Resurrection? Why?

[Lapell]

Psalm 104:29,30 says:
“Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.”

This is one example which can be interpreted as being refering indeed to the Resurrection at the latter day, simplynoone. A number of commentators would interpret it (because of the sequence of verses) as the verse 30 happening in time AFTER verse 29. Also, what do you make of Ezechiel’s vision of the bones coming back to life (after the nerves and skin (the muscles are not mentioned but they must were included, even though omitted!) were put back, of course)? Do you think Ezechiel was merely making this up?
…Have you ever received an inner mysterious vision while being awake, simplynoone?

 

[Lapell]

Also, beware of the teachers whom you receive propositions of (or is it “for”?) Biblical interpretation! Of course Christian pastors would probably seek for an interpretation as much authentic as possible most of the times… (although even some of them will in some cases come out with things that would seem foul ball, I am sorry to have to say this…)

 

[Lapell]

Also, beware of the teachers whom you receive propositions of (or is it “for”?) Biblical interpretation from! Of course Christian pastors would probably seek for an interpretation as much authentic as possible most of the times… (although even some of them will in some cases come out with things that would seem foul ball, I am sorry to have to say this…)

Agghhh! Me and my long phrases! :banghead::bounce:

 

[FCEGM]

* But all of these ideas I have gotten from the Tanakh. Why are you upset at me as though I made this up on my own? *

I am not “upset” with you; I simply choose not to continue the discussion as you attempt to put on me beliefs that are not mine - or Catholicism’s - through your misunderstanding of Christianity AND through your misapplication (your “ideas”) of passages of the Old Testament in reference to the beliefs of Christianity. You can quote the Scriptures 'til the cows come home, but it serves no good purpose if you don’t have a correct understanding of the Scriptures within the context of the the Church. (Saying “it has been admitted that one has to buy those beliefs blindly… on faith” - something which I never said - illustrates your incomprehension of the nature of Faith and of Catholicism.)

 

[Lapell]

*Psalm 28:5 … Meanwhile, you all fail to see that He is working even now… because you disregard the works of His “hands”…

Lapell:–And what makes you believe we do “disregard” the works of God’s hands, hey? *

FONT=“Comic Sans MS”]And He declared that His Son is Israel. Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1… but I do understand that this declaration is not suitable for the Church. Still, I think it was a wise choice made by God because through Israel, I have found the Truth.

Lapell: — **Yeah, actually Israel is God’s son… through God the Son, Jesus the Messiah, just like we Catholics and other Christians are. If we are sons of God, let’s act as His true sons would and should, O.K.? **

 

[ryanoneil]

*YOU tell me! You are all the ones who keep the daily reminder of a man on a cross, claiming it is a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. You completely negate your own belief and cut down your own styles of worship… not the Jewish People’s… they are not sacrificing and they do not worship the image of a man hanging on a cross claiming it as a sacrifice for their sins. Truly you are only condemning your own self. *

I can understand why you think that. My point (which you confirm) is that you no longer sacrifice according to one aspect of the Law (and rightly so).

As you know we believe the man Jesus was also divine. So, we believe God made the sacrifice for us. He provide the sacrifice for us, similair to what he did for Abraham and Issac. But the sacrifice is not the end. He also saved the first born son from death, and His blessings flow through the life of the son.

Why don’t you share with me what it is you especially enjoy about the above passage.

We believe that God’s revelation continued to where God actually has appeared to us face to face, instead of in a cloud. And that His law was brought to us by himself, the new Moses. We also believe God made himself son of David, so he is literally King of heaven and earth.

 

[Lapell]

The only reason why the Jews don’t sacrifice animals any more is that they haven’t rebuilt their Temple in Jerusalem. And the reasons they haven’t rebuilt it yet are: 1- that the site has been occupied for centuries by the famous golden-domed mosque; 2-that they were notallowed to as of yet.
And you probably read what happened when somebody attempted to put a stone somewhere so as to start building the foundation. Such an uproar that there would be no follow-up! (I don’t even remember if the man had dared to put his first stone at any rate…)

 

[Lapell]

*It is a parable. If you are going to take it literally, then you are saying we will all end up in the bosom of Abraham which is divided into sections where we can see each other. Weird. It is an allegory to teach the Truth. *

You asked me to elaborate on what I said, that Abraham was known for his hospitality, and that it should not be surprising to find him show hospitality to the poor Lazarus in the parable. What is there to elaborate on? Because we do misvoth on earth you think you would be dispensed from doing them in the world to come? If you really love God with your whole heart, your whole soul and your whole strength, how will it be a burden for you in the afterlife? Are you afraid of getting bored?
Also, what do you think is the point of this story if there is no afterlife?

 

[Lapell]

simplynoone, did you read my last series of posts (I think it’s 7 or 8) on Ben Masada’s thread “Behold, it was Leah!” ? It should have been either on this post or on another one of Ben’s, but anyhow…

 

[Lapell]

Actually, it’s from post # 263 to #273 included, which makes 11, not 7 0r 8!
Anyone interested can have a look there on “Behold, it was Leah!”, on its one-before-last past and the last one (at this time, I mean!)

 

[Lapell]

I rarely do advertisements, I don’t usually enjoy that but I take exception this time. So it’s my treat… Bye for today! God bless you all!:harp::grouphug::harp:

 

[simplynoone]

Surely you haven’t ever listened to the program Defending Life on EWTN, otherwise you know more exactly what these people have been doing there.
Also you must not have heard of Silent No More, a group of women who had an abortion and had gone through a lot of personal problems (psychological, physiological) which actually originated precisely from having had an abortion…
(Defending Life can be viewed on EWTN every Friday night at 10 p. m. (Eastern Time).)

You probably have listened to the version of the “facts” by the pro-abortion people, maybe from doctors who perform abortions…

*My best friend’s husband is the founder of the two most well known pro life movements in the states. I am fully aware of the pro-life’s views and even agree that abortion is mostly used as birth control and in my opinion, both subjectively and objectively, this is not wise. AT the same time, it does not negate that there ARE cases where the choice is made for reasons outside of simple “not wanting a baby” and I would feel the fool to not consider those in order to lump them all into one big “sinful” group.

Not everything is black and white and most know this subjectively, but they fail to think of it objectively… to consider another person’s view point. Let’s not forget the mother is also a life… and a life that is aware of attachments… meaning having more invested into life… it may sound cruel to you, but that is only because you have not considered what it is I am saying; pro-lifers generally have their one hardcore stance and give little consideration to the colors in between the black and white. *

 

[simplynoone]

If you are not a Jew, how come you read the TaNaKh? (That’s the Hebrew Bible, in Hebrew) You studied Hebrew and can read it fluently?
When I mention the TaNaKH, it’s to Jews… or to people who look like they are Jews. To them alone. But I usually read in a French (or English) version of the Bible (usually one with the Deuterocanonical Books, which were included in the Septuagint Bible (which BTW was put together even before the Hebrew Bible, did you know that?)

*I know less than even a little bit of a tiny fraction of Hebrew I call it the Tanakh because, even though I have to read the translated version, it is still the Hebrew Scriptures… aka the Tanakh. I can not bring myself to call it the Old Testament anymore because to me, it is the Living Word and not at all Old.

When I need clarification on something, I will go ask a Jew how they interpret a certain verse from the written Hebrew text; but in all honesty, I have done that rarely… I took hold of the promise in Proverbs 2:1-7 and believe me, it was a shock to find out that I would agree in a lot of places with the Jewish… in a few areas, the way that the Tanakh speaks to me is in a way that it is only speaking to a smaller portion of the Jewish… but that is okay… I take any of their perspectives and think on them… after all, it was their ancestors that the Scriptures originated from.

I do not so much worry about all the side details. I was searching for Truth and I found it in the so called “Old Testament” and in complete honesty, I was not biased either way… only that I knew what I had been taught did not make any sense to me. By the way, I do believe that the Tanakh was written mostly while the Jews were in Babylonian Captivity. I came to that idea because of Daniel 5 and only recently found out that many biblical historians agree with this. (really, that last bit did not have much to do with anything ).

As for the NT, I do believe that some* of Jesus’ teachings are authentic… meaning that I can find support for them in the Tanakh… but the story surrounding it, not so much. Paul… I have ALWAYS had much contention with his writings.

With the resurrection, I posted up on this thread already that I did find support for the resurrection of Israel IN THEIR land and also resurrection of awareness… but nothing as far as physical individual resurrection.

Also, you seem to take the verses quite absolutely, apart from their context, and the context of the whole Bible, which can be dangerous. You might interpret certain passages in ways that are not faithful to their meaning in the context… Also, certains passage meanings are made more precise by other passages elsewhere in the Bible, do you know that. Did you know that even for Jews there are some rules as to Scriptural interpretation which must be observed in order that the interpretation of a passage be considered authentic?

*Proverbs 2:1-7 is pretty clear, no? And thus far, the ONLY Jews to have opposed what I say are former Jews who have converted to Christianity (and they are HARSH!). I have been befriended by more than several of the Jewish people and so, I do not think that any of them are opposing what it is I say. I feel pretty comfortable in what I am being shown… though I will be the first to admit, I barely have even grazed the surface of knowledge contained in the Tanakh. I find I learn more when I speak with people of opposing views than with those who agree… thus, why I am here I guess. To try to understand and also, to learn even more. Challenge forces me (having the mind I have) to search. *

 

[M0nkey]

We might put this in another thread; abortion is an objective evil. Killing a child is never justifiable, plus, the life of the mother is hardly ever in danger, the fact is, it occurs in %0.01 of cases. These are not my opinions but facts. I know the culture is saturated with non-judgmental despotism but would you consider me compassionate if I saw a criminal rape and murder you while keeping quiet about it? After all, I can’t judge. And I have to empathize because they might be facing “unforeseeable circumstances.” No, you must call a crime for what it is; murder.

 

[simplynoone]

This is one example which can be interpreted as being refering indeed to the Resurrection at the latter day, simplynoone. A number of commentators would interpret it (because of the sequence of verses) as the verse 30 happening in time AFTER verse 29. Also, what do you make of Ezechiel’s vision of the bones coming back to life (after the nerves and skin (the muscles are not mentioned but they must were included, even though omitted!) were put back, of course)? Do you think Ezechiel was merely making this up?
…Have you ever received an inner mysterious vision while being awake, simplynoone?

*A volcanoe destroys to bring forth new life, no? There are volcanoes in the ocean that are even now creating new islands… you would not say that though the destruction happens before the new life appears that the new life is actually a resurrecting of the old life, right? Same way I view those verses.

Ezekiel’s vision, as it speaks to me, is one of Israel being resurrected as a Nation and being brought back into the land that God gave them… for carrying out the Law of God…now, considering politics… this will be a miracle to see other nations backing off and allowing them to do such.

And why the last question, Lapell?*

 

[simplynoone]

We might put this in another thread; abortion is an objective evil. Killing a child is never justifiable, plus, the life of the mother is hardly ever in danger, the fact is, it occurs in %0.01 of cases. These are not my opinions but facts. I know the culture is saturated with non-judgmental attitudes but would you consider me compassionate if I saw a criminal rape and murder you while keeping quiet about it? After all, I can’t judge. And I have to empathize because they might be facing “unforeseeable circumstances.” No, you must call a crime for what it is; murder.

*I do not mind to discuss it in this thread. In fact, I see it going hand in hand with it considering that I do not see physical resurrection of individuals spoken of in the Tanakh. But that there are some whose lives are in danger, I do not think that they are being judged fairly. Also, please enlighten me to the percentage of abortions that are taking place because of lack of support, shame (yes, MANY young women are shamed for getting pregnant outside of marriage regardless of if they abort or not… I know this first hand), etc. I am sorry, but due to the screwed up views of morality, I can understand why a lot of women resort to abortion in many cases that have little to do with just birth control purposes. I blame this on our society that is mostly influenced by Christians.

See if you can not find where it talks about a woman get impregnated outside of marriage in the Torah. You might be surprised that it does not at all line up with how women are treated in Christianity and if that Law was applied in today’s society, I KNOW it would lessen the number of abortions taking place. Instead, it seems that “moralists” would rather ignore the Biblical Law and go stand on a sidewalk with big disgusting signs to further shame, humiliate, and guilt the women… in public no less… as though she got her own self pregnant and is alone responsible for the fate of the child.

So many do not even consider in their self righteous attempts to right the wrongs of others. *

 

[M0nkey]

I blame this on our society that is mostly influenced by Christians.

I’m sorry for your lost; but, aren’t you the one being the moralist here? You are solemnly declaring it is Christianity that is responsible for this. This is a serious charge. In the issue of abortion, one must not get confused with what society thinks or what peer pressure says, it is objective in the fact that a fetus – need I use that word – is still a human being. Our utilitarian look at life has turned this into (1) if you are not useful to me, (2) you are useless and a nuisance. That’s not what makes us human, viz., by how well we can be used by others, but, by the mere fact that everyone from the tall to the short the big and the small is created in the image and likeness of God. This is an objective reality.
We can certainly look at the statistics. But first I think we need to start at the crux of the matter. First, what does it mean to be human? Does passing through the utero automagically make one human?

 

[simplynoone]

I’m sorry for your lost; but, aren’t you the one being the moralist here? You are solemnly declaring it is Christianity that is responsible for this. This is a serious charge. In the issue of abortion, one must not get confused with what society thinks or what peer pressure says, it is objective in the fact that a fetus – need I use that word – is still a human being.

*I am sure you have heard “Judge not lest you be judged,” right? Well, there are plenty who are willing to judge the women… so, I think their “sins” are covered… Thus, I am admitedly judging the party that is judging them. I do this because I DO understand the pressures of this religion called Christianity. I am not advocating abortion in cases where a woman’s life is not at risk, but I am also going to take into consideration why they may be doing it and in a lot of cases, it is not for the reasons that you are stating below: *

(1) if you are not useful to me, (2) you are useless and a nuisance.

By the way, I am not sure what you mean by “I am sorry for your loss…” I have never willingly aborted my children despite the price that it HAS cost me… neither do I regret my decisions and the pay off that has thus far been greater than the price it cost me… but I am “me”… meaning I have an enormous amount of determination that I am aware most do not possess and thus, I take this too into consideration.

 

[seraphime2008]

Simplynone

Sorry to abruptly join this discussion,
and for trying very hard to use English, though not even my 2nd language.
From the above discussion I conclude that you consider these things:

1-Israel is the promised Messiah as described in this verses of Isaiah 52:
11 Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I distribute to him very many, and he shall divide the spoils of the strong, because he hath delivered his soul unto death, and was reputed with the wicked: and he hath borne the sins of many, and hath prayed for the transgressors.

How is Israel be the One that described in the bold words? I don’t see any action done by Israel that come close to those words.

1. That we are doing service to God just to get the reward of happy eternal life after? And you consider that eternal life is too long that you’ll be bored having no reasons of purpose for a time frame?
   What I see from the old people around me, is that even their body are getting weak and obsolete, they still have the same young spirit, they still enjoy the same happy things that they love as long as they’re healthy, only the spirit sometimes become weakened because of the body, then they become rather worried, and thinking about having it enough. I supposed the spirit needs the body as much as the body should made alive by the spirit, but the spirit is not bound to any decay.I usually observe that the term “now” is sometimes incomprehensible, since “now” is always floating, that I consider eternal is “everlasting now”. We usually assume that eternity is also defined by time and space, when there’s perhaps a condition that I also don’t know for sure living earthy life, that is beyond time and space.
   Having said that, I always think that when I’m in love with someone or something, I would want to live forever. That’s what I feel about Jesus.
2. If all the spirits go back to God, wouldn’t He rejected the filthy spirit that didn’t do any good when they belong to any body on earth? Your explanation seems to regard spirit as water that will get back to the sea? Then it won’t have any distinctive character or at least will of its own. What…?
   The atheist think that we’re Christian or any other religions wouldn’t do any service to God if there weren’t any reward, that we’re wasting time on earth because we’re looking forward to something at the end. Wooow…the Christians at least pray that we wish the Kingdom of Heaven be on earth as on Heaven. We’re told to compete in doing good as long as we’re alive. So what about those evil spirited people, would they just rest in peace as dust after life? Or are we going to hear that evil is necessary to balance good?
3. You seem to suggesting people to just celebrate life without no responsibility as
   letting teenager to actively involve in their sexual drive in no marriage bond, so they may not be be feeling guilty or ashamed when they find out that they’re pregnant? And Christian are the ones that fail to make a just society? Aren’t you making too much a judgement over this? What is your point? Marriage is not important, neither is family?

 

[M0nkey]

I am sure you have heard “Judge not lest you be judged,” right?

But you are judging, in fact, we all have to decide at some level. Prudential judgment does not equate to condemnation. For example, when you choose to support abortion, are you not condemning those babies who do not even get a chance to see the light of day? Doesn’t it seem cruel to say no to the most fundamental right which is the right to life? I do not say that women who have abortions are “sinful” for we all are. What I am saying is that you are already judging and you have to whether you think it or not.

I do this because I DO understand the pressures of this religion called Christianity.

I believe these so called “pressures” have nothing to do with creed. Many of these mommies are more likely to be influenced by boyfriends, husbands, fathers, etc., so it’s not entirely a freedom of choice. Not to mention, when there is another being growing inside your womb, I’m certain that you know.

By the way, I am not sure what you mean by “I am sorry for your loss…”

It wasn’t clear from what you wrote, but, I’m sure the sacrifices you’ve made have paid off. Children are a gift from God, and women have the best part since they cooperate with God’s creative hand of bringing new life. This is extremely beautiful and powerful and I do appreciate this great gift women posses.