Resurrection? Why?

[ryanoneil]

It was not so their first born would not die at ALL though because they are all dead. It was so they would not die in their affliction (see my signature ). It was so they would not die in the land of oppression. Well, it was the same land that I was born into and have been set free from. The illusions and the lies.

Do you think we believe differently?

Christianity is NOT based on the Tanakh. it IS based on the same mythologies that came out of Egypt. It is to believe that we are not all free before God and that we can not approach Him as we are… WE CAN!!! I did and though my testimony is not (and should not) be proof that He made SURE I knew I could approach Him my own self, He did prove it in such a REAL & sweet way, that I am still astounded… and I STILL have assurances constantly that are so catered to me personally telling me I am on the right path. And I do NOT just say this… I chunked the Bible out altogether and became a self professed atheist (only in the sense that I knew I had a curious tug in me, but could not find it in the teachings around me). The promises and the approval to ask for proof is there in the TAnakh and that is how He came to grab my attention most unexpectedly… but you all refer to it as OLD and thus, you miss out on HIM… on Him in this Life that He created.

Christianity is based on the Tanakh, and we don’t miss out on God in this life. I don’t know why you thinks that. Maybe you are lumping all denominations of Christianity into one, like many people do with the sects in Judaism.

I know you do not think you do… but tell me, one place, where Jesus’ was said to be God, the Saviour, born of a virgin, to be killed and resurrected on the third day… Amos 3:7 and numerous other places in the prophets’ testimonies says these things ARE declared already within them… and they are. If you can’t show me where Jesus is declared as all of this, to be the fulfillment of the prophecies and then some, then it is blind faith and you are only hoping you are right without any real proof. Real proof is what I have and they are the fulfillment of the promises in the Tanakh… before I even knew they existed, they were fulfilled and they were “spoken” to me … then I would read them written there precisely as it was carried out.

Just as you believe the Old Testament is fulfilled in the people of Israel, we believe it is also fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. I’m afraid any scripture I give you will be rejected because we have different ways of understanding it. For example: God said it was a sin for the people to ask for a king because he was their king. But he gave them one. Then God gave David the title Most High, which is a divine title, even though God himself is Most High. And God promised David’s heir will be king forever, but also promised He be their king forever. David even called his heir Lord meaning he would be greater than he was. The prophets promised a child would be born who is: God is with us, Wonder Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace, and he would be given dominion forever. All titles and things attributed to God. It isn’t contained in one verse but the entire Old Testament points to the larger fulfillment in Jesus.

My reward is not that I wont die… but that I will not die in my afflictions. I will die knowing that I TRULY lived the gift of life that He allowed me to have.

I believe that also, but I believe that God will raise us after we die.

Anyway, the symbology in the passover lamb is that my house been rid of the illusions and in obeying to teach my children and them teaching their children etc, the seed of my family will continue on the earth in Truth and not under the oppression of those who would seek to keep us delusional. We will make choices in awareness and we will do so for the good of mankind. We, my family, will be a family that seeks the God of Israel and not a god that only kept us waiting for fantasies that will never come.

That is great what you are saying, but it is only half the story. Abraham wandered the land promised to his descendant as an alien, long before passover. And even possesing the promised land David called himself a sojourner, a passing stranger, and a guest like his ancestors (Ps 39:13), because the Patriarchs realized that earth was not their home. We are meant for a dwelling more glorious and lasting, which doesn’t take anything away from our time here. It means we can posses heaven before we die. Heaven is not a fantasy and it is already here (just not in it’s full glory).

 

[ryanoneil]

And here is what I find to be amazing. That so many people will point this out and yet they overlook that Moses did not go on into the promised land. He got to see it, but he did not enter. Know why? Because they would have worshipped him (the metaphor of striking the rock for water without first making sure the Children knew he was not their Saviour, but that it was GOD). And some did worship Moses as their savior… just as many worship Jesus now. I agree, the two are of the same brand… and just as many ignored the teachings of Moses to rather worship him as the image of their savior, so it is done with Jesus in that his teachings are not held up to weigh in the balances of Truth… IN FACT, worse, they have no REAL clue that they should even decipher the truth from the lies in the teachings attributed to Jesus because they have just made him their god altogether. Thus, a man gets the credit for the Creator’s work yet again! *

Are you refering to Meribah and Massah when the people put God to the test saying: “Is the Lord in our midst or not?” (Ex 17:7) Doesn’t scripture say Moses and Aaron did not enter into the promised land because they doubted God’s mercy toward his rebellious people?

But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you were not faithful to me in showing forth my sanctity before the Israelites, you shall not lead this community into the land I will give them.” These are the waters of Meribah, where the Israelites contended against the LORD, and where he revealed his sanctity among them. (Num 20:12-13)

We believe the Lord is in our midst in Jesus. We also believe that God the Son was present with God the Father before time itself began. Jesus is the spoken Word that brought all things into existence. That same Word which once created the universe renewed the universe, when he came in the flesh as Jesus Christ. We don’t believe Jesus was made god or man is taking God’s credit.

*GOOD! I am glad. I am as well. You seem to have more knowledge of the front of your Bible than most. I wonder, then, how it is you have chosen what you have? *

I don’t have room or time to say it all, and you probably won’t understand. When you read (Ezek 47:1-12) or (Zech 14:8-9), water streams from the Temple bringing new life and the Lord becomes king over the earth and the nations come to celebrate the “feast of booths.” We believe all of this points to Jesus. He is the rock that slakes our thirst, the true temple that channels life to the world, and the Lord who reigns as king over the world. And this is not left for the future but is right now, and has been for 2,000 years (but not in it’s full glory).

 

[simplynoone]

I think I see the correlation. But, there is a difference between laying down one’s life, and having it taken.

*I do not see in the Tanakh that it is acceptable for one man to die for anothers sins in the physical sense. There would be no point to it. Physical death is not a punishment, rather it is natural. Also, human sacrifice in the sense that Christianity refers to is a practice of the heathen. Not only did God forbid following in the ways of the heathens and their worshiping their gods, but God indeed proved that He was not like the heathen gods in that human sacrifice (again, in the way that Christians view it) was not something He would allow for (exampled in the story of Abraham w/ his son Isaac). *

I’m not quite sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying anyone with one drop of Jewish blood belongs to the houses of Judah and Israel? Is not the covenant promise made with Abraham extended to all people?

*It says that all nations would be blessed through Abraham… not that all nations and peoples would be chosen because of Abraham. *
**
*And I do not see that Gentiles cannot join to the covenant, but it is the covenant set up with Israel and not the one that Paul set up with the Christians (and that does require being circumcised in the flesh… not JUST the heart). A Gentile would have to join it via Isaiah 56. Also, there are no special rewards for joining to the covenant… a Gentile is considered righteous before God just for obeying the commmands of the Noahide Law… so, I think a LOT of the misunderstanding here is that so many assume that there are rewards being doled out here and there are not. One joins the covenant only if they are specifically being called to do so and if they have the heart for serving (not for thought of reward, but because it is already in them to do so). *

I don’t disagree with what you are saying and the reconciliation aspect is essential. But sacrifice often served as an act of renunciation and sorrow for sins. The “blood” of the animal symbolized the life of the one offering the sacrifice. Recognizing that his sins deserved death, the person offered the animal’s life in place of his own. I don’t understand how this aspect can be ignored if someone believes in the entire Law. Isn’t this a part of the brilliance in the law of God?

*Yes, I do think it was brilliant… it was symbolic of Israel, the suffering servant. It is the knowledge that came through the sacrifice of the People… not the sacrifices of the animals in and of themselves. *

And as far as Jesus sacrifice, it is about more than sin and atonement. Can I get your opinion why the covenant with God, at Sinai, was ratified with blood?

When Moses came to the people and related all the words and ordinances of the LORD, they all answered with one voice, “We will do everything that the LORD has told us.” Moses then wrote down all the words of the LORD and, rising early the next day, he erected at the foot of the mountain an altar and twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel. Then, having sent certain young men of the Israelites to offer holocausts and sacrifice young bulls as peace offerings to the LORD, Moses took half of the blood and put it in large bowls; the other half he splashed on the altar. Taking the book of the covenant, he read it aloud to the people, who answered, “All that the LORD has said, we will heed and do.” Then he took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words of his.” (Ex 24:3-8)

Yes the servant is identified with the people of Israel, however, verses 5 and 6 distinguish the Servant from Israel. We believe the servant is Jesus.

Here is my understanding of it. The house of Judah rejected the covenant of God, but God promised king David that his seed would eternally remain on the “throne.” Thus, the house of Israel was sacrificed… it is through the knowledge of their sacrifice that the many (those of Judah) came to understand the importance of the knowledge of God Isaiah 53:11. It is far less mystical and much more brilliant than Christians give God credit for. Instead, the give credit to one man.
**
*Besides, do you know what Immanuel means. So many say that Jesus is their representative here on earth of God and yet, he is not here. However, “God with us” is speaking of Judah (Isaiah 8:8) … truly God is with them and they are here on earth serving to bring forth the knowledge of God. *

usccb.org/nab/bible/2maccabees/2maccabees7.htm

Why does God allow an animal to die physically for a person’s sins?

*It was two fold… one… God in His wisdom was weening the children of Israel from the mindset that they had been in… that sacrifices really atone for sin… when it is now clear that God’s ways are equal… we consider and then turn from our sins to walk in the ways of God. *
**
*Also, the sacrificial system was set up the way it was while they were being weened to be symbolic of what was to come… and I am sorry, but there are not any sacrifices that point to the death of one man as sin atonement for the world… the one you pulled out in Exodus isn’t even close to pointing to the sacrifice that Christianity believes in. *

 

[simplynoone]

You mentioned “words of judgment” from those Pro-Life leaflets and brochures… what makes you say they were words of “judgment”? Aren’t passing a judgment on them?

*I am almost positive I worded it correctly, no? That the judgment was passed by the signs and the words and the brochures they are given are of generic places… have you ever been to one of those places? I have (not for my own personal benefit, but rather to see what these women were being sent to)… *

*Again, I am simply saying that unless someone is going to personally take the young ladies into their environment and care for them during what IS a difficult time, they should not be out there condemning them. It is their choice and not ours to make for them. I think there are better alternatives to cutting down the number of abortions than to make a spectacle of the women. *

simplynoone;5276955:

Try what? To see what the Pro-Lifers TRULY tells these women and TRULY tells the people. You should not forget one thing: a wrong cannot be annuled by another wrong! Never! But how the Pro-Lifers deliver their message, you fail to see it. You are very quick to judge them, really! I maintain it! I myself used to believe the things were as you have presented it. But not any more. You don’t know what the Pro-Life movement is really about! Otherwise you would be more cautious in your reproaches, I am sure.

*Again, one must wonder if you read my posts. I honestly believe this because of your statement made, “you don’t know what the pro-life movement is really about.” Go back and read my posts on this topic here in this thread and you will see that I do speak with certainty. *
**
*Funny too, I was going through a folder of mine today that I have put my collections of brochures, etc such events. I came across a couple of horrid brochures handed out… it was the Catholic stamp of approval on the back of these brochures. So, again, I do speak with knowledge here. *
**
*I really think that rather than hearing me out, you are being defensive for its own sake. My whole point is that to pick something you consider sinful (immoral) and speak out against it does not make one a follower of the ways of God in and of itself. *

 

[simplynoone]

Can Maccabes be found in your Bible?

No

 

[simplynoone]

LAPELL:Therefore, those men could be trusted, couldn’t they?
I tell you that what you are talking about here certainly deserves respect.

*Well, it has more to do with just that. Really, I can not lie that there are so many things that were at work in my coming to see the Truth in the Tanakh and then also in the way that I read it that to expound on it is not something I am fully ready to do just yet. I just give bits and pieces as it applies to a discussion. Truly though (and I do not expect anyone to take my own personal subjective experience to be something that could apply to all… for it was mine), the way it all came about was the “hand” of God for it is not the words of man that I am trusting in and of themselves and to come about trusting the Word of God had to be done in such a precise way with me because I DID see it all as the words of man only. *

**It’s so great to have this verse here. So Job knew that he was in need of salvation in spite of his integrity. **

*I did as well… I just think that you and I see salvation as different. You see it as gaining eternal life and I think physical death is natural… so salvation to me is the same thing that Job was speaking of… to know God in life; to KNOW that God is hearing you and that He is answering… *
**
*This is expounded on in the end when God “speaks” to Job about the natural ways in which He works. It is to know the ways of God to be able to know His “voice” apart from the deceptions. In that, life is worth every minute despite the affliction. I can not say that as of yet I have been restored to what it is my heart longs for, but when it seems hard to wait, I am given what it is I need to endure. (and what I am waiting for is not eternal life, but rather something else… more personal and less fantastical than most would feel worthy of waiting for). If I were to die tomorrow though, I know that my life has been justified. That to me is the most important of all. *

 

[simplynoone]

Do you think we believe differently?

*Yes, I do. I do not trust in man the way that you seem to. Also, I live “now” and not in the hope of death. *

Christianity is based on the Tanakh, and we don’t miss out on God in this life. I don’t know why you thinks that. Maybe you are lumping all denominations of Christianity into one, like many people do with the sects in Judaism.

*I do acknowledge there are differences and I see more hope in certain ways in one sect and more hope in other sects in other ways. I had a good friend tell me once when I thought the Catholics are worthless altogether (just going for all out honesty here) that I was failing to see what you all do have going for you… that is tradition. I do now see that he was correct and in fact, despite that I think the Catholic faith is more idolatrous, I do admire that you are all held together by the strong bonds of the traditions (the traditions of Judaism is more comfortable to me, but the reasons I want to join to them is what I can relate to with the Catholics… hope that makes sense). *
**
*What I can relate to in the baptist religions is that they are not idolatrous (at least the independent baptists for the most part)… they do not see that Jesus IS God, but just that he is the son of God… not divine in nature… still, that Jesus is singled out is not something I agree with. I believe that Israel, the People is the Son of God and Jesus did nothing that was MORE significant than the rest of them… just that Paul chose to single him out and teach others to worship him.

The evangelicals just plain scare me to be honest. They are militant with Christianity and though they speak as though they are for the Jewish out one side of their mouths, I know that this is not exactly what they are teaching. The Catholics seem to hold the Jewish in high regards, genuinely, though I also take into account that this is the only exposure to Catholicism I have had. *

Just as you believe the Old Testament is fulfilled in the people of Israel, we believe it is also fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. I’m afraid any scripture I give you will be rejected because we have different ways of understanding it. For example: God said it was a sin for the people to ask for a king because he was their king. But he gave them one. Then God gave David the title Most High, which is a divine title, even though God himself is Most High. And God promised David’s heir will be king forever, but also promised He be their king forever. David even called his heir Lord meaning he would be greater than he was. The prophets promised a child would be born who is: God is with us, Wonder Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace, and he would be given dominion forever. All titles and things attributed to God. It isn’t contained in one verse but the entire Old Testament points to the larger fulfillment in Jesus.

*You are right… these things are rejected by me as being fulfilled by Jesus. David was promised that his seed would be on the eternal throne… and they are. The child who was to be named Immanuel was not Jesus (not even the right name, by the way) is already declared as Judah (Isaiah 8:8). *
**
*I don’t mean to sound dismissive, but it does astound me that so many are willing to discard the declarations already given to allow men who are not even Jewish change them to deceive you all to worshiping a man as God. It is blatantly idol worshiping. It is worshiping man over God. To see the People being declared and then to come to the realization of how that is truly the correct declaration is to give God the credit… only God. For only He, being outside of time, could orchestrate this work so brilliantly. *

I believe that also, but I believe that God will raise us after we die.

*And yet, no one has been raised physically in the way that you all teach. It is unnatural and not the way that God established this creation. Physical death is not the curse, it is a blessing. *

That is great what you are saying, but it is only half the story. Abraham wandered the land promised to his descendant as an alien, long before passover. And even possesing the promised land David called himself a sojourner, a passing stranger, and a guest like his ancestors (Ps 39:13), because the Patriarchs realized that earth was not their home. We are meant for a dwelling more glorious and lasting, which doesn’t take anything away from our time here. It means we can posses heaven before we die. Heaven is not a fantasy and it is already here (just not in it’s full glory).

*What is the “full glory” in your opinion. I actually am delighted in some of what you say here. It shows me that perhaps you have had a bit of enlightenment to the Truth your own self… though, I could be misunderstanding. I hope not. *

 

[Lapell]

LAPELL:Therefore, those men could be trusted, couldn’t they?
I tell you that what you are talking about here certainly deserves respect.

*Well, it has more to do with just that. Really, I can not lie that there are so many things that were at work in my coming to see the Truth in the Tanakh and then also in the way that I read it that to expound on it is not something I am fully ready to do just yet. I just give bits and pieces as it applies to a discussion. Truly though (and I do not expect anyone to take my own personal subjective experience to be something that could apply to all… for it was mine), the way it all came about was the “hand” of God for it is not the words of man that I am trusting in and of themselves and to come about trusting the Word of God had to be done in such a precise way with me because I DID see it all as the words of man only. *

*I did as well… I just think that you and I see salvation as different. You see it as gaining eternal life and I think physical death is natural… so salvation to me is the same thing that Job was speaking of… to know God in life; to KNOW that God is hearing you and that He is answering… *
**
*This is expounded on in the end when God “speaks” to Job about the natural ways in which He works. It is to know the ways of God to be able to know His “voice” apart from the deceptions. In that, life is worth every minute despite the affliction. I can not say that as of yet I have been restored to what it is my heart longs for, but when it seems hard to wait, I am given what it is I need to endure. (and what I am waiting for is not eternal life, but rather something else… more personal and less fantastical than most would feel worthy of waiting for). If I were to die tomorrow though, I know that my life has been justified. That to me is the most important of all. *

O.K. then… but if there is a world to come and you happen to wake up into it, will you not accept? Something tells me that your answer would be yes even though you may not believe it could happen.
In my view, if there is no world to come, that would mean that Jesus bore false witness, which I don’t think he did though.

 

[simplynoone]

O.K. then… but if there is a world to come and you happen to wake up into it, will you not accept? Something tells me that your answer would be yes even though you may not believe it could happen.
In my view, if there is no world to come, that would mean that Jesus bore false witness, which I don’t think he did though.

*I am totally lost as to what your point here is, to be honest with you Lapell. What if THIS is the world to come? I accept this and I accept it to be the result of what has been planted in the past. Now I only hope to sew something that may take root for good for the benefit of those who come after me.

I really do not understand what you mean about Jesus having been a false witness. Do you mind to explain this for me? *

 

[Lapell]

*I am totally lost as to what your point here is, to be honest with you Lapell. What if THIS is the world to come? I accept this and I accept it to be the result of what has been planted in the past. Now I only hope to sew something that may take root for good for the benefit of those who come after me.

I really do not understand what you mean about Jesus having been a false witness. Do you mind to explain this for me? *

He spoke about resurrection and also about a Last Judgment (Mt 25), so if there is no resurrection, there is no world to come, and then Jesus would have been a false witness. Because Mt 25 says it even more than the parable of the rich man and the poor Lazarus…

 

[Lapell]

Also, what do you make of Jesus’ own resurrection? To make it up and to die from having witness repeatedly and unabashedly about Jesus’ Resurrection despite the death threats and much persecutions. Had it been a lie, I doubt it would have called but such a long time repressing it without success… and the Church should have died long ago had it been a lie, no???

 

[ryanoneil]

Sorry, I have been very busy and I will be for the next two weeks. Forgive me if my answers are short. I will do my best to pick up the conversation later.

Yes, I do. I do not trust in man the way that you seem to. Also, I live “now” and not in the hope of death.

We do believe everyone will die eventually. We believe life is a gift and must be lived to the fullest. Being set free in this life is “a” goal, but that doesn’t mean the world will stop being oppresive and full of lies. The Exodus is a perfect example. We are called to endure the suffering and pain of life in faith hope and love, which is our freedom and is a taste of the freedom to come. We live free in the ways of God now and hope for the day when we can spend eternity in his presence, where there are absolutely no illusions or lies.

The best way I can think to describe it is: we have an exodus during this life. We pass from “spiritual” sin and death to new life and freedom. “Earthly” sin and death still exist, so we strive to remain in God’s ways and spiritual freedom. This prepairs us for the next exodus when we physically die. If we endure in the earthly freedom we pass from the sin and death of the world to the new life and freedom of eternity.

Does that make any sense?

The Catholics seem to hold the Jewish in high regards, genuinely, though I also take into account that this is the only exposure to Catholicism I have had.

We consider Jews to be our spiritual older brothers and sisters.

You are right. these things are rejected by me as being fulfilled by Jesus. David was promised that his seed would be on the eternal throne… and they are. The child who was to be named Immanuel was not Jesus (not even the right name, by the way) is already declared as Judah (Isaiah 8:8).

We don’t deny that but we also see another fulfillment in an individual. In other word, we believe the view you hold is true and that it points to something more. We point to (Isaiah 8:3-4)

Then I went to the prophetess and she conceived and bore a son. The LORD said to me: Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz, for before the child knows how to call his father or mother by name, the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be carried off by the king of Assyria.

We see this individual as the first fulfillment (in addition to your view). The Jews who came to believe in Jesus remembered that some of God’s people taught that the events centered on Isaiah 7:14 still had another future fulfillment in mind. In other words, the birth of a son via a young woman that signaled the coming salvation of God’s faithful remanant and the destruction ot the faithless majority, was a prophecy pointing to a more important fulfillment in the future. Someday another son would come who would signal the availability of a more universal salvation for Israel.

• I don’t mean to sound dismissive, but it does astound me that so many are willing to discard the declarations already given to allow men who are not even Jewish change them to deceive you all to worshiping a man as God. It is blatantly idol worshiping. It is worshiping man over God. To see the People being declared and then to come to the realization of how that is truly the correct declaration is to give God the credit… only God. For only He, being outside of time, could orchestrate this work so brilliantly.*

That is just it. We believe what was declared in the past but believe that more was revealed. Everthing is possible for God, including Him directly entering time and space in the form of man. We give the credit to God. We don’t worship a man, but worship God who came as man.

If you don’t believe it, I understand why you would think it is idol worship. As we believe Jesus and the Father are one, we don’t believe it is idol worship. In our opinion we worship God Himself.

 

[ryanoneil]

And yet, no one has been raised physically in the way that you all teach. It is unnatural and not the way that God established this creation. Physical death is not the curse, it is a blessing.

Jesus has. He is the first fruit. This could be a long discussion I don’t have time for right now. Physical death being a curse or blessing is another big discussion. I would agree that death is a blessing that allows us to exit time and enter eternity, but that assumes an afterlife. When it comes to breaking laws (ie keeping the Sabbath) it is definately a curse.

• What is the “full glory” in your opinion. I actually am delighted in some of what you say here. It shows me that perhaps you have had a bit of enlightenment to the Truth your own self… though, I could be misunderstanding. I hope not. *

I don’t even know where to start, and how to condense an entire belief system. Maybe describing one aspect would help (even if it is only a sliver).

The Sabbath is a day of worship when God and the people He created (in His image) rest together in love. He revealed to Moses that it was to be observed as a perpetual covenant (Ex 31:12-17). It happens throughout our lives and throughout history. We enter into God’s rest in this world on the Sabbath, and we experience heaven on earth. In a greater sense, the first six days are our lives. The seventh is our death and the greater Sabbath. We leave the world and truely enter heaven where we rest with God.

Another example is the image of the bridegroom coming to take His people as his spouse. It applies to our lives when we reform our lives to live according to the covenant (Obviously we have different understandings of the New Covenant). This happens in the world. God is among us and we experience heaven on earth. That doesn’t mean it happens concretely in a physical sense, but in a spiritual sense.

Take Hosea 2:16-24 and Isaiah 54:4-8 for example. I don’t know exactly how you enterprit these two text, but we Catholics believe this has been fulfilled for the Jews. We also believe it was fulfilled for all of us through Christ. We also believe in a fulfillment at the very end of time. In other words, we live our lives like the unfaithful bride and in our life we repent and God comes to us as a bridegroom. When we die it becomes permanent in heaven (or hell if we did not repent). At the end of time it will become permanent in the physical world.

“On that day” time will give way to eternity. Heaven will literally come to earth and the natural laws and universe will end. The old will be destroyed and the new heaven and earth will be eternal. Those who were in heaven will recieve their resurrected body. We will be alive forever, but resting with God in our midst. Go back and re-read the links I provided. We believe their are eternal consequence to these words. All previous fulfillments “On that day” point to what will happen on the new earth, during the final fulfillment.

So, God espouses us to him forever (Hos 2:21) in an earthly covenant. If we abide in the covenant and are graced with the gift of heaven, it is fulfilled on a larger sense on the perpetual Sabbath. At the end of time, when God returns and brings heaven with him, we will be resurrected and that is the “full glory” I am speaking of.

What is the “full glory” in your opinion?

 

[simplynoone]

He spoke about resurrection and also about a Last Judgment (Mt 25), so if there is no resurrection, there is no world to come, and then Jesus would have been a false witness. Because Mt 25 says it even more than the parable of the rich man and the poor Lazarus…

*You know, Lapell, I have no problem to take all of these stories and make them allegorical tales of what would happen when Israel, the People would resurrect to their Land and to the awareness of Truth. That you all take them literal is my only problem in doing such. shrugs I read John 10 (the first part of it) and understood it perfectly to mean that those who are ready for the truth would in fact, receive the truth and those who aren’t ready, well… they would fall for the age old deception that we can trace all the way back to the oppression of the Children of Israel in ancient Egypt… that which the Church is teaching you all now. That the path is narrow and few will there be that find it… well, that makes perfect sense to me as well. It is pretty much stated in the Tanakh as well… one of those places being in Psalm 28:5 *

Also, what do you make of Jesus’ own resurrection? To make it up and to die from having witness repeatedly and unabashedly about Jesus’ Resurrection despite the death threats and much persecutions. Had it been a lie, I doubt it would have called but such a long time repressing it without success… and the Church should have died long ago had it been a lie, no???

*If it is being accepted as literal, I will have to admit that I want to witness it personally… since it is, after all, against the natural laws established by God. There is nothing wrong with my attitude about this as is even evidenced in the story of Thomas… I could care less about being MORE blessed than others… I still want proof. Isaiah is clear that I will see and hear… and in that, I believe that I will!! and I have; just not in the fantastical ways that man thinks God should work… I have witnessed the Truth in the actual ways that were established by God from the beginning (as is evidenced in Isaiah… the written Word of God). *

 

[Lapell]

simplynoone, you seem to know the “natural” laws so well and in detail… how do you know that extraordinary phenomena would necessarily be “against” the natural laws? The fact that you receive messages like from nowhere, are they part of the “natural” laws as you see them? In which way? Please explain.

 

[simplynoone]

simplynoone, you seem to know the “natural” laws so well and in detail… how do you know that extraordinary phenomena would necessarily be “against” the natural laws? The fact that you receive messages like from nowhere, are they part of the “natural” laws as you see them? In which way? Please explain.

I believe that we have evolved enough to understand that the dead raising to life spoken of in the Tanakh cannot be speaking literally… and put them into context to see that indeed it is not; but rather they are speaking allegorically of Israel. It is not that I have gained this knowledge out of thin air… I have gained it from modern day knowledge of how nature works (it is BASIC knowledge that when one is dead and buried, they are not coming back) and that God established the Laws of Nature and physical death being a finality for us, men and women of the human species, is very much a part of the natural Laws established by God… well, that knowledge I have gained from the Tanakh.

 

[simplynoone]

Sorry, I have been very busy and I will be for the next two weeks. Forgive me if my answers are short. I will do my best to pick up the conversation later.

*Not at all a problem. *

We do believe everyone will die eventually. We believe life is a gift and must be lived to the fullest. Being set free in this life is “a” goal, but that doesn’t mean the world will stop being oppresive and full of lies. The Exodus is a perfect example. We are called to endure the suffering and pain of life in faith hope and love, which is our freedom and is a taste of the freedom to come. We live free in the ways of God now and hope for the day when we can spend eternity in his presence, where there are absolutely no illusions or lies.

*I am sure that you have heard the great words of Gandhi, “Be the change that you wish to see.” This is our goal… that we each individually are that change that we want to happen… in this, our life (our seed… our family tree) could actually be free of oppression one day. At this point, most are content to sit on the sidelines and live in their delusional fantasies that a demigod will return one day to rescue them. This IS the oppression in the world today and this is why I speak against these fantasies. *
**
*Here is an example of the mindset that I am of and would now like to be able to teach others to be of as well: *
**
*Have you ever let something go? Let’s take a room in your house, for instance… Have you ever let “stuff” accumulate and then one day you think to yourself, “how did it get this way?” and wish you could just wake up the next day to see it clean again? Well, it got that way over time because the “stuff” was not dealt with when it should have been… and slowly it accumulated and the future (today) came to pass and tomorrow will be the same if it is not taken care of NOW. Thus, we are deciding how this world will be every day… every moment… every second. *
**
*Take it to the next level… America was set into motion by its forefathers to be a constitutional republic (a MARVELOUS governmental system in its original state)… but slowly, as time passed, this changed and that changed… there was not a REAL check and balance kept up as we were warned to be VERY mindful to do by the forefathers so that it could remain as it was meant to be… now, here we are, in the future dealing with an ever increasing socialist democratic system (quite toxic) … it is not like it just was this way… it was allowed to get to this place and it will not ever get better unless DRASTIC measures are taken (the kind most don’t want to consider)… thus, we can know that the system of this country will continue to get more oppressive… Christianity has helped to create this, what we are under now, in fact. *
**
*The next level? The enviroment of this world. Listen, God established the foundations of the world and then left it to the care of mankind, giving US the dominion over it; giving US the command to subdue it (how we have chosen to do it is leading toward not only the extinction of many plants and animals, but it WILL ultimately lead to our own demise)… so, the consequences incurred are no one’s fault but our own… that we were given the tool to change course, the ability to rationalize, and choose not to use it, well… it leaves us without the excuse. No amount of prayer will change what we aren’t first willing to change ourselves… that means drum roll a change of thinking.

I am amazed that THE MAJORITY of mankind on this planet right now are THIS oblivious to what we are headed towards by our own hands… most just choose to live in their delusional fantasies believing they have no control when we are the ones who were left with the control… *
**
*We are creating the future and it is truly our LIFE at stake here… but not on an individual basis… the Life of mankind on this planet. There will always be those willing to take advantage and most of those types don’t give a thought to the future of this planet and the Life that is here for they are planning ahead for their own vain pleasure… That it is allowed to continue is the fault of the rest of us for only complaining rather than changing the mindsets of first, ourselves, and then those of others. It is such basic logic and yet it escapes mankind… it is what the Tanakh talks about… it is an encouragement to a group, because a small group can change the world… *
**
Proof? Christianity did (just not for the better)… I think it is time for another direction already as most Christians are now just waiting to be rescued and trying to gain recruits to their lazy non-thinking habits (no offense meant… just saying the truth).

 

[simplynoone]

The best way I can think to describe it is: we have an exodus during this life. We pass from “spiritual” sin and death to new life and freedom. “Earthly” sin and death still exist, so we strive to remain in God’s ways and spiritual freedom. This prepairs us for the next exodus when we physically die. If we endure in the earthly freedom we pass from the sin and death of the world to the new life and freedom of eternity.
Does that make any sense?

*No… honestly it does not make any sense to me and this is the reason why I was not one made to be of the mindset of Christianity. *

*What I read in the Tanakh is that the children of Egypt were oppressed by their own choice… because thy chose to keep believing the illusions given of those who wanted to continue controlling them. Moses tried to kill their delusional state as it is said in the allegorical picture of him killing the Egyptian… but they were angry and upset at him much in the same way many Christians get upset with me (not you, and I thank you for this). *

*Moses was enlightened how to use natural means to cater to their delusional vision and thus, led them out of Egypt… then, in this Divinely enlightened state, gave them Laws that would not only cater to their slavish mentality, but was in just such a way as to enlighten them as they would continue to evolve into more intelligent humans, becoming more aware of their purpose on this earth… to have dominion on and subdue it… but within the Laws of God. *

Unfortunately, the lie was picked back up and became a world religion bent on destruction via not employing the most precious gift given to us by God… the breath of Life (awareness… the ability to rationalize). Christianity is both a blessing aqnd a curse in that it brought the awareness of the God of Israel to the world and the curse would be that most have chosen rather to believe that a man is the most important element on this planet rather than the creation as a whole… the creation of GOD, Himself!! Now we find ourselves at a pivotal moment in the course of history… will we continue to wait for our fears to become our reality by trusting in a lie/ that a man (a demigod) will rescue us away from what is WE created (a situation of monumental importance) or will we start to wake up to what our duty is… that is, fear (the type that leads to wisdom and not the selfish fear of individual eternal punishment) God (Life) and keep HIS commandments… the most important of them right now being those that would involve our having dominion over the earth and subduing it with rational thinking??? What WILL we do as mankind?

We consider Jews to be our spiritual older brothers and sisters.

*And yet you all continue to still not listen to those who are trying to tell you… Jesus was not God and he is dead, never to return again to rescue us away from what it is Christianity is creating. Do you not get that the Christian mindset dominates most of the world with about 33% of humankind under its grip? Thus, this would be the oppression that you are complaining of… Islam would be next with 21% of the world’s population under its teachings… that is 54% of the population that is in control by two religions that claim the Jews are their older “siblings/cousins” and yet… … both are choosing to ignore the Truths given in the religion and rather now consider it a game to see who can get the most recruits to their way of thinking… *

*If this continues, we are headed for trouble that will make today’s world seem like a cake walk (and it is for the time being, honestly). Jesus, a Jew, even confirmed Judaism to be where the Truth would be found. Read Matthew 5:17-19 and then read the blessings in Genesis 49 and tell me what name he confirmed in his Matthew 5:17-19 speech… was it Christ or was it Judah where it is said the people would be gathered to? Now listen carefully, in that same speech to a crowd of Jews, he says TO THEM that THEY are the light and salt of the earth, not Christians. He also says that the meek will inherit ??? … what is the word that comes next? Heaven? What earth are we giving to them? Behold, a new creation is spoken of in Isaiah, but that new creation will not come without a great price at this point… just like the destructive forces of the volcanoes bring forth renewed life… so will this new creation. Will you be one of the meek or will you ignore what I am saying and continue in your delusional path? *

*The way that Moses led out the children cannot be the same way that they are led out today for the knowledge of God is filling the earth… thus, it is up to you to accept that the Law of Nature IS God’s way… it is the unnatural that is the way of man and it is becoming our downfall rather than our deliverance. *

 

[simplynoone]

We don’t deny that but we also see another fulfillment in an individual. In other word, we believe the view you hold is true and that it points to something more. We point to (Isaiah 8:3-4)
Then I went to the prophetess and she conceived and bore a son. The LORD said to me: Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz, for before the child knows how to call his father or mother by name, the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be carried off by the king of Assyria.

I can’t help but to see that this is speaking of Christianity and that Assyria is representing Islam… and we can see this is becoming a reality. As you read on…

We see this individual as the first fulfillment (in addition to your view). The Jews who came to believe in Jesus remembered that some of God’s people taught that the events centered on Isaiah 7:14 still had another future fulfillment in mind. In other words, the birth of a son via a young woman that signaled the coming salvation of God’s faithful remanant and the destruction ot the faithless majority, was a prophecy pointing to a more important fulfillment in the future. Someday another son would come who would signal the availability of a more universal salvation for Israel.

you will see that the king of Judah is frustrated for he had asked the king of Assyria to help him and then found that they were oppressive in a different way… the child spoken of in Isaiah is not the hope of the Christians and it is not the hope of the Muslims… it is the hope of those who were given the Truth… and the child is named in Isaiah 8:8… Judah. What is the name again that is said in Genesis 49 to be the one that the people will be gathered to… the one that the brothers will praise? Understand… the Tanakh is not for the Gentiles… just as other cultures are mentioned in it, so are the Gentiles… that does not make it OUR hope except for one thing… that it is fulfilled FOR THE Jews as it states and not for us through power of suggestion.

***There is an East wind spoken of quite a bit in the Tanakh… this came in the parting of the Red Sea (only one of the many positive mentions of this “wind”)… I honestly am of the conclusion that this is of the beautiful philosophical religions that help to enlighten our minds (in the case of the Red Sea crossing I believe it to be both physical, but mentioned specifically for metaphorical purposes as well (I believe the latter because of it being mentioned in the testimonies ofthe prophets)… God uses them to enlighten HIS servants to the Truth of the Laws of God… ***

---

---

***Christianity has corrupted the truth far too much and for far too long. ***

That is just it. We believe what was declared in the past but believe that more was revealed. Everthing is possible for God, including Him directly entering time and space in the form of man. We give the credit to God. We don’t worship a man, but worship God who came as man.

So contradictive!! You say you believe that God could enter time and space in the form of man and yet you claim that you believe the Tanakh where it is said that He would not do this… He says He is NOT a man and that He does not change (read Amos 3:7 regarding your claim that you believe things are revealed and tell me, who is it said that he revealed His secrets to?) … but that you believe He did means you are not basing this believe on the Tanakh. Where are you basing it??? the power of suggestion… by man… thus, credit IS going to a man. That you say it is not is only vain lip service. In fact, even Jesus taught that God is a spirit and that those who worship Him worship Him in spirit AND IN TRUTH!!!

---

---

You all believe these supernatural occurrences and fail to realize that the Laws of Nature were the establishing of this creation… and who created it? GOD!!! The Laws of Nature ARE the ways of God… how foolish this above statement of yours is. I enjoy discussing with you, but I can’t lie that you have let man’s superstitious and mystical suggestions cloud your ability to think rationally… and that you can think rationally is evident… so why don’t you? Because you give man the credit rather than God (He gave you that ability and instead you have chosen to believe suggestions of other men).

If you don’t believe it, I understand why you would think it is idol worship. As we believe Jesus and the Father are one, we don’t believe it is idol worship. In our opinion we worship God Himself.

You have only proved my point above here in what I highlighted in red… that you can think rationally but have chosen rather to believe man over God. That you admit you understand why I would consider Christianity to be idolatry and yet still deny that it is indeed such is a very scary reality I am living in… because 33% of the world’s population is of this same mindset… that is, their mind is turned off to the Truth of THEIR VERY OWN ADMISSIONS!!

 

[simplynoone]

As we believe Jesus and the Father are one, we don’t believe it is idol worship. In our opinion we worship God Himself.

***If you are believing the above in the way that the RCC teaches (well, most of Christianity actually), then it is idol worship and in fact, if you worship Jesus as God, then you have missed the teachings of Jesus entirely. Jesus did not say that HE was God… He said, “I and my Father are one” and not “I am my Father.” Jeremiah told Israel to think of God as their Father since they were having a hard time obeying with thoughts of being betrothed to Him. In Exodus 4:22, 23 and Hosea 11:1 we can see that it is INDEED Israel who is the Son of God and thus, Jesus saying that He and His Father are one was not contradictory … any Jew could say it and it would be correct in the way that Jesus meant (which is different than us saying as just the created of God). ***

Now, we know that Jesus did not mean that He was THE SAME as God, His Father as is evident when it talks about only the Father knowing certain of things that the Son does not (this is specific)… therefore they are not the same person and do not share equal status. We know that the Immanuel, Judah, means God with us and therefore we get the more correct view than what you are dishing out. Israel is the Son of God… and Judaism (Gen 49) is the religion of the Servants of God (the Son… as they were told to think of Him as their Father)… and that Immanuel means God with us and is correlated with Judah is to say that this is the True religion of the Sons of God and that it is through them that God’s Word will rest. Fairly simple, really!