Resurrection? Why?

[simplynoone]

Well, if it does not exist, you have heard of Pascal’s wager, have you not?

Oh geez! do I ever! I have had this bit of mentality used on me more than a few times. Drove me nuts… I do not understand how one can accept such a line of thinking. Either you know or you do not. I had to go with the honesty of my heart… that I would not live my life based on what I do not know. I am not good because I believe in God and my goodness of heart is not good if it based on hoping to have eternal life. I am who I am regardless of my beliefs and I will not be something else to cater TO my beliefs or the possibility that something could be true.

And no, my belief in Jesus Christ and the Church is actually not based solely or mostly on feelings. I have read earnestly all my life on it, including looking at other religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, to see if they had the truth to them on religion and the meaning of life. I always came back to Catholicism on logical grounds.

Hey, I wonder if you have ever noticed the positive light given to the East wind in the Tanakh. About the only thing negative said about it is not to worship the Eastern Sun. That means the knowledge of the eastern philosophies IS beneficial to enlightening the eyes, but the knowledge should not be worshiped. I loved this when I noticed it because I, too, spent time emmersed in the philosophical studies of the eastern religions. There is much to apply in helping to understand the Truths of the Tanakh and life in general.

I’m open-minded but have found myself pretty well-based.

I am not going to necessarily disagree with the first part as far as you are concerned. You do seem willing to be cordial when it comes to another view (even where I am concerned). As for the latter part, I guess this is where I personally would disagree … only because the base (the Tanakh) does not support the beliefs of the Catholics. But, time always gives way to Wisdom for those truly seeking it and thus, if you are… then you will find it. This I have no doubt of.

I was first introduced to Judaism

I cut off with this statement only because I am not in the position to discuss much of what you listed. This however does interest me… that the Catholics are becoming more aware of Judaism. The only issue I take with it is this: the knowledge being gained is still being manipulated to support something that is not in the foundation, the Tanakh.

I like that the religion is being taught, I just don’t like that it is being taught in a way that gives no real understanding… for if it gave real understanding, accepting a man as though he were God would be a no-no. Accepting the birth from a literal virgin would be a no-no. As well as many other misunderstandings that are still being accepted by the Catholic Church and its followers.

Still… I am quite intrigued with this tide toward Judaism… admittedly though, I am a bit suspicious of it given the lack of change toward the Truth.

 

[simplynoone]

Hello again.

Thank you Simplenoone for your comments and insight. I see Judaism not only as a religion but as a family, one which I’m not part of but still welcome to sit at the table.

What a gorgeous thing to say. It is truth… still, my “pie in the sky” ideal would be for mankind as a whole (in the right way) to see all of us as part of the family called the creation of God. This does mean though, to accept the beauty of the differences (culture, traditions, ways of life, etc). I do not like the ideals that seek oneness in the way of having all conform to one mentality… that would be boring. I just would like to see the Peoples being able to maintain their uniqueness and beliefs and not trying to make all others conform to their personal ideals (much like having the immediate families within the larger families). I think this mostly can be accomplished through understanding Genesis 9… the covenant with mankind.

Thus why my issues have to do with Christianity (and Islam on the side… though again, I have not the insight into it as I do with Christianity) and the American mindset that has developed based on the ideals of Christianity. I am content to leave Christianity alone when they take the NT off of the Tanakh which is its own unique way of thinking… and quit seeking world domination.

Christians I would like to reconcile the Christian Resurrection story. I’m unable to " wrap my head around" the logic. My questions and request pending.

During a religous studies course it was put to us that everlasting life had more to do with what we leave behind before we die than where we are going after death.

I do not require biblical quotes, just basic logical explanation.

Thank you for your time and patience

I second this request to see the idea of everlasting life for the individual supported through logic rather than words of man. Great wording of the challenge!

 

[ryanoneil]

Hello ryanoneil. You know what? I have read this book many times over for I find very profound Truths in it. I quoted the last one because it has always been one of my favorite parts in the Book of Wisdom.

If this is to be applied to the Tanakh, though, then clearly it is speaking of Israel. I color coded the corresponding references for the convenience of all those reading.

Jeremiah 33:

24Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families (Jer 31:31) which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
25Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

In other words, if the natural Laws give way to utter destruction, then only will the covenant given in Jeremiah 31 with the two families choses be broken.

Jeremiah 30:
10Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Deuteronomy also speaks of this.

Daniel 12:
1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Now, please, use some rational thinking (as I can see you do possess this wonderful ability) that this, Daniel 12, is speaking of Nations (not individuals) and the one that will be raised to everlasting life is Israel. Egypt is among the nations given to shame and everlasting contempt (to name only one). The Book of Life is the Tanakh, ya know.

Obviously God established Israel as His “first-born son” through whom all the peoples of the world would be blessed. They are not His “only son” though. All the covenants are aspects of a single covenant. The covenant begins with the blessing of all living beings, especially Adam and Eve who represent the human race. This covenant is renewed in the covenant with Noah. With Abraham the covenant points toward a future in which all nations will be blessed.

Between you and me I will establish my covenant, and I will multiply you exceedingly." When Abram prostrated himself, God continued to speak to him: "My covenant with you is this: you are to become the father of a host of nations. No longer shall you be called Abram; your name shall be Abraham, for I am making you the father of a host of nations. I will render you exceedingly fertile; I will make nations of you; kings shall stem from you. I will maintain my covenant with you and your descendants after you throughout the ages as an everlasting pact, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. (Genesis 17:2-7).

The covenant with Israel at Sinai is made to fulfill God’s “holy word to His servant Abraham,” and God’s covenant with David is made to renew and fulfill the promise to Abraham. The purpose of God’s covenant is to bless the human race, transforming into a single family of God, to make each individual what Adam was intended to be - a son of God the Most High, heir to the kingdom of heaven, a ruler of creation, and a “priest.” Israel as a nation will always be special in the eyes of God, but not to the exclusion of the other nations. Jerusalem, is the mother of all nations in the Davidic Kingdom, and the other nations are “one and all born in her” (Psalm 87:5) In other words the others are made sons and daughters of God in a worldwide family. The New Covenant necessarily includes more than a unified Israel and Judah. The covenant at Sinai established Israel as a nation but David’s Kingdom was an international kingdom.

I’m not denying what you are saying except that you are being narrow in your understanding. God’s Covenant reveals who God is, who we are, the meaning of our individual lives, and the destiny of our lives together as members of the human race. God relates to His people - the whole human race - and to each one of us, individually, by means of covenant.

 

[ryanoneil]

Now, please, use some rational thinking (as I can see you do possess this wonderful ability) that this, Daniel 12, is speaking of Nations (not individuals) and the one that will be raised to everlasting life is Israel. Egypt is among the nations given to shame and everlasting contempt (to name only one). The Book of Life is the Tanakh, ya know.

Hi simplynoone. Sorry I haven’t had time to respond lately.

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some shall live forever, others shall be an everlasting horror and disgrace. (Dan 12:2)

Dan 12 does refer to the individuals mentioned here:

The nation’s wise men shall instruct the many; though for a time they will become victims of the sword, of flames, exile, and plunder. When they fall, few people shall help them, but many shall join them out of treachery. Of the wise men, some shall fall, so that the rest may be tested, refined, and purified, until the end time which is still appointed to come. (Dan 11:33-35)

These individual are included in the “many” of Daniel 12:2. The “many” are all individuals among the nations, wise and the wicked alike.

Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29)

So, we understand these wicked to be the “others” mentioned in Daniel 12:2. Both the wise and the wicked are referred to here:

As the new heavens and the new earth which I will make Shall endure before me, says the LORD, so shall your race and your name endure. From one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, All mankind shall come to worship before me, says the LORD. They shall go out and see the corpses of the men who rebelled against me; Their worm shall not die, nor their fire be extinguished; and they shall be abhorrent to all mankind. (Isa 66:22:24)

This fulfillment in the OT points to the end of time. Read Revelation 20:5-15 and Revelation 21 (Note: from a Catholic perspective the first resurrection happens spiritually when we die and go to heaven or hell. The second resurrection happens physically at the end of time.)

 

[simplynoone]

I’m not denying what you are saying except that you are being narrow in your understanding. God’s Covenant reveals who God is, who we are, the meaning of our individual lives, and the destiny of our lives together as members of the human race. God relates to His people - the whole human race - and to each one of us, individually, by means of covenant.

I am sorry… I had not realized that you replied some time ago. I have been rather busy myself .

I think the covenant not only allows us to know God (as He is infinite in Knowledge and thus, for us to know Him, we must know Him as the Creator that He is)… I think it also reveals to us our ownselves and what it is we were created for. “Fear God and keep His commandments for this is the whole duty of man.” The commands for mankind are inferred in Genesis 9 and I am of the opinion that Christianity has added on extra burdens to mankind. It is no wonder that so many fall in and out of it… mankind’s calling is not the same as the call given to the Jewish.

Yes… each and every person alive is a son and daughter of God by default… they are part of His creation. The Jewish though are a special creation and Israel is the firstborn of this special creation. There certainly are those who are not of the physical seed of Abraham who are called to join to this covenant… and they become sons and daughters of this special creation. Not all are meant to be a part of this special creation and neither should any feel jealous that they would make up a way around the stipulations given for this special creation so that they can claim they are now a part of it.

Those who are not Jewish and choose not to be are not less valuable as far as their life’s worth goes… and Christianity has done much to make others feel they are less valuable for not joining their made up covenant (please… do not be offended at my view… I state it so bluntly/honestly from my perspective so as to get an honest opinion from you and others… if I did not do so, then we would have no point for discussing, right?).

God is Truth… and truth does not need sacrifices to still be Truth, correct? That so many don’t accept a sacrifice of a man that can’t even be proved does not make them worthy of hell… it rather makes them good because they are choosing to use the REAL gift they were given (not a blood sacrifice). The REAL gift they were given that is inherent to mankind is our mind and the ability toward rational thinking. Neither should a person feel guilty for not keeping 613 commands that were not given to them in the first place. The common sense Noahide Law is enough and nothing in there is beyond what we can do… it is such basic common sense that it even takes very little thought to follow… it is what separates us, the human beings from the animals. That is the covenant between God and mankind. Christianity has nothing to do with anything in the Tanakh. It is its own religion that has twisted the Tanakh around for catalytic purposes. The Jewish and their extra commands is the signature on that contract between God and mankind… they are the ones who remind us all that there is ONLY ONE God and as Jesus said in John 4:24… God is a Spirit. Christianity breaks the covenant between God and mankind by elevating a man to the status of God… thus, truly it is the Gentiles who “kill God” in the minds of so many.

See, it is not my view that is narrow. My view, I think anyway, opens up the Truth to all without enslaving people in this Life… the only life we get. The kingdom of God is already in the Land of Israel… and really, isn’t it about time that this Truth is recognized and the two religions trying to dominate the region bow out in the goodness of their hearts rather than waiting for it to be forcefully done (because I believe it will be done forcefully otherwise and support such methods whole-heartedly, in fact). That it took the People, Israel to return to the Land for it (the Land) to become Living again should be enough evidence that what I am saying is true. Just think… all this time over the last 2,000 years that Christians and Muslims occupied the Land and yet the Land rejected them; for it was barren when not occupied by Israel, the Jewish People. Now it is fruitful, abundant in much, and the Holiness is felt physically… this only occurred once that Holy People was back in the Land… because they are the ones in whom the covenant between God and Abraham is realized. Beautiful, no?

Christianity, again, has nothing to do with the covenant between God and mankind and certainly is far from having anything to do with the Holy People, descendents of Abraham, and God.

 

[simplynoone]

Hi simplynoone. Sorry I haven’t had time to respond lately.

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some shall live forever, others shall be an everlasting horror and disgrace. (Dan 12:2)

Dan 12 does refer to the individuals mentioned here:

Daniel 12:2 is speaking of People… in the verse before it, it says “thy People shall be delivered” right before it goes into verse 2. So, I do believe that verse 2 is talking of Peoples of the world… Peoples as Nations.

The nation’s wise men shall instruct the many; though for a time they will become victims of the sword, of flames, exile, and plunder. When they fall, few people shall help them, but many shall join them out of treachery. Of the wise men, some shall fall, so that the rest may be tested, refined, and purified, until the end time which is still appointed to come. (Dan 11:33-35)

These individual are included in the “many” of Daniel 12:2. The “many” are all individuals among the nations, wise and the wicked alike.

This, above, is talking about the Jewish… the same metioned in Isaiah 53:11. And hmm… wonder about “the many shall join them out of treachery…” still… they have help, though it may seem like few to them at the time, the number does seem to be finally growing… that would be the help of those who are not trying to join them out of treachery, but out of gratefulness because it is this People that such Beauty has come into the World. Still, Daniel 12:2, thus far I am convinced is speaking of Peoples aka Nations… Christianity I believe is one of those “Nations”… a people that has joined the Jewish People, so they claim, out of treachery… and it is this People that will be among the ones waking to everlasting shame.

As the new heavens and the new earth which I will make Shall endure before me, says the LORD, so shall your race and your name endure. From one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, All mankind shall come to worship before me, says the LORD. They shall go out and see the corpses of the men who rebelled against me; Their worm shall not die, nor their fire be extinguished; and they shall be abhorrent to all mankind. (Isa 66:22:24)

**It is amazing to me as I look out across other religious forums… it seems more and more are starting to see Who it is the Truth has been resting with all along and who it is that has spread like a disease throughout mankind… the latter is not only isolated to the religion of Christianity, mind you. **

This fulfillment in the OT points to the end of time. Read Revelation 20:5-15 and Revelation 21 (Note: from a Catholic perspective the first resurrection happens spiritually when we die and go to heaven or hell. The second resurrection happens physically at the end of time.)

The fire that is spoken of in the testimonies of the prophets is here… now … on this earth. I just CAN NOT find the logic for the Christian concept of hell… neither can I find it in the Tanakh. It is something made up to deter others away from Truth by means of trying to incite fear in them. This really is a shameful thing to do… so many lives wasted because they were so afraid of death when clearly death is nothing to be afraid of… read it for your ownself. Eccelesiastes 9:10 That’s wisdom… and this is Life.

 

[ryanoneil]

Daniel 12:2 is speaking of People… in the verse before it, it says “thy People shall be delivered” right before it goes into verse 2. So, I do believe that verse 2 is talking of Peoples of the world… Peoples as Nations.

I don’t disagree, but many of the people in verse 2 include God’s chosen people who are not written in the book of life. So, speaking of nations alone doesn’t work, because it doesn’t apply to all individuals in a particular nation.

This, above, is talking about the Jewish… the same metioned in Isaiah 53:11. And hmm… wonder about “the many shall join them out of treachery…” still… they have help, though it may seem like few to them at the time, the number does seem to be finally growing… that would be the help of those who are not trying to join them out of treachery, but out of gratefulness because it is this People that such Beauty has come into the World. Still, Daniel 12:2, thus far I am convinced is speaking of Peoples aka Nations… Christianity I believe is one of those “Nations”… a people that has joined the Jewish People, so they claim, out of treachery… and it is this People that will be among the ones waking to everlasting shame.

You are right it is talking about the Jewish people as well as others. Don’t forget some of the “many who shall join them out of treachery” are infact Jewish.

Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, in these words prophesy to them (to the shepherds): Thus says the Lord GOD: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who have been pasturing themselves! Should not shepherds, rather, pasture sheep? (Ezek 34:2)

I assume you are talking about a second fulfillment of Daniel, if you include Christianity, because Christianity didn’t exist during the first fulfillment.

**It is amazing to me as I look out across other religious forums… it seems more and more are starting to see Who it is the Truth has been resting with all along and who it is that has spread like a disease throughout mankind… the latter is not only isolated to the religion of Christianity, mind you. **

The fire that is spoken of in the testimonies of the prophets is here… now … on this earth. I just CAN NOT find the logic for the Christian concept of hell… neither can I find it in the Tanakh. It is something made up to deter others away from Truth by means of trying to incite fear in them. This really is a shameful thing to do… so many lives wasted because they were so afraid of death when clearly death is nothing to be afraid of… read it for your ownself. Eccelesiastes 9:10 That’s wisdom… and this is Life.

You would have to look at how the idea of the netherworld developed and evolved.

 

[ryanoneil]

There is alot in the rest of post I can’t respond to right now.

Christianity, again, has nothing to do with the covenant between God and mankind and certainly is far from having anything to do with the Holy People, descendents of Abraham, and God.

Don’t forget that God, by a covenant oath, swore to make Abraham “father of a host of nations.” (Gen 17:5) Not only one nation or one people but a royal dynasty. Not to mention that Jesus, the twelve apostles and all of the first Christians were descendents of Abraham and were God’s Holy People.

 

[simplynoone]

I don’t disagree, but many of the people in verse 2 include God’s chosen people who are not written in the book of life. So, speaking of nations alone doesn’t work, because it doesn’t apply to all individuals in a particular nation.

Ryanoneil: we will die. You, Me, the other posters on this forum ~ EVERY ONE… no matter their beliefs or non beliefs; their cultural history; their intentions; their riches (or lack there of); their beauty (or not); their honor (dishonor); their sins and/or righteousness … NO MATTER… we, every individual person alive at this moment, will all go to the grave and there is nothing in death. We will not resurrect once our body is in the ground, or spread out as ashes, or any of the other ways that the dead are dealt with by people still living.

This is it… this is life. This is not a test run. This is the real deal and what we have. What lasts? Well, the memory of one can last in the minds of others. The written words sometimes last. Nations as well can last … either in the physical sense or in our memories. That is what this passage is speaking of… the Nations, the Peoples of the world… either in memory or actual existence. There is ONE NATION that will be everlasting because it is the signature on the contract between God and mankind. That is Israel. There are eastern Nations that have lasted as well and even with their own personal beliefs, they are esteemed… and rightly so. But some nations have been riding on the coat-tail of the signature trying to take what doesn’t belong to them. These will be the Nations that are given to everlasting shame… for their oppressions, their murders, and their attempts to steal what doesn’t belong to them.

You are right it is talking about the Jewish people as well as others. Don’t forget some of the “many who shall join them out of treachery” are infact Jewish.

Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, in these words prophesy to them (to the shepherds): Thus says the Lord GOD: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who have been pasturing themselves! Should not shepherds, rather, pasture sheep? (Ezek 34:2)

**And are you willing to call any of the Jewish out to cite them as the thieves? Shepherds over Israel? I would think of Nations again here… America would be considered “a Shepherd”… and really now… how well have we dealt with them? We arm them against their enemies while dealing quite treacherously on the other hand by arming also their enemies. **

---

**Think and be true to what we know rather than what we want to believe. **

I assume you are talking about a second fulfillment of Daniel, if you include Christianity, because Christianity didn’t exist during the first fulfillment.

The Word is Living… it is the Saviour to the People, Israel. Have you ever done studies on who the Chaldeans were? There are some striking similarities …

The Medes? We can see the effects even here in America of what it is attributed to them…

Again, the Word is the Living Word… the Word of the LORD is called everlasting, so I do take this into consideration and see the brilliance in how it is laid out.

You would have to look at how the idea of the netherworld developed and evolved.

Ecclesiastes 9 … it speaks to the Truth of Life. Here is what I KNOW… we are alive and those that have already died have not EVER been raised … I will never again see my grandmother, my brother, or any of the others who I was blessed to know for sometime but have since died… they do not exist elsewhere… they lived their lives and they are now ONLY a memory that exists in my own mind. Their time began and then ended. They are no more.

I can not grasp why so many can’t just admit that THIS IS THE Truth we know and that all else concerning the idea of the netherworld is nothing more than speculations based not AT ALL on knowledge but rather personal selfish desires. I just can not fool myself the way so many of you can fool yourselves. I would rather KNOW the Truth and face it as it is… I am more useful not only to my own self but to those around me by being absolutely honest rather than feeding into illusions that have caused more harm than good in the world (the Creation of our brilliant Creator).

 

[simplynoone]

There is alot in the rest of post I can’t respond to right now.
Don’t forget that God, by a covenant oath, swore to make Abraham “father of a host of nations.” (Gen 17:5) Not only one nation or one people but a royal dynasty. Not to mention that Jesus, the twelve apostles and all of the first Christians were descendents of Abraham and were God’s Holy People.

Please, take what I am about to say as a generic reference not at all meant to be a reflection on all the individuals within:

Regarding what you said above… never is a “nation” of thieves said to be included in on the blessing of Abraham.

I do absolutely believe and KNOW there are individuals within Christianity that are not dealing treacherously… however, the religion was started for “said” purposes and it has the black marks on it thanks to its history and even in how it is currently being used for selfish purposes (and this charge goes to those in the positions of power rather than the ignorant individuals within whose hearts I do honestly believe are good).

 

[reen12]

Christianity, again, has nothing to do with the covenant between God and mankind and certainly
is far from having anything to do with the Holy People, descendents of Abraham, and God.

Precisely. The Tanach is the Tanach. It ‘precedes’ nothing.

It appears that the number of people who are turning to Judaism for guidance is growing.
Not in the sense of converts, for there is no necessity to convert.
They may be referred to as Hasidic Gentiles.

I think of verses in the Tanach.

Zechariah 8:23

Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men of every nationality, speaking different tongues,
shall take hold, yes, take hold of every Jew by the edge of his garment and say,
“Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”

There are the words of Solomon, at the dedication of the first Temple.
2 Chronicals 6:32-33

For the foreigner, too, who is not of your people Israel, when he comes from a distant land to honor your great name, your mighty power, and your outstretched arm, when they come in prayer to this temple, listen from your heavenly dwelling place, and do whatever the foreigner entreats you, that all the peoples of the earth may know your name, fearing you as do your people Israel, and knowing that this house which I have built is dedicated to your honor.

There is room in the heart of God for those not of His chosen people.

reen12

 

[simplynoone]

Precisely. The Tanach is the Tanach. It ‘precedes’ nothing.

It appears that the number of people who are turning to Judaism for guidance is growing.
Not in the sense of converts, for there is no necessity to convert.
They may be referred to as Hasidic Gentiles.

I think of verses in the Tanach.

Zechariah 8:23

Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men of every nationality, speaking different tongues,
shall take hold, yes, take hold of every Jew by the edge of his garment and say,
“Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”

There are the words of Solomon, at the dedication of the first Temple.
2 Chronicals 6:32-33

For the foreigner, too, who is not of your people Israel, when he comes from a distant land to honor your great name, your mighty power, and your outstretched arm, when they come in prayer to this temple, listen from your heavenly dwelling place, and do whatever the foreigner entreats you, that all the peoples of the earth may know your name, fearing you as do your people Israel, and knowing that this house which I have built is dedicated to your honor.

There is room in the heart of God for those not of His chosen people.

reen12

There is nothing I could say to add to the Beauty you have posted above and only thank you for sharing with us your wisdom.

 

[reen12]

No longer have the requisite stamina to read all that I would like, simplynoone,
or I would be able to tell you that I had read all the posts in your thread.
Just plain energy is no longer a blank check, as it was for decades.
Happily, one cannot linger in life - for 6 decades - and not learn something.
Or - better yet - unlearn somethings.

Having read widely and deeply for 45 years, in many realms,
am now in the midst of the great un-learning.
Divesting myself of the paltry facticity thereof, and
ruminations theoretical.

Having stepped into the vestibule of advanced age, I now
realize that whatever suffering life has held - and in
my own instance, same was profound - this suffering
goes by in an augenblick. The blink of an eye.
The decades seem to pass more quickly as time
moves forward.

I believe, with the Rambam, that there is a world to come.
Olam haba. Perhaps my belief is born of wistful hope.
Or maybe it’s a deeper kind of knowing. A quiet confidence
that all is well, and that the Master of the universe
holds each life sacred.That we are born in innocence
and our task is tikkun olam. The repair of the world.
To drink in and savour the beauty of His creation. His gift.

*The world is charged with the grandeur of God. *
*It will flame out, like shining from shook foil… *
-Hopkins

And just when we think this might be over, and that
this was enough for a lifetime, we may be startled
to find that His best gifts yet await. To slough off the
deep fatigue that comes with aging, and the myriad
limitations thereof, as we find ourselves in the
presence of Him Who has made all.

Best wishes, http://bestsmileys.com/waving/5.gif

reen12

 

[Convert66]

Simplynoone,

I’ve enjoyed what I have read of your thread so far. Others have been dealing with the Scriptural aspects, so I would like to take a turn with a few of your statments not specifically related to Scripture. On an unrelated note I wanted to say that “reen12” writes quite beautifully.

I just CAN NOT find the logic for the Christian concept of hell… neither can I find it in the Tanakh. It is something made up to deter others away from Truth by means of trying to incite fear in them.

You have asserted that fear “. . .deters others away from the Truth . . .” I can find no reason to believe that this statement is necessarily true; because, although fear can be used deceptively, it is simply not always the case. For instance, I include in the category of true facts that life is a good thing, and that courage is superior to cowardice. Fear can influence and inspire both of these things. A hero can only display true courage if he is first afraid. That is what makes his actions heroic. Fear may preserve my life or yours should we run into a lightning storm, or sail into pirated waters accidentally, or were confronted by an alligator or an armed intruder. Fear inspires responsibility as well, because what may happen should I be derelict and let my family drive around in a vehicle with poor tires and bad brakes? Fear prepares us for the potential of danger, and alerts us should that potential actualize.

If this is true of the emotions, of virtue and the body, what of the soul? If sin does damage to the soul of man, just as smoking does damage to the lungs of man, then it follows quite logically that the doctrine of hell, although fearful, can be as useful and informative a caution for our souls as a surgeon general’s warning is to our health, or a tornado siren is to our safety.

This really is a shameful thing to do… so many lives wasted because they were so afraid of death when clearly death is nothing to be afraid of… read it for your ownself.

To the contrary, countless lives are saved every day owing to fear of death. Nature teaches us that death is to be avoided, if possible, which is why we have things like seatbelts and parachutes and bulletproof vests. If death were nothing to be afraid of we shouldn’t bother telling our children to wash their hands after using the bathroom or to keep metal objects out of light sockets. Any parent that did not instill a healthy fear of fire may actuall contribute to the death of a child playing with matches.

Notice that I am not arguing that hell actually exists. My contention is simply that your statements above are mere assertions and do not follow logically from what we know to be true (even counter to the facts) and if hell exists, then it is as useful a caution for a soul that sins as the surgeon general’s warning is for the long-term smoker, or the tornado siren for those in the path of the storm.

All my best . . .

 

[simplynoone]

You have asserted that fear “. . .deters others away from the Truth . . .” I can find no reason to believe that this statement is necessarily true;

It is the fear of the judgments of God that is leading away from Truth. Hell’s existence doesn’t need to be argued, only the place of its existence needs to be recognized. If knowledge does not exist in death (Ecc 9:10) and the Judgements of God are part of bringing forth knowledge (Psalm 19), then Hell does not exist in death.

The fear of Judgments, Hell, is the blinders that keep people from seeing the Truth.

Edited so as not to overwhelm all at once.

 

[simplynoone]

No longer have the requisite stamina to read all that I would like, simplynoone,
or I would be able to tell you that I had read all the posts in your thread.
Just plain energy is no longer a blank check, as it was for decades.
Happily, one cannot linger in life - for 6 decades - and not learn something.
Or - better yet - unlearn somethings.

Having read widely and deeply for 45 years, in many realms,
am now in the midst of the great un-learning.
Divesting myself of the paltry facticity thereof, and
ruminations theoretical.

Having stepped into the vestibule of advanced age, I now
realize that whatever suffering life has held - and in
my own instance, same was profound - this suffering
goes by in an augenblick. The blink of an eye.
The decades seem to pass more quickly as time
moves forward.

I believe, with the Rambam, that there is a world to come.
Olam haba. Perhaps my belief is born of wistful hope.
Or maybe it’s a deeper kind of knowing. A quiet confidence
that all is well, and that the Master of the universe
holds each life sacred.That we are born in innocence
and our task is tikkun olam. The repair of the world.
To drink in and savour the beauty of His creation. His gift.

*The world is charged with the grandeur of God. *
*It will flame out, like shining from shook foil… *
-Hopkins

And just when we think this might be over, and that
this was enough for a lifetime, we may be startled
to find that His best gifts yet await. To slough off the
deep fatigue that comes with aging, and the myriad
limitations thereof, as we find ourselves in the
presence of Him Who has made all.

Best wishes, http://bestsmileys.com/waving/5.gif

reen12

You have quite the poetic touch in your writings. I do not disbelieve in the concept of “the world to come”… I just don’t believe in the false interpretations of it. We are the ones who are creating the world to come… Look around at mankind and what we are doing on the face of this earth; now answer honestly, what is comforting about the idea of being resurrected physically into the consequences, the work of mankind’s hands? At this point, considering, ceasing to exist seems far more merciful than being given the fruits of mankind’s labor, no? Of course, there is even little comfort in this for there are the generations after us who will be dealing with the consequences of our labors… quite unfair to them really.

 

[ryanoneil]

Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, in these words prophesy to them (to the shepherds): Thus says the Lord GOD: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who have been pasturing themselves! Should not shepherds, rather, pasture sheep? (Ezek 34:2)

And are you willing to call any of the Jewish out to cite them as the thieves? Shepherds over Israel? I would think of Nations again here… America would be considered “a Shepherd”… and really now… how well have we dealt with them? We arm them against their enemies while dealing quite treacherously on the other hand by arming also their enemies.

Think and be true to what we know rather than what we want to believe.

Hi simplynoone!

I don’t need to call them out because Ezekiel did. The shepherds of Israel is refering to the leaders of the people. Not their oppressors or allies. It is saying that the people were being neglected and were following false prophets. Their teachers were only seeking advantage for them selves.

 

[ryanoneil]

Ecclesiastes 9 … it speaks to the Truth of Life. Here is what I KNOW… we are alive and those that have already died have not EVER been raised … I will never again see my grandmother, my brother, or any of the others who I was blessed to know for sometime but have since died… they do not exist elsewhere… they lived their lives and they are now ONLY a memory that exists in my own mind. Their time began and then ended. They are no more.

I can not grasp why so many can’t just admit that THIS IS THE Truth we know and that all else concerning the idea of the netherworld is nothing more than speculations based not AT ALL on knowledge but rather personal selfish desires. I just can not fool myself the way so many of you can fool yourselves. I would rather KNOW the Truth and face it as it is… I am more useful not only to my own self but to those around me by being absolutely honest rather than feeding into illusions that have caused more harm than good in the world (the Creation of our brilliant Creator).

Hi simplynoone! I guess I just don’t understand. This doesn’t seem like speculation and personal selfish desire.

Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the shades arise and praise you? Selah Is your love proclaimed in the grave, your fidelity in the tomb? Are your marvels declared in the darkness, your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion? (Ps 88:11-13) link to Ps 88

**Thus no tree may grow lofty in stature or raise its crest among the clouds; no tree fed by water may stand by itself in its loftiness. For all of them are destined for death, for the land below, For the company of mortals, those who go down into the pit. (Ezek 31:14)

"The LORD puts to death and gives life; he casts down to the nether world; he raises up again. (1 Sam 2:6)

The nether world below is all astir preparing for your coming; It awakens the shades to greet you, all the leaders of the earth; It has the kings of all nations rise from their thrones. All of them speak out and say to you, "You too have become weak like us, you are the same as we. (Isa 14:9-10)**

 

[reen12]

You have quite the poetic touch in your writings.

I credit any poetic gift to my Irish ancestry. Am working on a children’s book
on Reb Zusia, and doing the drawings as well.

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I love Judaic thought, simplynoone. Where dogma seems a curiosity,
and many opinions, on a given reality, are accomodated.
Where actions are stressed, rather than opining.
To fulfill the mizvoth, with a quiet mind, seems wise to me.
To trust Hashem in whatever the reality to come.

Kindest regards,

reen12

 

[robsully]

Hello all; I am happy to see the thread has resumed, although unhappy to find that my request has still not been answered.

As I stated earlier my quest is a better understanding of God. In this quest I would like to understand Christianity, but unable to, for I cannot crack the riddle of the Christian resurrection.

If I have to resort to pleading, well, I am pleading for someone to explain the logic behind the Christian resurrection. As I stated earlier I do not require biblical quotes, just plain simple logic.

Thank you