Lapell: That (and I would suspect these people kind of self-appointed themselves without consulting anyone), and often words from their parents or husband (boyfriend) pushing them to abort their baby or else…
On this last thought I can’t disagree. 
*Monkey, I am raising two young boys on my own. Surely that is enough said.
To expect Him to make me happy all the time would be to miss out on so many opportunities to learn about Him and grow. Everything that I go through is something that gives me another perspective and most of the time, the BEST way that we learn is when we go through difficult times. That is not to say that I want to fall on difficult times, but I definitely don’t expect to be happy ALL the time either. Happiness is a feeling and feelings are never goals for me… they are merely there to help me learn. *
That’s odd, considering.Your welcome!
I don’t disagree with you at all. By His covenant, God took the “creatures” He made and raised them to the status of divine offspring, divine children. Moses was the mediator and his role was the judge and liberator of Israel. The conditions of the covenant was that they must keep God’s Law and commandments. The covenant sign was the Passover.
*It was that they observe to do the commandments. To ME, that (observing to do) has made all the difference. It means to understand them… the importance of them. *
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*And perhaps you are right that the covenant sign was the passover, but I am curious (since I have not heard that before), do you have a reference for it? Again, only because I have not seen that and would be interested to be able to read it for myself.
Israel was spared by the blood of an unblemished sacrificial lamb painted on their door posts. The lamb died instead of the first-born, and was sacrificed so that the people could live. The first-born sons and daughters of God were “ransomed” or “redeemed”, and bought out of captivity and slavery.
*Each individual family was responsible for their own lamb. One lamb did not cover the whole of the family. There are too many things about this lamb that does not correlate with what it was Jesus is said to have been. Besides, the lamb had nothing to do with redeeming them… it was merely marking them as the israelites… And the only symbolism I see in that is Jeremiah 31:27… but that is physical. That blood on the door post had nothing to do with sins… but identification.
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The redemption for sin is to CONSIDER and then turn away from. Ezekiel 18:28. Know why considering is of importance? Isaiah 53:11
Later on Mt Sanai Israel swore to keep the covenant and Moses took the blood from the animals sacrificed and sprinkles it on the people, calling it “the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you” (Exodus 24:8). The blood was a symbol of family relations.
*Which does not contradict what I said above, right? Jeremiah 31:27 is the best I can find concerning a blood sacrifice and it about the house of Israel and some (as is evidenced in other parts of the Tanakh) of the house of Judah being spread out into the gene pool of the Gentiles. It is more consistent too. God NEVER would allow for one human being to be sacrificed literally for the sins of the world. That WAS the way of the heathens… NOT the Creator of mankind. I do not believe that and have found many verifications in the Tanakh that He is not like the other barbaric gods that the heathens were worshiping. *
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*Even in the story of Abraham and his son Isaac is evidence of this. God would not allow for Abraham to sacrifice his son, a living and aware human being. That is not MY Creator. Ezekiel 18:20-28 is clear that the God I serve is loving and equal. His ways are just… the god that would demand a human sacrifice (in the LITERAL sense… meaning actual violence and blood to be poured out for the payment of sins) is NOT a Creator. Each of us are responsible… and in the Ezekiel passage we are given the way out of “death” (death of awareness to the way of God’s ways) because we are learning. We did not enter this world with knowledge… thus, to say that we are expected to be perfect would be unfair… is THAT the god that you worship? *
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(Please, you seem nice… don’t be offended with my honesty in replying… if I were not honest and had to cater to keep everyone from being upset, then none of us could truly learn from each other shrugs)
I know Israel has a special place in God’s family and they are His chosen people. They are His pride and joy, and they were called out of Egypt to show the other nations the way to live as His children.
Thus… justified.
But they are not His only people. Israel is His first-born, but not His only son. God is the God of all the nations - and He revealed He would be a father to all the other nations, in the covenant with Abraham.
*Truly, I agree… just not in the way that Jesus covers the sins of the world… I think the NT was a test that was forecasted in Deuteronomy. *
Except when we get old this is no longer the case. Again, men are like grass that spring up and soon die. Even as we speak I’m sure you know we are not ‘growing’ but dying and headed towards the grave.
The point I was going to make is that we all have our share of sufferings in this world. I think it is impossible to take on these sufferings without any kind of hope in the world to come. You say you wish to live in the now, but that is not enough, God knows we can’t accept the now for He created us in His image; that is why so many choose to end it. Not that I condone suicide, but your views are not meaningful, just filled with nihilism, and we live in this kind of society to prove where that leads: abortion and euthanasia. Your eyes must be set on something that goes beyond this current reality for it to make sense, that is to say, Reality. And Jesus is that ultimate Reality.
Make no mistake, eternal hell is an aspect of the truth we have to face. I know many in today’s world would like to block their senses from it, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Also, is there any correlation for it in the Tanakh? I know that it is quite clear that God will not allow one person to die physically for another’s sins… nothing that contradicts that though. shrugssimplynoone;5258433:
* Eh… and here is where I disagree. I do not think that any one’s individual sins can be put on another. If she chooses to have the abortion, whether right or wrong depending on her own conscience, that is on her shoulders. Still, I do not think that is justification for someone to go and heap loads of guilt on her just to feel they are doing their moral duty. Again, if one is going to put in their 2 cents worth, they should also put out their hand out to help her (not just give her brochures of generic, impersonal places to go to, making it someone else’s burden… I believe that if one wants to help, they should put their whole heart into it and not just speak the words… otherwise, that makes it THEIR wrong). *
RobbyS;5258461:
You simply choose not to take into account Priests For Life messages and you appear to plainly put the blame on the Pro-Life movement no matter what. You are no better than the media who seem to enjoy blackening us. Generalizing is something you should be against if you wish to be just and fair… You don’t sound much like you are ready to even try
I agree. We believe faith in God is also necessary, because God is our Father (covenant). We don’t view him as owning us as slaves (contract).
As I said, the lamb died instead of the first-born, and was sacrificed so that the people could live. link to Ex 12:1-23,27 The first-born sons and daughters of God were “ransomed” or “redeemed”, and bought out of captivity and slavery. link to Ex 6:6-8*And perhaps you are right that the covenant sign was the passover, but I am curious (since I have not heard that before), do you have a reference for it? Again, only because I have not seen that and would be interested to be able to read it for myself.
*Each individual family was responsible for their own lamb. One lamb did not cover the whole of the family. There are too many things about this lamb that does not correlate with what it was Jesus is said to have been. Besides, the lamb had nothing to do with redeeming them… it was merely marking them as the israelites… And the only symbolism I see in that is Jeremiah 31:27… but that is physical. That blood on the door post had nothing to do with sins… but identification.
Moses predicted it all. He spoke of the curses and exile that would come - “if you do not hearken to the voice of the Lord.” link to Deut 28:15-68 Moses also promised, God would once more save them and show them mercy “if you and and your children return to the Lord, your God, and heed His voice.” The exile would bring them to repentence and then “The Lord, your God, will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, that you may love the Lord, your God with all your heart and all your soul and so may live” (Deut 30:1-6).
I agree that we must repent and follow God’s Law. The only way we can be perfect is through the power of God which he has poured out on us. He didn’t circumsize our heart and give us a new spirit from a far, but through himself by taking the form of man. And by rising from the dead he also, literally paves the way for us to “Return and Live” on the day of the Lord.
I’m not offended or upset, and I’m enjoying our conversation.
I think I see the correlation. But, there is a difference between laying down one’s life, and having it taken.
I’m not quite sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying anyone with one drop of Jewish blood belongs to the houses of Judah and Israel?
I don’t disagree with what you are saying and the reconciliation aspect is essential. But sacrifice often served as an act of renunciation and sorrow for sins. The “blood” of the animal symbolized the life of the one offering the sacrifice. Recognizing that his sins deserved death, the person offered the animal’s life in place of his own. I don’t understand how this aspect can be ignored if someone believes in the entire Law. Isn’t this a part of the brilliance in the law of God?
Yes the servant is identified with the people of Israel, however, verses 5 and 6 distinguish the Servant from Israel. We believe the servant is Jesus.
usccb.org/nab/bible/2maccabees/2maccabees7.htmERrr… do you mind to quote that… that is not in my Bible, so I do not know what it says. Thanks.
RobbyS;5258461:
You haven’t heard of the scapegoat God specifically asked the priests to lay hands on so that all the sins of the people of Israel be on the goat! It was done on God’s own request, you know! You may want to pay yourself for your own sins, but the penalty for sins is… Hell! Eternal damnation! Is it what you are ready to receive? You have no idea! Please remember that eternity lasts much longer than anything you ever experienced here on earth!
simplynoone;5265136:
and you appear to plainly put the blame on the Pro-Life movement no matter what.You simply choose not to take into account Priests For Life messages
*I am sorry Lapell. I may have missed a post or overlooked something in that you found important… or perhaps I misunderstood it? I am not sure. If you could clarify for me what this is you are speaking of, I would appreciate it.
*In all fairness, you brought this up as though it were considered a staple of the 10 commandments and I do not believe it is when it comes to life and death where the mother is concerned. Then it became an issue for several on here who say that the mother’s life being in danger was not the norm regarding the reasoning of most seeking to abort their pregnancy. I did not disagree, but at the same time, picketing them and/or handing out brochures of generic places along with words of judgment does not consititute obeying the 10 commandments.
I have not, though, put ALL blame on the pro-life movement and even clearly stated that I believe each person is responsible for their own actions; but in many of these cases, the people picketing & speaking out against the women having the abortions are using it as a chalk up for their moral duty being fulfilled… and if the helping hand is not there, it is actually nothing more than oppression and that becomes your (generic) sin.
I DO think that the abortions are so high, though, due to the ignorance of the pro life movement in general. Time to calm down the anger and hatred a notch… there is actually some REALLY good passages in the Torah concerning these things. Personally, I think that there are other alternatives to bring down the number of abortions without shaming or guilting anyone. I have encouraged y’all to search in Torah for what is said on such issues.*
You are no better than the media who seem to enjoy blackening us. Generalizing is something you should be against if you wish to be just and fair…
I am not speaking only against the Catholics. In actuality, if anyone is calm at the places I have been to, it has been the Catholics… still, the signs should be put away shrugs … public streets where innocent children are walking by is not the place for “can’t be missed” signs of torn up fetuses. Of course, I can not stop you all… you have the right to do so thus far. I am just suggesting to think more wisely about how to approach this whole issue since the pro life movement is not doing anything but angering more and more people. I am NOT saying to condone something you truly feel is wrong (and again, I do not condone abortion being used for birth control), but… well… Lapell… see below
You don’t sound much like you are ready to even try
*You say that I am not ready to even try… try what? No one here has bothered to even search for the references in the Torah that speak of women being impregnated outside of marriage and what the Law of God calls for. I promise, there is nothing that is being done today by pro-lifers to work toward such goals. Only fits being thrown… that is what most of the rest of the world sees… so, do you expect me to pat you all the back for a job not so well done… a job that makes many actually turn AWAY from God? I am only telling you honestly from the other side what people are going through and struggling with… considering we are being made well aware what it is Christianity’s complaints are.
By the way, I generalize in hopes that you will realize that I know there are very good people with VERY good intentions in Christianity. That my best friend’s husband is the founder of 2 of the biggest pro-life organizations in the USA means I am not oblivious on this issue from that side. I just think if it could be reassessed… what IS the end goal here? because it IS possible to make a change for the better… it’s just a matter of if that is REALLY what the pro life movement wants. If so, ahem… there is great wisdom in the Tanakh… rework the approach. That no one supporting the movement listens to me only tells me that the end goal is more about their own self rather than about the babies and their mothers.*
*If you CHOOSE to just be dying than that is what you will be doing. It is not my choice to be dying, but to be living. Monkey, I do not know what will happen tomorrow. God forbid, but I could die… what good am I doing though if I am so busy making preparations for something that is beyond my control (which is the supported view in the Tanakh). This is Life and this is what I know I have. I want to be here now, in the presence of God learning more about Him and hopefully contributing something constructive that I can leave behind. That is how I am thinking… what can I leave behind to better the lives of those around me in REAL ways (helping those who are in need, as I have been helped during difficult times, so that they in turn can help those around them… in whatever way is within my grasp to do so). I found nothing constructive for myself and especially for others by setting my sight on the grave. I guess it is just easier for me to not be pressured to work toward something selfish and rather be able to know that I am doing it from my heart… else, THEN it will lose meaning for me.
This Life makes less sense to me if what Christianity teaches is true. There are too many holes in that thinking and (though I am sure it is done in ignorance) our lives are nothing more than about selfishness… it becomes the accepted character trait of God. 
*
I agree. We believe faith in God is also necessary, because God is our Father (covenant). We don’t view him as owning us as slaves (contract).
As I said, the lamb died instead of the first-born, and was sacrificed so that the people could live. link to Ex 12:1-23,27 The first-born sons and daughters of God were “ransomed” or “redeemed”, and bought out of captivity and slavery. link to Ex 6:6-8
The Exodus was the one divine sign above all others that convinced the Israelites that they were God’s chosen people. And the Israelites were instructed to remember the first Passover by each year eating the Passover lamb’s “roasted flesh with unleavened bread.” That memory of God’s mighty deeds is the foundation of Israel’s identity as a nation and the basis for its hopes for the future. link to Ex 15:11-16
*It was not so their first born would not die at ALL though because they are all dead. It was so they would not die in their affliction (see my signature
My reward is not that I wont die… but that I will not die in my afflictions. I will die knowing that I TRULY lived the gift of life that He allowed me to have.
Anyway, the symbology in the passover lamb is that my house been rid of the illusions and in obeying to teach my children and them teaching their children etc, the seed of my family will continue on the earth in Truth and not under the oppression of those who would seek to keep us delusional. We will make choices in awareness and we will do so for the good of mankind. We, my family, will be a family that seeks the God of Israel and not a god that only kept us waiting for fantasies that will never come. *
* I am as well. You seem to have more knowledge of the front of your Bible than most. I wonder, then, how it is you have chosen what you have?*Oh no Lapell. The fear had nothing to do with my actions before God; it is not to be afraid of death, but rather, Life (the understanding of it). Punishment was not the fear at all. When the fear of God hit me… in a moment and unexpectedly… I become aware of a void that is TOO overwhelming for our finite minds to grasp (Genesis 1:2). I experienced this TERROR for 3 months. I didn’t want to be around anyone because there was no hiding it. I couldn’t eat or sleep… I was terrified to be by myself, but I could only be around those I was closest to because all I could do was stutter over my words and I would often just go into a daze (to those who I would be around, they said it was like I was staring at something terrifying but in reality I was staring at nothing… in the reality I was in, I was staring into the infinite). *
**It’s so great to have this verse here. So Job knew that he was in need of salvation in spite of his integrity. **
I beg you to forgive me, I misunderstood you… I thought you had meant to say something else.