Rethinking married priests to end vocation shortage

[anode]

Well, there sure isn’t any shortage of Episcopal priests in my city. The cathedral has 6 of them. Every church has at least 2 and most more than 2. and epis churches aren’t large. All have a bunch of paid lay staff also.

I think that the age thing–younger than 35- is misleading. Many ‘mature’ people become Episcopal priests, including the head bishop (Presiding Bishop) , a woman who was trained as a marine biologist and was married with a grown child when she entered the priesthood. More and more women are entering Protestant denominations, many older than 35. The Unitarian-Universalists have a lot of ministers and a lot are women. The local church has 3 ministers.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Well, there sure isn’t any shortage of Episcopal priests in my city. The cathedral has 6 of them. Every church has at least 2 and most more than 2. and epis churches aren’t large. All have a bunch of paid lay staff also.

I think that the age thing–younger than 35- is misleading. Many ‘mature’ people become Episcopal priests, including the head bishop (Presiding Bishop) , a woman who was trained as a marine biologist and was married with a grown child when she entered the priesthood. More and more women are entering Protestant denominations, many older than 35. The Unitarian-Universalists have a lot of ministers and a lot are women. The local church has 3 ministers.

You bring up two totally different things.

The ordination of married men to the priesthood is a discipline. Priests may never get married, which is different in the Episcopal Church, they can get married, they can get divorced and remarry. They can even live with their same sex partner.

In the Catholic Church a woman can not be a priest, so bringing that up makes no sense at all for this thread.

 

[JReducation]

Well, there sure isn’t any shortage of Episcopal priests in my city. The cathedral has 6 of them. Every church has at least 2 and most more than 2. and epis churches aren’t large. All have a bunch of paid lay staff also.

I think that the age thing–younger than 35- is misleading. Many ‘mature’ people become Episcopal priests, including the head bishop (Presiding Bishop) , a woman who was trained as a marine biologist and was married with a grown child when she entered the priesthood. More and more women are entering Protestant denominations, many older than 35. The Unitarian-Universalists have a lot of ministers and a lot are women. The local church has 3 ministers.

Are you Catholic? The comparison between the Episcopal community and the Catholic Church is not a valid one. First, the Episcopal community is not a church. It is a Reformation Ecclesial Community. It does not have valid orders or apostolic succession.

Second, the Episcopal community, as Br. David has rightly pointed out, allows their clergy to violate many moral laws.

Third, the Episcopal community fails to have a cohesive sacramental theology. Every diocese and every regiion seems to make up its own.

Those three points alone, make the comparison impossible. We have many points of communion with the Episcopal community, beginning with one baptism and one faith in Jesus Christ. But the differences in our knowledge of the sacraments are wide gaps. They have yet to receive the full understanding of the mystery of the sacraments.

Since we’re speaking of Holy Orders and they do not have Holy Orders, we cannot compare the two contexts.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[anode]

We aren’t arguing theology here. I’m not stumping for the Episcopalians, the UU’s or anyone else. But facts are facts. Lots of people entering Protestant seminaries are over 35 when they get ordained. It’s not a valid scientifically to say that few are under 35, implying that there aren’t any new ones *over *35. There are. The article did not sample the average ages of Protestant seminarians on graduation. It’s much easier to get ordained later if you can be married. I don’t know why the Byz Catholics are having a problem attracting seminarians, if they are, but I suspect that the size of their dioceses and churches, and the remuneration is part of the problem.

The RCC has a real problem in the Western hemisphere. Talk theology all you want but if you look, the pews don’t have many future priests in them, aside from the few dioceses you mention, and that doesn’t begin to answer the need. The RCC is a real hierarchy, it’s not like the Quakers. Without priests, the RCC is in real trouble. There may be many fine Asian and African priests, but they are needed at home, and their cultural and language barriers will be difficult to overcome in Europe and the US.

Ireland’s RC community is not going to overcome the scandals and decline of the church there. England isn’t persecuting it anymore.

As to the argument that contraception is the root of the problem, the RC laity don’t want to produce fodder for the priesthood if they don’t respect priests and don’t want their sons to become priests. It’s as simple as that.

 

[Mini_gerbel]

I would be a priest if God hadn’t made my rib bone vibrate ( literally ) when I heard the creation story and if I wasnt a little handicapped in the mind

aw well. I havent read all the posts but we should know that God is way smarter than any of us and he always has things under control

 

[Irish_Pride]

It is about time the church seriously considered allowing married priests into the priesthood.To stop the shortage .

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Hey Everyone,

I’ve been travelling for the past couple of weeks and it has been made very plain to me that the Church in Ireland is dying. All the priests are old enough to be retired but there is no one to replace them so they continue working and then they don’t have enough energy to run programs for the youth and the result is empty churches with the few parishioners being elderly. It seems that in 10 years or so there will be almost no Catholic Church at all…

Then I started wondering about why we have no new priests. And it hit me that more men would become priests if they could still get married and have children. With the church’s authority to bind and loose couldn’t they change it back to the way it was centuries ago that priests could marry? Priests can marry in rites other than the Latin Rite so why don’t we change that? Change is needed or else we’re going to die out!

Surely the drawbacks of having married priests are not worth the slippery slope the Church finds itself in now.

You’re drawing a number of false conclusions. Besides, and finally, the choice of married or unmarried is not ours but God’s.

 

[JReducation]

We seem to be ignoring one major cause of the shortage of parish priests, which is what I assume that we’re talking about. Because we do have many priests, but not parish priests.

Now let’s look at why we have such a shortage of parish priests.

1. For centuries the bishops depended on religious who are also priests to run their parishes. They can no longer do that. Most religious do not want to do parish work. They want to work in the ministries that are proper to their religious institute.

For example, Marianists want to teach. That’s what they were founded to do. They are ordained to take care of the brothers in their community and their students in their schools, not parishes. Franciscans want to be itinerant, not stuck in parishes. They want the freedom to move around from one activity to another and one ministry to another. That’s what we were founded to do. We’re mendicants, not parish priests. Those friars who are also priests no longer want to do the parish scene. We have several hundred ordained friars in the USA who want nothing to do with parishes. They teach, the run soup kitchens, they run shelters, the work with drug addicts, they do pro-life minsitry, they do street rapping, they run retreats, they serve as spiritual directors, nurses, social workers, doctors, missionaries among the urban poor and some remain very close to the friary doing manual labor and praying.

Some priests become monks or some monks become priests, but there are many of the younger ones who want to live the traditional enclosed monastic life, without contact with the laity, without contact with the outside world or outside Church. The Brothers of the Poor, Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity have many priests who have left the diocesan priesthood to join them among the poor. They don’t want to do parish ministry. There is a change in the mindset of priests who are also religious. Many are also more focussed on community life and are seeking ministries where there is more opportunity for community life. Some still want to work in parishes. But the numbers are smaller than before. More want to return to their charism.

1. Then we have to look at what the laity has done to drive priests away from parish ministry. If you interview five diocesan priests, you will find that one in five is unhappy in parish life. That’s 20%. They give you the same reason. I have heard it many time. “The laity drives me crazy.” or “Parishoners do nothing but complain complain.” or “People want you to work miracles with little resources.” or “I can’t keep up with these hours. I’m burning out and people get angry when I don’t come to the door.” The best one that I heard was about two months ago from a very good friend of mine who is a diocesan priest and a very good pastor. He has means. His parents are very wealthy and he’s an only son. In other words, he is the heir to their wealth and the money is legally his to spend as he wishes. He is a secular priest. He does not have a community nor a vow of poverty. Well, he purchased a beautiful new car. People started a rumor that he was pocketing the collection. He had to show people his personal bank account to squelch the rumors. Most of us who know him, know that his family is very wealthy and that he has additional income from his family’s business. And it’s none of our business how he uses his money. We also know that most diocesan parishes pay lousy salaries and priests have to depend on family estates, inheritance, insurance and even other jobs to make ends meet. This was purely an act of cruelty, not to mention nosiness.

Then there is the situation where the laity wants a school, a more elaborate church building, a multi-purpose center, but the parish cannot afford it, because you don’t have enough children who can pay the tuition that it takes to run a private school these days. You can’t pay the mortgage on a new church building or new multi-purpose center. People get upset if they don’t get what they want when they want it.

Now there is the demand for mass in the EF. But there is a problem. Most priests do not know how to celebrate the EF. Some do not want to learn it. Others who want to learn it, don’t have the time or the money to take the courses. The dioceses do not pay for these courses, nor do they always have a priest to cover for the other one who is going to a one week workshop on the EF or taking a Latin course. As one priest said to me, “I won’t celebrate an EF mass until I know enough Latin to understand. I can’t just read from a missal. It doesn’t feel right. I need a refresher in Latin. It’s been more than 40 years since I celebrated the EF. It was changed right after my ordination.” But some people harrass this poor man who is in his late 60s or early 70s, though he looks 50. It is assumed that he studied Latin therefore should remember it. Wrong assumption. If you don’t use it, you lose it.

continued next post

 

[JReducation]

Conclusion

1. There are priests who are also religious who have been caught in the middle between the priesthood and their religious vows. This is not the way it is supposed to go down. There should be no conflict. A man should be able to respond to both callings: religious life and priesthood.

But there are superiors breathing down the necks of the religious who are priests because they miss too many community meals, too many community recreations, too many community retreats, too many hours in chapel, too many hours of community prayer or they cannot do any work around the community house: wash dishes, do laundry, scrub floors and bathrooms, do gardening, go shopping or any other of the jobs that are typical in a family. Some religious superiors are coming down hard on their brothers who are priests. Because their first duty is to the community and they are expected to schedule their parish duties around the community’s schedule and be available for community life. It’s one thing when a religious misses community recreation once a week. It is a serious thing when he can only make it once a week, because he has parish meetings every night.

What has happened is that many religious communities are consolidating their men. By having more men in one parish, rather than scattered over three, they can serve the parish and have a community life and a religious life. Every one takes turns in the parish. But hat means that two parishes are now without priests. The other option is for the laity to run the parish ministries themselves. But people often have other commitments and sometimes it’s the same few people who volunteer for everything in the parish. Prishioners need to rethink the paradigm of the American parish. Maybe it’s too complicated and our expectations are too many. Maybe the laity can take over most of the work in a parish and let the priests do their ministry according to their gift and the charism of the community.

In one parish that I know, there are seven Franciscans. Three are priests. Only one priest works in the parish. The other two are: high school principal and hospital chaplain. But there are four brothers, all with degrees in theology, who work in the parish. One of them is the superior. The laity compalined to the bishop for over three months because they did not want brothers running the parish, when in fact the pastor is a priest. The superior is a brother and the two pastoral associates are brothers. The parish also has four secular deacons.

People are not always reasonable and they drive away the religious. The dioceses, with few exceptions, cannot produce enough priests and deacons to run the number of parishes.

I realize that these are only some of the causes for the shortage. But we must all examine our consciences and ask ourselves: 1) How much do I contribute to keep the parish running smoothly? and 2) Am I one of the the people who is driving priests away with my demands and constant complaints?

A married clergy will not make these other problems go away.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[catharina]

Adding to JR’s fraternal words, another fact is that the Christian “denominations” who do allow for a married ministry are facing a similar shortage of ‘vocations.’ It might be that in some areas (like the USA), selfishness rules.

 

[edwest2]

It is about time the church seriously considered allowing married priests into the priesthood.To stop the shortage .

I think the Church is seriously considering everything, all the time. I don’t think bringing sex into the equation as an ‘incentive’ is the answer.

Western culture, including Ireland, has separated love from sex. Throw in materialism, and kids and commitment stand in the way of ‘enjoying life’ when truly making a commitment is the answer, not sex.

Birth rates are falling in Europe because kids are considered a bother. Go home to your boyfriend and live in a temporary married situation and have two incomes. This actually delays the process of maturity. Add to that a media culture that encourages people to live like that.

This has nothing to do with ‘thinking.’ It has everything to do with a culture that prefers sex to commitment and every other pleasure they could want. Commitment and personal sacrifice are the heart of the Christian message. Marriage is a vocation.

Peace,
Ed

 

[JReducation]

Adding to JR’s fraternal words, another fact is that the Christian “denominations” who do allow for a married ministry are facing a similar shortage of ‘vocations.’ It might be that in some areas (like the USA), selfishness rules.

There are many moral and immoral reasons for turning down the priesthood as an option. We must not forget that we live in a world where there are many many new and very exciting fields of work where men and women of faith can serve God and humanity. Science and technology in the hands of a person of faith can do wonders and project God’s creative and healing power. The options in these fields alone are numerous compared to 50 years ago. That’s just oen example of a moral choice that people can make, which would reduce the number of men entering seminaries.

Also, there are many new religious communities that ministering in fields that were never touched before, such as media, science, street ministry, pro-life ministry, the disabled, the immigrant, the homeless. We have always had immigrants and homeless, as well as people with disabilities. But now we have many religious communities who make this their sole ministry. I know a group of brothers who work solely in ports. Their ministry is to new immigrants arriving in the USA. We never had a community like that. The Franciscans of the Eternal Word do nothing but media. It was only the Daughters of St. Paul who did this before. The Missionaries of Charity (male), do nothing but street ministry and homes for the dying. They have many priests. My own Franciscan family has several hundred who do mendicant ministry. This had been abandoned for almost 200 years. I know that there are many Benedictine communities that are completely enclosed.

Then we have the area of lay ministry. This has opened up many possibilities for people who want to serve the Church. There are lay missionaries in the USA and abroad. They number in the hundreds. These young men may have once opted for the priesthood, because it was only priests and brothers who went to the missions, sponsored by the Church. That’s no longer the case. There are also lay theologians. This is new. You can be a theologian and not be a priest. Or you can be a religious brother and be a theologian, this too is new.

It is true that the world has suffered a moral hit. All we have to do is to look at marriage. But it is also true that there are other options for good Catholic men. We have to factor all of the variables into the equation. To make celibacy the most important variable is to deceive ourselves.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[catharina]

I think the Church is seriously considering everything, all the time. I don’t think bringing sex into the equation as an ‘incentive’ is the answer.

Western culture, including Ireland, has separated love from sex. Throw in materialism, and kids and commitment stand in the way of ‘enjoying life’ when truly making a commitment is the answer, not sex.

Birth rates are falling in Europe because kids are considered a bother. Go home to your boyfriend and live in a temporary married situation and have two incomes. This actually delays the process of maturity. Add to that a media culture that encourages people to live like that.

So very true. The culture encourages material consumption and exercising the pleasure principle.

This has nothing to do with ‘thinking.’ It has everything to do with a culture that prefers sex to commitment and every other pleasure they could want. Commitment and personal sacrifice are the heart of the Christian message. Marriage is a vocation.

Peace,
Ed

 

[catharina]

There are many moral and immoral reasons for turning down the priesthood as an option. We must not forget that we live in a world where there are many many new and very exciting fields of work where men and women of faith can serve God and humanity. Science and technology in the hands of a person of faith can do wonders and project God’s creative and healing power. The options in these fields alone are numerous compared to 50 years ago. That’s just oen example of a moral choice that people can make, which would reduce the number of men entering seminaries.

Also, there are many new religious communities that ministering in fields that were never touched before, such as media, science, street ministry, pro-life ministry, the disabled, the immigrant, the homeless. We have always had immigrants and homeless, as well as people with disabilities. But now we have many religious communities who make this their sole ministry. I know a group of brothers who work solely in ports. Their ministry is to new immigrants arriving in the USA. We never had a community like that. The Franciscans of the Eternal Word do nothing but media. It was only the Daughters of St. Paul who did this before. The Missionaries of Charity (male), do nothing but street ministry and homes for the dying. They have many priests. My own Franciscan family has several hundred who do mendicant ministry. This had been abandoned for almost 200 years. I know that there are many Benedictine communities that are completely enclosed.

Then we have the area of lay ministry. This has opened up many possibilities for people who want to serve the Church. There are lay missionaries in the USA and abroad. They number in the hundreds. These young men may have once opted for the priesthood, because it was only priests and brothers who went to the missions, sponsored by the Church. That’s no longer the case. There are also lay theologians. This is new. You can be a theologian and not be a priest. Or you can be a religious brother and be a theologian, this too is new.

It is true that the world has suffered a moral hit. All we have to do is to look at marriage. But it is also true that there are other options for good Catholic men. We have to factor all of the variables into the equation. To make celibacy the most important variable is to deceive ourselves.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I agree with you, with every word. Therefore the notion of “dropping” celibacy seems to be a notion of over-simplification.

 

[edwest2]

“fields that were never touched before”?

I did street ministry in the 1970s. All the things you mention are not new.

Peace,
Ed

 

[JReducation]

“fields that were never touched before”?

I did street ministry in the 1970s. All the things you mention are not new.

Peace,
Ed

The 70s is not a long time ago, given the history of the Church. Also, these are new fields of ministry for priests, which is what we’re talking aboiut. I would say that it was about the 1970s when many of the new communities started making their presence and more are in process of being formed. None of the new ones are looking toward parish ministry. More and more men who are priests are joining these communities of brothers. The swing seems to be going back to the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, when men wanted to be brothers, friars, and monks. Some are priests, but not all. Their interest is not in the parish, but the life of the brother, friar or monk.

I believe that the Church goes through cycles when it comes to vocations. The Holy Spirit is calling forth new forms of religious life for men, both priests and lay. The old religious orders are returning to their roots, which places them outside of the parish. That’s one big reason that we see more and more abandoned parishes. Where religious administered 10 - 20 parishes in one province, now they are administering 5 - 10. Their men are elsewhere.

As I said in another post, many of these men, even the ones who are ordained, are under fire from their superiors to pay more attention to their religious life and consolidate parishes. This leaves bishops with understaffed parishes. Because he has to find secular priests to cover them.

This phenomena in male religioius life cannot be taken lightly and it is not being taken lightly by bishops. Some bishops will not contract with religious orders who stipulate that they will place a community of five or six religious in a parish, with two ordained religioius. This means that the parish has to pay for the other religious as well. The religious are not willing to bend any more and put less than three, because they must protect community life and allow themselves the room to have more religious doing the work that their founders wanted, which was rarely parish work.

There are some clerical communities that are still very committed to parishes, but not all communities are clerical, even though they have priests. They do not lean toward parishes, except in a small number.

We have to review our paradigm of parish. Maybe the model that we have in the USA and Europe is no longer conducive to religious life. Therefore, if we want the help of religious institutes, we have to change the model. That may mean dropping some things such as the parish school or some ministries to allow for other ministries that are more consistent with the vocation of the religious institute that staffs the parish. These are just a few thoughts.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[diggerdomer]

Hey Everyone,

I’ve been travelling for the past couple of weeks and it has been made very plain to me that the Church in Ireland is dying. All the priests are old enough to be retired but there is no one to replace them so they continue working and then they don’t have enough energy to run programs for the youth and the result is empty churches with the few parishioners being elderly. It seems that in 10 years or so there will be almost no Catholic Church at all…

Then I started wondering about why we have no new priests. And it hit me that more men would become priests if they could still get married and have children. With the church’s authority to bind and loose couldn’t they change it back to the way it was centuries ago that priests could marry? Priests can marry in rites other than the Latin Rite so why don’t we change that? Change is needed or else we’re going to die out!

Surely the drawbacks of having married priests are not worth the slippery slope the Church finds itself in now.

I know I’m joining this thread “late” but I’ve read and appreciated all the responses.

I don’t think changing the discipline in the Roman Rite regarding celibate priesthood would solve the so-called vocations crisis or shortage.

However…I do think that changing the discipline to allow ordaining married men in the Roman Rite would improve the current situation. I don’t understand why anyone would argue otherwise. I know for a fact there are married men out there who would gladly pursue the priesthood given the chance. Not that this would solve the problem of priestly vocations, but how could it do anything but help?

As has been noted here, married priests are every bit as faithful to the Catholic tradition as celibate priests are.

I think the Church needs to decide what’s more important: celibacy or the priesthood.

 

[JReducation]

I think the Church needs to decide what’s more important: celibacy or the priesthood.

Your post was very good and I like your final question. The answer is that as far as the Holy Fathers are concerned, the priesthood and celibacy in the Latin Rite are inseparable. They will not entertain this question. The only response that you will get is, “The Apostolic See has spoken.”

We are all bound to obey the Apostolic See. Once the pope invokes the his apostolic authority, even in matters that are ordinary.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[diggerdomer]

Your post was very good and I like your final question. The answer is that as far as the Holy Fathers are concerned, the priesthood and celibacy in the Latin Rite are inseparable. They will not entertain this question. The only response that you will get is, “The Apostolic See has spoken.”

We are all bound to obey the Apostolic See. Once the pope invokes the his apostolic authority, even in matters that are ordinary.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

They are not inseparable. The Roman Rite has allowed married priests. It could again. Yes, of course we’re bound to the teachings of the Church, but this is a teaching that the Church could change. I am all for celibacy–for those who feel called to that path to holiness. I don’t think restricting ordination to celibate men is necessary (expecially given the fact that there are exceptions, and given the fact that this is ONLY a discipline for the Roman Rite, not all Catholics). I don’t think allowing married priests would solve the vocations “crisis”–but it sure would help.

 

[JReducation]

They are not inseparable. The Roman Rite has allowed married priests. It could again. Yes, of course we’re bound to the teachings of the Church, but this is a teaching that the Church could change. I am all for celibacy–for those who feel called to that path to holiness. I don’t think restricting ordination to celibate men is necessary (expecially given the fact that there are exceptions, and given the fact that this is ONLY a discipline for the Roman Rite, not all Catholics). I don’t think allowing married priests would solve the vocations “crisis”–but it sure would help.

You’re missing the point. Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have said that in the Latin Rite the priesthood and celibacy are not separate subjects. They must be discussed as a unit and they have also said that they are not willing to even hear the arguments. The closing remark has been, “The Apostolic See has spoken.”

This does not make it an infallible statement, but it makes it an authoritative statement of the Ordinary Magisterium. Therefore, the discussion can only be opened up again by another pope, not by any of us.

In very polite language, we have been told to be quiet and go to our room.

Fraternally,

JR