism and eternal life. Perhaps one of the most intelligent men to ever walk the face of the earth Maimonides, or simplynoone. I’ll go with the bright guy.

Funny thing is I promised myself I would not get involved in these nice “colourful” gotcha posts which accomplish little but I am in between posting. Probably won’t check up. Too many other threads.

God Bless!

 

[KyivAndrew]

Psalms Chapter 104 verse 30, with Rashi’s commentary below in brackets telling the reader that “resurrection of the dead” is being written here.
30. You will send forth Your spirit and they will be created, and You will renew the surface of the ground. ל.

(You will send forth Your spirit: with the resurrection of the dead)

I trust you know who Rashi is. God Bless.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Isaiah Chapter 52 verse 11 complete with Rashi’s commentary in brackets:

1. Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch no unclean one; get out of its midst, purify yourselves, you who bear the Lord’s vessels. יא.

(touch no unclean one: They shall be abominable to you to touch them. :
get out of its midst: Out of the midst of the exile, for all these last consolations refer only to the last exile. :
purify yourselves: Heb. הִבָּרוּ, purify yourselves. :
you who bear the Lord’s vessels: You, the priests and the Levites, who carried the vessels of the Holy One, blessed be He, in the desert [from here is proof of the resurrection of the dead]. )

Rashi studied the Bible with a vengeance. Some even claimed he knew it by heart. Note his: “here is proof of the resurrection of the dead”.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Proverbs Chapter 6 verse 22 with Rashi again in brackets:

1. When you walk, it shall lead you; when you lie down, it shall guard you, and when you awaken, it shall speak for you. כב.
   “When you walk: in your lifetime. :
   it shall lead you: Heb. תנחה אותך, like תנהיגך. :
   when you lie down: in the grave. :
   and when you awaken: for the resurrection of the dead, to stand in judgment. :
   it shall speak for you: It shall speak on your behalf.”

Please note Rashi’s interpretation of “and when you awaken” meaning "for the resurrection of the dead, to stand in judgment"

Rashi was a very bright guy indeed and is universally recognized by most religious Jews as a very wise commentator on the Bible’s verses.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Psalms Chapter 78 verse 38 with Rashi’s commentary on the resurrection in brackets:

1. But He is merciful, He expiates iniquity and does not destroy; many times He takes back His wrath and does not arouse all His anger. לח.
   But He is merciful: to them and constantly expiates their iniquity, and He did not destroy them. :

(many times: Many times He withdraws His wrath from them, and even if He punishes them, He does not arouse all His anger but little by little, because He remembers that they are flesh and that the evil inclination is hidden in their heart. That is a spirit that goes away when they die, and that spirit does not return to them in the world to come. When they are resurrected, the evil inclination will have no control over them.“A spirit that goes away and does not return” cannot be explained to mean their spirit of life, because if you say so, you have denied the resurrection of the dead. In this manner, it is explained in Aggadath Tehillim (Mid Ps. 78:8).)

I guess Rashi, after all those years of studying the Tanakh must have been wrong just like Maimonides in preaching belief in the resurrection and eternal life?

 

[KyivAndrew]

Genesis, Chapter 2, verse 7 with Rashi’s commentary in brackets:

1. And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.

(formed: וַיִּיצֶר, with two “yuds,” hints at] two creations, a creation for this world and a creation for the [time of the] resurrection of the dead, but in connection with the animals, which do not stand in judgment, two“yuds” are not written in [the word וַיִּצֶר describing their creation. — [from Tan. Tazria 1]

(emphasis mine)

God Bless!

 

[simplynoone]

Maimonides who studied the Tanakh and Judaism way better than you or I and is without peer arguably on Judaism’s beliefs. “The present chapter will explain in what manner those that worship God who have obtained a true knowledge concerning God; it will direct them how to come to that worship, which is the highest aim man can attain, and show how God protects them in this world till they are removed to ETERNAL LIFE.” (emphasis mine from his masterpiece A Guide For the Perplexed). Let’s see who to go with on understanding Judaism and eternal life. Perhaps one of the most intelligent men to ever walk the face of the earth Maimonides, or simplynoone. I’ll go with the bright guy.

Funny thing is I promised myself I would not get involved in these nice “colourful” gotcha posts which accomplish little but I am in between posting. Probably won’t check up. Too many other threads.

God Bless!

***Given 1) that he was Jewish and 2) that he was enlightened, as well as 3) he was speaking out of the same Scriptures as I am, and last of all but not least 4) the title of the writing… I am going to have to say that he when he spoke of “being removed to eternal life” he was speaking according to Ecclesiastes where it is said over and over that man returns to dust and the spirit, the breath of life, returns to God from whom it was given. Do you have any recollection of a life before you were born? I did not think so… thus, you can go with the bright guy… but the bright guy went according to the same teachings while being enlightened by the same God that I am. Proverbs 2:1-7… perhaps you should seek more of God’s understanding than that of man’s… and then when an enlightened one comes along your path, you will actually understand what it is he meant. ***

 

[KyivAndrew]

***Given 1) that he was Jewish and 2) that he was enlightened, as well as 3) he was speaking out of the same Scriptures as I am, and last of all but not least 4) the title of the writing… I am going to have to say that he when he spoke of “being removed to eternal life” he was speaking according to Ecclesiastes where it is said over and over that man returns to dust and the spirit, the breath of life, returns to God from whom it was given. Do you have any recollection of a life before you were born? I did not think so… thus, you can go with the bright guy… but the bright guy went according to the same teachings while being enlightened by the same God that I am. Proverbs 2:1-7… perhaps you should seek more of God’s understanding than that of man’s… and then when an enlightened one comes along your path, you will actually understand what it is he meant. ***

No, I am pretty sure that Maimonides’ and Rashi’s understandings of the resurrection and eternal life were exactly that, and not your understandings of resurrection. They knew those verses in Ecclesiastes for sure, but Maimonides made belief in the resurrection one of the core beliefs of Judaism in his 13 Principles, and by resurrection neither he nor Rashi, nor Nahmanides, nor the Besht for that matter, meant that death means returning to dust with no resurrection of self. In any event, I’ll have to check up on this tomorrow. My apologies. It’s late where I am.

May God Bless You! See you tomorrow.

 

[swplan76]

First of all, Jesus did not point to another after him as one to give the understanding and confirmation of his teachings. He pointed to the Hebrew Scriptures. Thus, Paul is exempt and the Laws and the Testimonies are where it is we can find the teachings that ARE actually his (Jesus’) confirmed. Jesus even warned that there would be those who would lie about him. That we were given a clue as to find out who, well… one has to seek the Truth where it was confirmed. In the Tanakh… one man cannot be sacrificed to cover the sins of another. Sin is not something that exists on its own… it must be carried out… thus, there is nothing to cover, but rather only understanding and wisdom can overcome sin in our own life. Ezekiel 18:20-28 <---- this WAS confirmed by Jesus (Matthew 5:17-19) You do not think Jesus found out the secret to overcoming temptation just on a whim, do you? That does not at all testify to Life… rather, he found out how to overcome through experience and then consideration.

Jesus did point to the Holy Spirit in John 14-16 as one to come.

If one believes what Jesus said to be accurate, then it can be believed that the writers of the rest of the New Testament were being taught, reminded and otherwise led by the Holy Spirit. Paul even writes in one or two places that some advice he is giving is not from the Spirit, but that it is just from Paul. My experience of the Holy Spirit has shown me that God speaks through the letters of the New Testament.

Similarly, I would say that the Old Testament was also directed by the Holy Spirit. If I believe those texts, especially the part in John chapter 1 that says that all things were created through the Word and that the Word is Jesus, then I would not imagine that Jesus “*found *out the secret to overcoming temptation,” rather that he already knew how to overcome temptation.

To say Jesus only pointed to the Hebrew Scriptures is fairly reductionistic. God cannot be put into a box and labeled. Legalistic, reductionist, rule loving religious types are not the sort of people who are really interested in God in the first place. They like religion because religion can provide a myriad of rules and regulation by which they can control their lives and control how they relate to God… Many of them even attempt to control how God responds to them and they treat their religious behavior as a bargaining chip, or tool for manipulating their way into God’s good books. Jesus didn’t only point to the Hebrew scriptures. Jesus pointed to the past. Jesus point at the present. Jesus pointed at the future. Jesus pointed at me and you. The message of Jesus and the way it was and is conveyed blew the world right open.

As we attempt to relate to God, I’ve found that its much healthier to develop the sort of heart that is open to thinking about new ideas, even ideas that seem capable of destroying what we already believe. Romans 8 says, “If God is for us, who can be against us?” What have we to fear? Why should I be afraid of ideas? Its sad that so many people are afraid of losing control of what they believe. God’s ideas are supernatural - they are beyond our nature, so they will be frightening at times, especially before we are comfortable with Him. I am God’s child - He loves me, and through the Holy Spirit (that lives in me), He is guiding me by His hand. So why would I be afraid of losing my way?
Psalm 139 says this:

1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.
5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

I think the basic problem with our communications and similar confusion you will likely find in Christian forums is that we are not starting from the same assumptions about who Jesus is, how God desires to interact with us, what scripture is and what the basic response should be to the life, teachings, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Have an excellent day!
SW

 

[swplan76]

**I am saying there is no such thing as man living eternally… that is something only that God has. Not man. I just want to see people giving ear and eye to the Truth and saying it is good… so that we will be good. If this false idea of eternal life for mankind would cease to exist, maybe these idiot suicide bombers would quit sacrificing all it is they are given… that Christians and Muslims play into this life after death mentality is the disease. If I knew more about Islam, then I would speak to them… I don’t though… can’t at least ONE side realize they have missed that the foundation on which they are claiming to stand is wholly against their fantasies; that it speaks to Life and not to death? This is it… and not only are both of these extreme religions throwing away their own lives, but they are throwing away the lives of the innocent… :tsktsk:

THAT IS the challenge I am laying down. TO be Honest!! to look at the foundation and see what it is there and not what it is you want to believe, which is what you were told to believe. Genesis 3… “you will not surely die…” … oh, but you will. Do we want to leave this, the creation, behind in even worse condition than we found it (which has gotten progressively worse despite the lies) for those after us? Or do we want to be the ones to grow up and face the Truth without selfishness involved, but for the sake of those who are next in line?**

I’m all for treating the planet well and honoring it as God’s gift to us - I think it would be great if we could turn things around… of course it all starts with individuals…

I disagree that life after death/heaven vs. hell is not a Jewish idea. I disagree that it is the cause of all the war. Christians are not causing war. America is not a Christian country. There are many Christians in America and many people who claim to be Christians, but clearly are not, but America is not a Christian country.

Islam.
Islam is a religion that was started by a man who claimed to encounter an angel in a cave and that the angel was giving him revelations. Many people didn’t like Muhammad and his claims. They wanted to kill him, but he had a powerful uncle that protected him. Over time, as people began to convert to Islam, Muhammad’s wife and uncle died as a result of being shunned by the rest of society. Muhammad’s life was torn from him. He still had some followers, but they were all wasting away in the dessert. He was invited to come to Medina to help the people there work out some of their social problems, so he and the remnant of his followers went there. In no time Muhammad reorganized and solved their social problems and Medina found success like it had never had before. People were impressed with Muhammad because of this, so it there was little conflict with him over Islam, but over time, things changed. Some people had attacked Medina and Muhammad found that a group of 600-900 Jews were found to be treacherous, so they were killed. This was common practice at the time, so Muhammad was not behaving unlike the other tribal people in the area. He dug ditches and brought out groups of men at a time and had their heads cut off - it was basically ethnic cleansing. I am told by many Muslims that it was not ethnic cleansing because the people were not killed because of their ethnicity, but because they were disloyal to the agreement they signed to protect Medina. It has been claimed that many loyal Jews remained in Medina after this event (I find this hard to imagine). All my friends and family are being slaughter and made into orphans and slaves and I will just pretend that this doesn’t bother me. Once their bodies are dumped into mass-graves outside the city, I will just continue on living along side the people who killed them. I would imagine that its possible that not all the Jews were killed, but with in a short period of time, I would imagine that they would pack it in and get out - I couldn’t live in a place with that sort of personal history.

Islam emerged, enshrouded with violence and blood spill.

The Qur’an reports that it is a divine book that existed before time. It was ‘revealed’ to Muhammad as a divine revelation - it claims to have no error. This is unlike the books of Judaism and Christianity. The Hadiths are reports about Muhammad, what he said and what he did. Reading the Qur’an and the Hadiths provides a good idea of what Islam is really about. It honestly presents who Muhammad was and what Islam is all about. Of course there could have been some tampering (depending on your thoughts around Islam). I don’t think that the Qur’an or the Hadiths present Muhammad as a moral or honorable person. At times they say that Muhammad is the role model for all humanity, but then they tell us what he did and said, the things he promoted - these things are terrible. It doesn’t take much, in my perspective, to see through the claims at Muhammad’s purity.

The Qur’an and the Hadiths encourage murder, ambush, deception, polygamy, pedophilia (Muhammad married and had sex with a 9 year old), rape (Muhammad encouraged Muslims to have sex with their slave girls if they were so inclined), slavery…

Heaven, in Islam, is a place where Muslim men will have sex with houris (beautiful virgin women (not ugly ones :sad_bye: ) and they will feast and drink wine. So, its a huge gluttonous orgy. These are all things that Islam claims are not appropriate while alive on earth, but in heaven, its ideal.

I must go, but that is an introduction to Islam in a nutshell…

Later!
SW

 

[swplan76]

cont…
Islam & heaven

I don’t think, from what the Qur’an says, that women go to heaven, unless they are houris.

I think it would be strange for Muslim women to stand by and watch as their husbands & sons were eternally in the midst of a gluttonous orgy. … I have a hard time imagining that it would be paradise for them.

I guess the houris don’t have any desire, but to be used for the sexual gratification of the faithful. I have a hard time imagining that houris would want to be randomly used by any and every Muslim for sex and then discarded. If they were beings with their own thoughts and feelings, but were trapped in an eternity of random sexual encounters, I have a hard time imagining that it would be paradise for them either.

A muslim on a different forum section on here told me that women will have male houris. The women will be eternally gratifying their sexual desires with random beautiful virgin males… I don’t imagine that most Muslim men would be too excited about that idea. Their daughters and wives off randomly fornicating with male houris.

On earth, in some Muslim countries, people are killed for inappropriate sexual activity, but in their idea of Heaven, it is ideal.

I’m melting… too hot here.

Later

 

[simplynoone]

Psalms Chapter 104 verse 30, with Rashi’s commentary below in brackets telling the reader that “resurrection of the dead” is being written here.
30. You will send forth Your spirit and they will be created, and You will renew the surface of the ground. ל.

(You will send forth Your spirit: with the resurrection of the dead)

I trust you know who Rashi is. God Bless.

Regardless of who said it, I would have to question such a one who would interpret this passage to mean resurrection as it gives no indication of being such; even further, if you read on (particularly vs 33) you will see it is implying no such thing.

Someone else has brought up this verse to me and tried to use the prior verse as proof of resurrection… I will answer the same way… put into context, it is only speaking to life. A volcano’s lava will destroy all life that it touches, but what comes after the lava and time have passed is life renewed. It is not the SAME life that was once there… it is NEW life that springs forth. This is, though, speaking physically and in the present tense, and thus, the only logical conclusion is that it is speaking of nature… death occurs, but life from a fresh perspective (errr… babies) renews the earth.

One thing that is never wise for ANYONE…Jew or not, is to interpret the Scripture in regards to something that does not testify to life as it was given to us because in THAT method, we fail at regarding the works of God’s “hands.” Psalm 28:4-5

 

[simplynoone]

Isaiah Chapter 52 verse 11 complete with Rashi’s commentary in brackets:

1. Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch no unclean one; get out of its midst, purify yourselves, you who bear the Lord’s vessels. יא.

(touch no unclean one: They shall be abominable to you to touch them. :
get out of its midst: Out of the midst of the exile, for all these last consolations refer only to the last exile. :
purify yourselves: Heb. הִבָּרוּ, purify yourselves. :
you who bear the Lord’s vessels: You, the priests and the Levites, who carried the vessels of the Holy One, blessed be He, in the desert [from here is proof of the resurrection of the dead]. )

Rashi studied the Bible with a vengeance. Some even claimed he knew it by heart. Note his: “here is proof of the resurrection of the dead”.

I am open to hearing how YOU see this as proof. As for the commentaries, I am having a hard time believing that this is put into context. shrugs Even so… It would be preferable to me to hear why you might agree if such a thing were said in the way you are claiming because I gotta be honest… I am not agreeing thus far; and this is NOTHING of proof to speak to the Christianity version of resurrection… not at all… not even close… so far off from being considered proof that I am even having a hard time figuring out how it is being claimed as such (well… don’t take me to be so closed minded as I might sound… just explain to me how it is you see it as thus, please).

 

[KyivAndrew]

I am open to hearing how YOU see this as proof. As for the commentaries, I am having a hard time believing that this is put into context. shrugs Even so… It would be preferable to me to hear why you might agree if such a thing were said in the way you are claiming because I gotta be honest… I am not agreeing thus far; and this is NOTHING of proof to speak to the Christianity version of resurrection… not at all… not even close… so far off from being considered proof that I am even having a hard time figuring out how it is being claimed as such (well… don’t take me to be so closed minded as I might sound… just explain to me how it is you see it as thus, please).

I hear you…I hear you…simply…it’s just my barbecue wasn’t treating the chicken kebobs as well as the beef ones and I’m still gasping from the smoke.

I know that you will not “agree” with me as you imply above…I am not going to be able to convince you on a computer forum and neither you me… I understand…+ I found myself involved in another thread along similar lines and I was afraid of posting twice on similar subject matter but here goes. I will not provide a Christian argument for resurrection which will carry no weight with you but a Jewish one for resurrection to which you can respond if you wish. It is from Chabad, to which branch of Judaism some of my friends joined…

The late Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, (the Rebbe to his followers and founder of Chabad Lubavitch which proselytizes across the Jewish world to bring religion to “secular” Jews, and which leader commanded quite the presence in Judaism with such persons as Ariel Sharon making “pilgrimages” to visit him) probably studied the Holy Scriptures and Talmud as much if not more than you. Why do his religiously Jewish followers then proclaim: “The belief in a bodily resurrection appears, at first sight, to be incredible to the contemporary mind. But when approached from the God’s-eye view, why is rebirth more miraculous than birth?”

And Chabad proclaim on the veracity of resurrection: “Judaism has always stressed that the body, as the soul, is a gift of God–indeed, that it belongs to God. Ha’neshamah lach ve’haguf pa’alach, the Jew declared, “The soul is yours, and the body is your handiwork.” To care for the body is a religious command of the Bible. The practice of asceticism for religious purposes was tolerated, but the ascetic had to bring a sacrifice of atonement for his action. Resurrection affirms that the body is of value because it came from God, and it will be revived by God. Resurrection affirms that man’s empirical existence is valuable in God’s eyes. His activities in this world are significant in the scheme of eternity. His strivings are not to be deprecated as vain and useless, but are to be brought to fulfillment at the end of days.”

Here is the link to the full article: chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/281644/jewish/The-Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htm

Why is your understanding of no resurrection superior to Chabad’s Jewish belief IN the resurrection? Are they simply deluded and their Judaism inferior to yours? I asked this on another thread, but since you are raising the same objections, I now ask you.

May God Bless you Abundantly!

 

[simplynoone]

Proverbs Chapter 6 verse 22 with Rashi again in brackets:

1. When you walk, it shall lead you; when you lie down, it shall guard you, and when you awaken, it shall speak for you. כב.
   “When you walk: in your lifetime. :
   it shall lead you: Heb. תנחה אותך, like תנהיגך. :
   when you lie down: in the grave. :
   and when you awaken: for the resurrection of the dead, to stand in judgment. :
   it shall speak for you: It shall speak on your behalf.”

Please note Rashi’s interpretation of “and when you awaken” meaning "for the resurrection of the dead, to stand in judgment"

Rashi was a very bright guy indeed and is universally recognized by most religious Jews as a very wise commentator on the Bible’s verses.

ALRIGHT ALRIGHT… now I KNOW something is amiss… have you at all read the context? I am REALLY having a hard time believing that any enlightened Jewish person would translate this as physical resurrection of the dead. I actually had to go read this commentary for my own self and sure enough… read the context; I can see how it is he was not meaning resurrection as in the Christian view…

Enlightenment. I know for my own self, I did not understand most of the commandments given, but I faced my fear to read them, study them, and know them. In doing that, I found the truth of Psalm 19 as it applies to Life being lived NOW (enlightened to Truth) rather than just mere existence (ignorance to the Jewish is comparable to death), which is what most settle for in the blind faith of something to which there is not anything in the works of God’s “hands” (Psalm 28:4-5) testifying to it being truth (that being the physical resurrection of the dead).

Look at the verses of Proverbs 6 that have to do with sleep and life (4,5, 9-12, 23… and the commentaries)… it is speaking of how to walk in the awareness of Life always by keeping the commandments before you.

Still, I will admit to being a bit less complicated here and seeing it for what it says. There are many places I see as conceptual metaphors because there is reason for doing such… this is not one of those places… though, certainly profound truths can be extracted for those enlightened… the only problem is when it falls into the hands of those not enlightened, I suppose (generically speaking… most likely I think you read it with preconceived notions… which, I understand… truth is a hard pill to swallow at first when it is so foreign to what we have been told for so long). There is far too much that shows physical resurrection of the dead is NOT a way of God for Life. Have any proof that it has happened yet? Psalm 28:4,5 … and that is not even the direct approach, but really… just use what is inherent to you to interpret words of men that are NOT inherent to your nature to decipher what is meant… oh, the inherent thing you were given was a mind to use in order to make sure it is not just words of men you are believing… they may be correct but not on a level you are hoping for, ya know?

 

[KyivAndrew]

There is far too much that shows physical resurrection of the dead is NOT a way of God for this Life.

O.K. simply that’s why I just posted a link to a Jewish site that proclaims Belief in the Resurrection, which MANY Jews believe, as above. Your argument may well be with them then, not just me. Please see above. In any event, I cannot see how arguing will bring us any closer to understanding. Life on this earth, as you yourself say, is finite, and time as well for each of us. God Bless!