Resurrection? Why?

[reen12]

Hello all; I am happy to see the thread has resumed, although unhappy to find that my request has still not been answered.

As I stated earlier my quest is a better understanding of God. In this quest I would like to understand Christianity, but unable to, for I cannot crack the riddle of the Christian resurrection.

If I have to resort to pleading, well, I am pleading for someone to explain the logic behind the Christian resurrection. As I stated earlier I do not require biblical quotes, just plain simple logic.

Thank you

I think the matter presents like this:

Judaism is a faith that goes back millenia.
The God of Israel is held to be the Savior.
He forgives sins, extends mercy, and is
present to all of mankind.

Twenty centuries ago, two critical concepts were introduced by Christians.

1] that man is born in sin - due to the sin of Adam.

Each human being is said to be born in sin - sin that exists in his/her very being.

‘Ontological’ sin, which is termed ‘original sin’ - inherited because of the fault of Adam,
at the very beginning of human life. [thus: *‘original’ sin]

2] that only a divine being could save human beings
from this sin, in one’s very being.

The function of baptism is to rid a human being of this original sin.
To be washed clean through saving waters.​

Whereas Judaic thought awaits the messiah - remaining sure and certain
that the God of Israel offers both forgiveness and mercy,
Christian witness now proclaimed a messiah/savior, who is said to be a God/Man.
Both fully human and fully divine. The God of Israel was now to be acknowledged
as triune. [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three divine persons in one God.]

To certify that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed the savior,
he is proclaimed to have been raised from the dead.

Saul of Tarsus - who is the St. Paul of the Christian scriptures -
emphasied the critical function of the resurrection of Jesus.
[1 Corinthians 15: 14 & 17]

*If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain… *
If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

This thread, as I understand it, is to discuss the existence or non-existance
of personal resurrection. Christians proclaim a personal resurrection from the dead at
the return of Jesus of Nazareth. [The 2nd Coming.] As Jesus was raised,
so would human beings be raised.

Judaic thought accomodates both a view that there is no world to come -
where one will be raised from the dead - whereas the opposite view is also held.

jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Best,

reen12

 

[reen12]

Been further considering your question, robsully.

Hello all; I am happy to see the thread has resumed, although unhappy to find that my request has still not been answered.

As I stated earlier my quest is a better understanding of God. In this quest I would like to understand Christianity, but unable to, for I cannot crack the riddle of the Christian resurrection.

If I have to resort to pleading, well, I am pleading for someone to explain the logic behind the Christian resurrection. As I stated earlier I do not require biblical quotes, just plain simple logic.

Thank you

There are various rationales given for the ‘why’ of personal resurrection.
…that we will be trasformed, in an instant, to a glorified body.
That is - all of the limitations and the ills that the body experienced,
in earthly life - shall be removed in ‘…the twinkling of an eye…’

Well expressed by Saul of Tarsus, in the Christian tradition,
as Saul states what the reality will be when the trumpet sounds -
hearlding the return of Jesus in the Second Coming.

[From the Christian scriptures - a letter written by Saul of Tarsus to the people of Corinth. 1 Corinthians 15 ]

*I show you a mystery: *
*-We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, *
…in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye…
*-for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. *
*-For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. *

*So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, **then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, *
Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

50 years ago, I read a word by John Gunther, who’s son had died very early in life,
of brain cancer.

Gunther titled his work Death Be Not Proud. - redolent of
“O grave, where is thy victory?”

---

There is Judaic thought that states that the world to come awaits -
so that those, who had contributed to the repair of the world, would
participate in the beautiful conditions wrought by their labor.
I have also noted that sometimes tikkun olam [the repair of the world]
is also seen as helping to ‘perfect the world.’ More simply said, I suppose,

Leave the world a better place than you found it.

---

In Christian thought, I have read that God would not place within in us
a heart-rending, wistful desire to live eternally, without fulfiling that
profound yearning.

That’s all that I can think of, robsully.

Best wishes,

reen12

 

[M0nkey]

It is the fear of the judgments of God that is leading away from Truth. Hell’s existence doesn’t need to be argued, only the place of its existence needs to be recognized. If knowledge does not exist in death (Ecc 9:10) and the Judgements of God are part of bringing forth knowledge (Psalm 19), then Hell does not exist in death.

Do you believe God judges while on this earth? Because I certainly don’t see that, the wicked tend to flourish and become successful. Finally, let’s suppose you are right and there is no hell, well, I think I’m safe as far as my beliefs of hell are concerned, but, what if I’m right and you are wrong?

 

[OnlyJesus]

There is a veil that separates this life from the spirit life.

The dead know not anything…I believe that is in Eccles. The Body ( or tabernacle or temple ) goes into the ground and decays, turns back into dust from which it came. The body is dead, the decay of sin breaks it down and there in the ground or scattered as dust it remains until the Lord comes to raise it up on the Last Day…

The spirit returns to God who gave it. Eccles. So all those dead are alive in Christ on the other side of the veil.

By God’s supernatural power, the dead in Christ will rise first and those which are alive will be caught up and changed in the twinkling of an eye…changed into a glorified, sinless, eternal body and our spirit will be rejoined.

Use keywords to find the verses on biblegateway.com

 

[OnlyJesus]

In Jesus’ resurrection he defeated death, the grave and sin by his sinless Life. Jesus not only as God the Son, Jesus was Creator God, God himself made into man’s flesh to be tempted in the same manner as we are but he did it without sin ( search on Immanuel and Emmanuel in both testatments)

The entire point of the resurrection is to give a method for man to be reconnected and spend eternity with God as it was in the beginning. Sin separates man from God. God himself as Jesus came as our Saviour and became the bridge back to God thru repentance and belief in Jesus Christ’s finished work on the cross.

 

[simplynoone]

Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, in these words prophesy to them (to the shepherds): Thus says the Lord GOD: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who have been pasturing themselves! Should not shepherds, rather, pasture sheep? (Ezek 34:2)

Hi simplynoone!

I don’t need to call them out because Ezekiel did. The shepherds of Israel is refering to the leaders of the people. Not their oppressors or allies. It is saying that the people were being neglected and were following false prophets. Their teachers were only seeking advantage for them selves.

Well, here ryanoneil, you have somewhat backed me into a wall depending on how I should take this.

If you are referring to the political leaders, I can understand and almost agree. It is odd to me that the Temple Mount in which the abomination of desolation sits is being guarded AGAINST the People in their own land and the Christians are being allowed to steal the sheep via their missionaries of replacement theology.

I can’t think of anything else you would be referring to. It is good to know that you care about the well-being of the People that is of God as well. It just begs the question though, why are you in the organization that is trying to steal their sheep as though a demigod could REALLY replace their God who is the Salvation of Jacob; the God of Israel?

Well, anyway ~ they are saved already. Isaiah testifies to this quite beautifully. They are saved by the God of the People. The promise is rock solid and sealed in the Word; the People. It isn’t at all a promise that was broken, to be replaced by something ahem new, but it stands an everlasting witness of the counsel of God.

Isaiah 49: 24-26

And the seed of Israel is already justified.

Isaiah 45:16-25 … that’d be in the LORD that they are justified and the Word of the LORD is never claimed to be of the NT, but rather the Word of the LORD is the Tanakh and the testimony is established in Jacob (never says Gentiles or certainly never says Christians).

I only say this because it should probably be noted that much of what Christians try to pull out to use against the Jewish is something they have only ever read through Power of Suggestion. Get rid of the magician’s trick that was played on your mind to go back and read these testimonies as they actually are written. Pulling one thing out of context is not to your benefit. After all, it is clear, even in your own NT that the Gentiles are being given the opportunity to judge their ownselves since they reject the judgments that are of God.

I am sure you are aware of the story of the two mothers who came before King Solomon, no? Both had delivered babies and yet there was only one baby that survived. Each woman claimed that she was the mother of the living baby. Wise King Solomon decided that the best course of action was to let the mothers be their own witness to the Truth… thus, he called to have the living baby cut in half, telling them that they each could have portion.

One woman was in such terrors at the thought of her baby being cut in half that she insisted the other woman take the Baby because she could not stand the thought of the baby being dead. The other woman was fine with the living Baby being cut in half… in other words, she didn’t mind that the baby was dead, so long as she got a portion of it regardless that it would be dead (in other words, jealousy was in her heart).

Hey, I wonder… doesn’t that sound an alot like the story of Jesus? Wasn’t it the Gentiles that mocked him; beat him; and killed him? At least that is what the NT testifies to being the case. It wasn’t the Jewish. They only, according to the testament Christianity claims is the NEW testament (replacement of the other testament given that it is called Old), handed him over. ahem A King worth their weight in Gold is very wise King. The LORD God of Israel is just such a King … and He is eternal… meaning, there is never any wondering when He will return because we are always in His presence. And according to His Word, all the seed of Israel is justified.

This is why we really should be using caution in who and how we are judging the People, Israel, based on the Word of God that He brought forth VIA His People, the Jewish. Personally, I found great Beauty and Light through them and can’t think of any reason why it is so many want to either kill them or replace them or convert them for it is through them that we are even able to know (to be aware of) God.

 

[simplynoone]

Hi simplynoone! I guess I just don’t understand. This doesn’t seem like speculation and personal selfish desire.

Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the shades arise and praise you? Selah Is your love proclaimed in the grave, your fidelity in the tomb? Are your marvels declared in the darkness, your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion? (Ps 88:11-13) link to Ps 88

This is not a dead person speaking because after all, there is not knowledge when one is dead. This is an allegorical poem… of what it feels like to the Jewish, the Living, when they are in Diaspora, which is among the dead. Ecc 9:10 If one is dead, they DO not have knowledge. God is the God of the Living and not the God of the dead.

So, this is clearly a Living Person (a Jew) living among the dead (in Diaspora) and pleading to be brought back to the Land of the Living.

Thus no tree may grow lofty in stature or raise its crest among the clouds; no tree fed by water may stand by itself in its loftiness. For all of them are destined for death, for the land below, For the company of mortals, those who go down into the pit. (Ezek 31:14)

Do you not know that the prophets spoke proverbially?

I perceive you to have a different mind in that head of yours. But seek what it is written in Proverbs 2:1-7 without the stipulations … it is the stipulations that you have in your mind that keep you from understanding. The Living KNOW that they will die… the dead do not understand this. This is testified of in Ecclesiastes as well.

If hell, the judgment of God, is such a bad place to be, then why is it that God is with the ones He is bringing through it (Zech 13:9)? Isa 53:11 … To reject the judgment of God is to reject being taught from the “mouth” of God, ya know.

I would rather walk through hell to know God than to be in heaven and yet ignorant to the Truth. And believe me, He has been making me eat my own words and I couldn’t be more thankful.

Deut 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

And as it states in Isaiah 28 … it is a strange act of God. I rarely try to explain this because unless knows from having been there or from being there, they usually will just reject it; but I had the urge to share it in this moment.

"The LORD puts to death and gives life; he casts down to the nether world; he raises up again. (1 Sam 2:6)

**Read that whole song! I love the story of Hannah… it is quite personally really. **

Do you really NOT see what I am telling you? THERE IS NOT KNOWLEDGE IN DEATH… PERIOD. These are allegorical of what it is like for the LIVING, God’s People, to be in Diaspora (living AMONG the dead)… it is as though they are living in a tomb amongst the dead. You are being compared to the dead and rightfully so because you are unaware that you are even in the kingdom of God… in His presence… at this moment; that THIS is Life. You are waiting for something and yet, because you don’t understand the Light, you fail to realize you have it … LIFE.

The nether world below is all astir preparing for your coming; It awakens the shades to greet you, all the leaders of the earth; It has the kings of all nations rise from their thrones. All of them speak out and say to you, "You too have become weak like us, you are the same as we. (Isa 14:9-10)

**Again, you are pulling this out of context to fit a preconceived idea given to you by man. You are IN Life right now and tell me of ONE thing that YOU your ownself can testify to that would support what you are claiming with these passages. ONE THING. **

You can’t. It is as it is written and even though it is before the face of the whole world, you can’t testify to it because you are not aware of Life (yet?).

**Again, take the guidance of Proverbs 2:1-7 and allow yourself to go through the Fire for the sake of Truth in and of itself (Zechariah 13:9) and you will be amazed by the Light that comes from the Truth… Deut 4:12. **

**As I said, I don’t typically answer to others the way I do with you. I don’t at all perceive you to be ignorant… just unaware; and certainly, from what I can know via your posts, you seem to have a very kind, honest, and genuine disposition about you. Of course, only you can really know for sure. **

I do enjoy reading your replies and hope you will continue to share your thoughts with us.

 

[simplynoone]

I credit any poetic gift to my Irish ancestry. Am working on a children’s book
on Reb Zusia, and doing the drawings as well.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/Untitled-1.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/Rebzusiaholdingabook5d.jpg

I love Judaic thought, simplynoone. Where dogma seems a curiosity,
and many opinions, on a given reality, are accomodated.
Where actions are stressed, rather than opining.
To fulfill the mizvoth, with a quiet mind, seems wise to me.
To trust Hashem in whatever the reality to come.

Kindest regards,

reen12

Quite right what you have stated here. I also love that Judaism allows for and even further encourages discussions that are based on questioning ourselves and the world around us… never a better way to learn than to state what it is you are holding to in order to have it challenged. I have been quite encouraged to do so by those who are Jewish which is the greatest feeling to me… to be encouraged in something that comes natural to me anyway.

By the way, I am of Irish ancestory as well. And your drawings speak in that same peaceful beauty that is in your words. Quite gorgeous… I feel blessed that you would share your mind on this thread. Thank you.

 

[simplynoone]

Do you believe God judges while on this earth? Because I certainly don’t see that, the wicked tend to flourish and become successful. Finally, let’s suppose you are right and there is no hell, well, I think I’m safe as far as my beliefs of hell are concerned, but, what if I’m right and you are wrong?

Well, first of all, M0nkey, I am not saying there is not a hell… in fact, not only do I know it exists, but I believe!d! in hell.

I say I believed in Hell because it is where I heard the Voice of God precisely as testified in the Tanakh. Deut 4:12. It really is strange and quite amazing.

Yes, I believe that God judges on this earth… where else WILL He judge? It certainly will not be in death because as it states in Ecclesiastes 9:10, there is no knowledge in the dead.

If one really wants to know God, hell can not stand in their way… In fact, if it is the knowledge of God and His ways that you really want, it is hell that you WILL have to be willing to walk through. Zech 13:9; Isa 53:11

As far as those who are not being judged, well… how do you know? What is your perception of these things? Meaning, what do you constitute being “judgment?”

Jeremiah 49: 12 For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink of it.

Ezekiel 20: 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.

18But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;

As I read the threads on this forum, it is quite clear that idols are held to because it is thought they will help you to escape the judgment of God, no?

I would not so much worry about whether other people are being judged or not until I first am willing to accept to know the judgments of God. If you have to ask whether or not God judges here on earth (as though it would be somewhere else?), then it is safe to say that you have not accepted the judgments of God your ownself.

 

[simplynoone]

There is a veil that separates this life from the spirit life.

The dead know not anything…I believe that is in Eccles. The Body ( or tabernacle or temple ) goes into the ground and decays, turns back into dust from which it came. The body is dead, the decay of sin breaks it down and there in the ground or scattered as dust it remains until the Lord comes to raise it up on the Last Day…

So, if I testify to the Truth, to the Light, that I have been resurrected from the dead to Life, does that mean it is the Last Day for YOU or for ME or for all of us, Life in general? What do you think? If one is risen to Life on the Last Day, is that Day continuous and if so, how? Is it spiritual speech that you are speaking to here above or is it to man’s idea of what should be that you are speaking to? Just curious.

The spirit returns to God who gave it. Eccles. So all those dead are alive in Christ on the other side of the veil.

Ouch… you have just clearly stated the Greek idea of the messiah is one that leads to death (which I would concur with what you have stated concerning the Greek Messiah).

The God of Israel that Jesus testified to is the God of the Living and not the God of the Dead.

By God’s supernatural power, the dead in Christ will rise first and those which are alive will be caught up and changed in the twinkling of an eye…changed into a glorified, sinless, eternal body and our spirit will be rejoined.

God does not have supernatural powers. You are trying to characterize Him to the realm of comic book fantasies. Deut 4:12 … He is quite Natural in His ways.

Use keywords to find the verses on biblegateway.com

Perhaps a good keyword to start with would be Judgment and Resurrect?? …And might I add the challenge to search the Tanakh (oops… what Christians refer to as the Old Testament) rather than the NT… just for fun.

Surely you will have no problem to do such… and to read them all… and then come back to share your findings with us, right? I would love to hear what you come up with.

 

[simplynoone]

In Jesus’ resurrection he defeated death, the grave and sin by his sinless Life.

For who exactly? Not sure when the last time was that you have chose to look around you to see that people are dying daily, “sinning” daily, and it’s been almost 2,000 years since Jesus supposedly resurrected with, according to the Christians, the promise to come and rescue you all and … well, what am I missing here that you all are claiming to be Truth? Surely the Truth would stand on your behalf, no? Because the reality is, what you are claiming as truth is not at all testifying on your behalf. If Jesus is alive, 1) where is he? 2) are you sure you would even recognize him?

Jesus not only as God the Son, Jesus was Creator God, God himself made into man’s flesh to be tempted in the same manner as we are but he did it without sin ( search on Immanuel and Emmanuel in both testatments)

NOWHERE did Jesus claim to be God, the Son. He was Jewish. He NEVER would have and NEVER did testify to the mythological views of the Greek. Jewish … Greek. They are NOT compatible in their idealogies. One faces reality AS IT IS and the latter imagines that his desires are reality.

And what are classifying as sin? One can only deny temptations when one has a reason to deny them… that comes by way of experience. Huh… that MUST be the reason why Jesus did not cast a stone his own self, no?

The entire point of the resurrection is to give a method for man to be reconnected and spend eternity with God as it was in the beginning.

God is Eternal Life. That we have a beginning only testifies to the fact that we will never be God, Eternal Life.

Besides, I don’t want to go back to my beginning. I was in ignorance then. Why would I want to go back to ignorance? I love Life and being aware of His ways and being able to continue growing in that knowledge. Do you remember the day you were born? Neither do I. Why would you seek to go back to that state?

Sin separates man from God. God himself as Jesus came as our Saviour and became the bridge back to God thru repentance and belief in Jesus Christ’s finished work on the cross.

If the work of your demigod was finished on the cross, mind explaining to me why you are even still here?

I think if this is truth you are stating, your god is playing games with you. Else, you must know the answer as to why you have been thrown into a waiting room since there is no other reason for your existence given that the work is finished.

 

[M0nkey]

Hell and the wrath of God does not exist on this earth; this is made clear by many who live perfectly good lives and yet do not believe. Do you think you were in hell because you did not believe as you do know? Clearly you did not suffer eternal punishment, which is not the real Gehenna that Jesus tells us about, for it is only through the mercy of God that He still wills your existence so you may come to know the truth that Jesus Christ loves you and has died for your sins. Hell is real place, is not something abstract or whatever you want it to be, it is a place of eternal suffering apart from the living God. I believe it was St. Faustina who once had a vision and said that many who end in hell did not believe that hell could exist.

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi simplynoone! I think you are misunderstanding me. I don’t believe Ezekiel is talking about our time. He is talking to his fellow countrymen, reproaching much of Israel for it’s past and present sins. He is predicting the destruction of Jerusalem and and their exile.

Well, here ryanoneil, you have somewhat backed me into a wall depending on how I should take this.

If you are referring to the political leaders, I can understand and almost agree. It is odd to me that the Temple Mount in which the abomination of desolation sits is being guarded AGAINST the People in their own land and the Christians are being allowed to steal the sheep via their missionaries of replacement theology.

I can’t think of anything else you would be referring to. It is good to know that you care about the well-being of the People that is of God as well. It just begs the question though, why are you in the organization that is trying to steal their sheep as though a demigod could REALLY replace their God who is the Salvation of Jacob; the God of Israel?

We are not trying to steal anyone and we believe that the Father and the Son are ONE. When Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, Ezekiel was vindicated before his countrymen who thought it would never happen. After that time, Ezekiel’s message changed to the promise of salvation in a new covenant. The Tenakh points and leads up to the new covenant and salvation. The NT is the account of it’s arrival during the advent of Jesus.

 

[simplynoone]

Hell and the wrath of God does not exist on this earth; this is made clear by many who live perfectly good lives and yet do not believe.

Sorry, but this is based on what you think the Judgment of God is. It is really quite natural. It is the Law of Cause and Effect.

The Word says to veer neither to the Right neither to the Left, but to walk in the way of God. Tell me, how do you think one accomplishes this? What do you think is meant by the right or the left? How do you know the Voice of God? Have you heard it? What did it sound like?

Do you think you were in hell because you did not believe as you do know?

To encourage me to choose to seek understanding God’s ways. That is why I believe I was put in hell. If one is handed everything on a silver platter, they never have the need to “till the land”… and if one never tills the land, the fruit will not grow. Someone has to be tilling the land, ya know. That is what has been given to me in this Life to do. And really, I am of the mind that if the fruit is just handed to me, it will not taste as sweet anyway. So, I do not see hell as something to fear… it is what I already know. And that you are considering it the “wrath of God” would be offensive to me if I didn’t know better… fortunately I do, though, understand that you have not the eyes to see the Light that I am telling you.

Why don’t you explain to me… if “hell” is so bad, then why is it this is where the Voice of God is heard? Deut 4:12 … Why is that God is with those He is bringing through the fire if it is REALLY the “wrath of God”? Zech 13:9

Clearly you did not suffer eternal punishment, which is not the real Gehenna that Jesus tells us about, for it is only through the mercy of God that He still wills your existence so you may come to know the truth that Jesus Christ loves you and has died for your sins.

Of course, I have not suffered eternal punishment. I have not done anything to deserve such and can’t think of ANYONE who has. Not to mention, ONLY God is Eternal Life.

And it is not through the mercy of God that I exist. It is the through the mercy of God that I have REASON to exist and it because of the Grace of God that I can see this Reason. And that Jesus loves me and died for my sins is not at all Truth. Jesus does not know me because Jesus died almost 2,000 years before I came into existence. How can you love someone you do not know? You can’t. I may love him for the teachings that he brought (you know, the ones that most think are anti-Jewish), but Jesus could not have loved someone who was not even in existence at the time he walked the earth.

And no… he did not die for my sins. You won’t succeed to put me under that yoke of oppression. Jesus died because he was Jewish; an enlightened one at that. I could not have been the cause for his death because I DID NOT EXIST … AND THUS, COULD NOT HAVE SINNED so that his death could be claimed as my fault.

Besides, I am justified before God. I have stated my cause and trust God thoroughly so that I don’t need to have another man stand in my place before God. I am willing to do it my ownself. He is the Creator of Life and what He made He called good… that includes me.

Hell is real place, is not something abstract or whatever you want it to be, it is a place of eternal suffering apart from the living God.

I did not say that Hell was not real. I just said that it can not exist in death for in death there is not knowledge. Ecc 9:10. Do you argue with the Word of the LORD; the Word you claim is the foundation of your beliefs?

I believe it was St. Faustina who once had a vision and said that many who end in hell did not believe that hell could exist.

It is truth. You don’t believe it exists, do you? I have hope you can understand that it does… just open your eyes. If it exists, then it exists in Life because this is God’s creation… where Life is. Death is the end of Life and there is NO work, NOR device, NOR knowledge, NOR wisdom in the grave to which you go. Ecclesiastes 9

The Living know they will die.

All you know is what you have experienced in Life… why then do you seek death rather than paying attention to what you DO know is Truth via what you have experienced? You can not claim that you know something is based on truth that you have not actually experienced. There is not one person alive today who can say they know anything exists in death. It is impossible. If you must see it written to believe that I am speaking Truth, again, I refer you to Ecclesiastes 9:10.

 

[simplynoone]

Hi simplynoone! I think you are misunderstanding me. I don’t believe Ezekiel is talking about our time. He is talking to his fellow countrymen, reproaching much of Israel for it’s past and present sins. He is predicting the destruction of Jerusalem and and their exile.

Ezekiel’s words were of understanding. He wasn’t so much predicting the exile of the Jewish as he was understanding it. Same thing with Jesus. Diaspora will always be a part of the Jewish Life … it is the way to bring forth Light to the Peoples of the world. It was Egypt first, then the Babylonians, and now the Gentiles. Upon return, Israel is always justified and the nations have judged their ownselves through their judging Israel. The other Nations will be brought to an end, but not Israel. So long as the Jewish exist, so does mankind exist upon the earth.

Jesus did not exist to bring forth judgment to Israel just as Ezekiel did not … they were sent to judge the other peoples who reject the judgment of God and the way it is done is so brilliant because the other nations’ people always condemn their ownselves in their judgments of Israel.

That’s Life.

We are not trying to steal anyone and we believe that the Father and the Son are ONE.

See what I mean by the brilliance of the WORD of the LORD via His People. Jesus knew exactly who it is that is the Son of God (which, yes, he was a part of). He confirmed this knowledge in Matthew 5:17-19. He was well aware of what is written in Exodus 4:22,23 and Hebrews 11:1,9.

So, when you judge the Son (or any part therein) negatively and then claim the Father and the Son are one, aren’t you judging God really? OUCH!

When Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, Ezekiel was vindicated before his countrymen who thought it would never happen. After that time, Ezekiel’s message changed to the promise of salvation in a new covenant. The Tenakh points and leads up to the new covenant and salvation. The NT is the account of it’s arrival during the advent of Jesus.

Sorry… the New Covenant had already been in effect by the time Jesus was born. How else do you think the Tanakh came to be? It is the Word that came forth from the People, Israel… because the Laws were understood in their minds becoming a PART of them rather than being something they did begrudgingly. Beauty, such as the Tanakh, does NOT come forth from hearts of stone ya know.

Jesus was born under the New Covenant that was ALREADY in effect… he was not the beginning of it.

 

[ryanoneil]

This is not a dead person speaking because after all, there is not knowledge when one is dead. This is an allegorical poem… of what it feels like to the Jewish, the Living, when they are in Diaspora, which is among the dead. Ecc 9:10 If one is dead, they DO not have knowledge. God is the God of the Living and not the God of the dead.

I don’t know if you’ve ever read Mt 22:23-33, but Jesus spoke of the resurrection by citing (Ex 3:6) God revealed himself to Moses in the burnig bush as the God of the long-deceased patriarchs. Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were still alive with God and their ongoing presence with His is the precondition for their resurrection in the future.

So, this is clearly a Living Person (a Jew) living among the dead (in Diaspora) and pleading to be brought back to the Land of the Living.

I agree this a living person and very well might be in the Diaspora. (I’m ignorant on that point). I’ll take your word for it and agree you’re right about how he feels in exile, but the psalmist is praying for rescue from the alienation of approaching death. He says “my life draws near to Sheol.” I don’t understand how Sheol is equated with exile if he is already in exile.

I think the key is Sheol, where one is cut off from God, as opposed to Abraham’s bosom.

Do you not know that the prophets spoke proverbially?

I perceive you to have a different mind in that head of yours. But seek what it is written in Proverbs 2:1-7 without the stipulations … it is the stipulations that you have in your mind that keep you from understanding. The Living KNOW that they will die… the dead do not understand this. This is testified of in Ecclesiastes as well.

I agree that the prophets speak proverbially, but there is not only one meaning. You could say that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and other patriarchs being “gathered to their people” after death is proverbially. You could also say that wicked (dead) are cut off from their people, but why make the distinction? The destination is the same by your account.

If hell, the judgment of God, is such a bad place to be, then why is it that God is with the ones He is bringing through it (Zech 13:9)? Isa 53:11 … To reject the judgment of God is to reject being taught from the “mouth” of God, ya know.

Because God is mercyfull. If I’m not mistaken, one school in Judaism (?) believed there were three different groups at Judgment Day - thoroughly righteous people, thoroughly wicked people, and people in between. The first go straight to everlasting life; the second go to Sheol the third go to Sheol and squeal then rise again. This fits with Daniel 12:2.

Catholics understand this third group as going to Purgatory wich a state of purification before entering heaven.

"The LORD puts to death and gives life; he casts down to the nether world; he raises up again. (1 Sam 2:6)

**Read that whole song! I love the story of Hannah… it is quite personally really. **

Yes! Thanks be to God.

Do you really NOT see what I am telling you? THERE IS NOT KNOWLEDGE IN DEATH… PERIOD. These are allegorical of what it is like for the LIVING, God’s People, to be in Diaspora (living AMONG the dead)… it is as though they are living in a tomb amongst the dead. You are being compared to the dead and rightfully so because you are unaware that you are even in the kingdom of God… in His presence… at this moment; that THIS is Life. You are waiting for something and yet, because you don’t understand the Light, you fail to realize you have it … LIFE.

I realize we are in the kingdom of God. The one’s who are unaware don’t reconize his Lordship. You could say that the utopia of Ezekiel is allegorical and you would be right, but there is not only one meaning. Just because we hope for the utopia after death doesn’t mean we should ignore the present one.

**Again, you are pulling this out of context to fit a preconceived idea given to you by man. You are IN Life right now and tell me of ONE thing that YOU your ownself can testify to that would support what you are claiming with these passages. ONE THING. **

I don’t know what you mean. Is this only talking about the defeat of nations? Is it not also referring to the death of King Ahaz?

**As I said, I don’t typically answer to others the way I do with you. I don’t at all perceive you to be ignorant… just unaware; and certainly, from what I can know via your posts, you seem to have a very kind, honest, and genuine disposition about you. Of course, only you can really know for sure. **

I do enjoy reading your replies and hope you will continue to share your thoughts with us.

Thank you for the compliment and the kind words. I enjoy talking with you also.

Going back to the word’s of Jesus in Mt 22, I believe that God truely is the God of the living and not the dead. Both in this life and the next.

 

[M0nkey]

Sorry, but this is based on what you think the Judgment of God is. It is really quite natural. It is the Law of Cause and Effect.

Your law of cause and effect fails in the fact that it doesn’t stand the test of ethics, there are many people who do great evil and still find themselves quite successful. When are you going to come out and at least acknowledge that this is true?

Besides, I am justified before God. I have stated my cause and trust God thoroughly so that I don’t need to have another man stand in my place before God. I am willing to do it my ownself. He is the Creator of Life and what He made He called good… that includes me.

Justification by self alone does not follow in the fact that God alone justifies, not you.

:thumbsup:It is truth. You don’t believe it exists, do you? I have hope you can understand that it does… just open your eyes. If it exists, then it exists in Life because this is God’s creation… where Life is. Death is the end of Life and there is NO work, NOR device, NOR knowledge, NOR wisdom in the grave to which you go.

Of course you are only being disingenuous, hell is a place of eternal punishment, no such thing even remotely exists here on earth. This means that you do not accept nor believe in hell. That God will never do that to anyone is simply a preconceive notion of some god that you have. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is unlike any god.

 

[simplynoone]

I don’t know if you’ve ever read Mt 22:23-33, but Jesus spoke of the resurrection by citing (Ex 3:6) God revealed himself to Moses in the burnig bush as the God of the long-deceased patriarchs. Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were still alive with God and their ongoing presence with His is the precondition for their resurrection in the future.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Let’s see if you can pick out what astonished the Sadducees after reading the following passages paying attention to what I highlighted in red above…

Read Deuteronomy 4:12

Zechariah 13:9

Matthew 12:36

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

As Jesus testified of, so can I… “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.”

In Ecclesiastes it says the Living KNOW that they will die.

If the words of the Tanakh are words of Life, then why is death the language so many use to explain the words of Life?

One who is resurrected to Life must testify to Life, no?

 

[simplynoone]

I agree this a living person and very well might be in the Diaspora. (I’m ignorant on that point). I’ll take your word for it and agree you’re right about how he feels in exile, but the psalmist is praying for rescue from the alienation of approaching death. He says “my life draws near to Sheol.” I don’t understand how Sheol is equated with exile if he is already in exile.

Imagine being resurrected spiritually to Life … only to find that you are living among the dead. That does become a desperate cry of the heart to be resurrected physically to the Land of the Living. To be among those who are living in the Light of Truth.

But, I can understand why it is this way, for as Jesus said, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”

The above has given a whole new meaning of “give us this day our daily bread” to me as well and in fact, God has done just this for me in my own personal life. That daily bread is like nourishment to my soul.

It is why salvation is of the Jews and why they are of such importance to us in the world… and furthermore, why they should be given their land wholly, for its purpose is the blessing of all of us.

I think the key is Sheol, where one is cut off from God, as opposed to Abraham’s bosom.

God IS Life and thus, anyone having breath in their lungs is not “cut off” from God Isa 45:14,15… only the awareness and for purpose. (learning to live by the word that proceedeth from the mouth of God… proverbs 2:1-7 holds the keys for this).

I agree that the prophets speak proverbially, but there is not only one meaning.

To whomever it is speaking directly to, it does; else Jesus would not have thought it important to say, “Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.”

You could say that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and other patriarchs being “gathered to their people” after death is proverbially. You could also say that wicked (dead) are cut off from their people, but why make the distinction? The destination is the same by your account.

It is the Word of their People that they were gathered to… their Life is written in the account of THEIR people… their legacy lives on as a testimony of the spirit of the Jewish People.

It does not negate that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as well as Moses are no longer living on this earth … other than their legacy; the testament to their People.

This is Life… do you see them here? They live through their People. It is not mystical and truly, there is nothing that you know that can testify that they will resurrect physically from the graves to again walk the earth. I am speaking to Life here and not imagination.

Because God is mercyfull. If I’m not mistaken, one school in Judaism (?) believed there were three different groups at Judgment Day - thoroughly righteous people, thoroughly wicked people, and people in between. The first go straight to everlasting life; the second go to Sheol the third go to Sheol and squeal then rise again. This fits with Daniel 12:2. Catholics understand this third group as going to Purgatory wich a state of purification before entering heaven.

Do you trust God, Ryanoneil? If so, then why is this speculation so important for you? Proverbs 2:1-7… if you must understand, then cry out for HIS understanding. If you cry out, not to man and his speculations, but rather to God… so that He will teach you from His own “mouth” He WILL teach you… it is the Promise made. Deut 4:12 … you will eat the words you have spoken, but they will not taste bitter. They will taste sweet as you are taught the understanding of the Word of Life.

But discard the speculations of man first. They are the curse that keeps your eyes shut to the awareness of Life. Jeremiah 17:5

I realize we are in the kingdom of God. The one’s who are unaware don’t reconize his Lordship. You could say that the utopia of Ezekiel is allegorical and you would be right, but there is not only one meaning. Just because we hope for the utopia after death doesn’t mean we should ignore the present one.

“Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.”

Then Malachi 3:6 says, I, the LORD, do not change so that the sons of Jacob are not consumed. If the meanings can be different, then there is NOT ANY stability on which we can call the solid Rock of our salvation. Confusion is all we could ever know.

I found the path to what I was seeking when I quit worrying about the so called “next life” and rather focused on the one that I AM in. I put my trust in God and in His righteous judgments and the Light of Truth suddenly started shining.

 

[simplynoone]

Your law of cause and effect fails in the fact that it doesn’t stand the test of ethics, there are many people who do great evil and still find themselves quite successful.

Geesh! Don’t sound bitter or anything. I didn’t make up the Law of Cause and Effect… go talk to God about how you feel He is so unfair. Proverbs 2:1-7

When are you going to come out and at least acknowledge that this is true?

Never… because I do not believe it is true. Your idea of success and my idea of success is as far as the east is from the west.
9Will God hear his cry when trouble cometh upon him?

10Will he delight himself in the Almighty? will he always call upon God?
11I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.
12Behold, all ye yourselves have seen it; why then are ye thus altogether vain?
13This is the portion of a wicked man with God, and the heritage of oppressors, which they shall receive of the Almighty.
14If his children be multiplied, it is for the sword: and his offspring shall not be satisfied with bread.
15Those that remain of him shall be buried in death: and his widows shall not weep.
16Though he heap up silver as the dust, and prepare raiment as the clay;
17He may prepare it, but the just shall put it on, and the innocent shall divide the silver.
18He buildeth his house as a moth, and as a booth that the keeper maketh. 19The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not.

Justification by self alone does not follow in the fact that God alone justifies, not you.

13Hold your peace, let me alone, that I may speak, and let come on me what will.
14Wherefore do I take my flesh in my teeth, and put my life in mine hand?
15Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.
16He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.
17Hear diligently my speech, and my declaration with your ears. 18Behold now, I have ordered my cause; I know that I shall be justified.

That’s in Job… a book I would like to point you toward. If I declare myself NOT good before God, then what am I saying of Him and this Life that He has created in me? He creates and He calls His creation good … are you saying that does NOT include me? And by whose authority are your speaking?

Of course you are only being disingenuous, hell is a place of eternal punishment, no such thing even remotely exists here on earth. This means that you do not accept nor believe in hell. That God will never do that to anyone is simply a preconceive notion of some god that you have. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is unlike any god.

And you are correct by your last statement… And by the rest of what you say, you have yet to know this God who speaks through the fire; the Voice of the Words is the Voice of Life. Deut 4:12.

There is NOT ANY device, knowledge, work, or wisdom in Death… Ecc 9:10. This comes from the side of the Book that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob’s stories are written in, ya know.
All you are doing is declaring that you do not believe the foundation in which you, I assume, are claiming since it speaks directly against what it is you are teaching here in this thread.