Rethinking married priests to end vocation shortage

[diggerdomer]

You’re missing the point. Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have said that in the Latin Rite the priesthood and celibacy are not separate subjects. They must be discussed as a unit and they have also said that they are not willing to even hear the arguments. The closing remark has been, “The Apostolic See has spoken.”

This does not make it an infallible statement, but it makes it an authoritative statement of the Ordinary Magisterium. Therefore, the discussion can only be opened up again by another pope, not by any of us.

In very polite language, we have been told to be quiet and go to our room.

Fraternally,

JR

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. Ok, they are not inseparable subjects meaning they need to be discussed as a unit. I have no problem with that. I am not aware that either Pope has definitively closed the door on the discipline of celibacy being changed in the future.

 

[anode]

Well, it will be interesting to see how low the numbers will go before Rome decides to re-open the subject.

I’ll bet the loyal sons love to see the ‘prodigals’ -former Anglican, now RC priests, with wives and children–running around.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Well, it will be interesting to see how low the numbers will go before Rome decides to re-open the subject.

I’ll bet the loyal sons love to see the ‘prodigals’ -former Anglican, now RC priests, with wives and children–running around.

This is is assuming something that is not in evidence. Actually the evidence seems to say the opposite.

That is that allowing married men to be ordained will increase the numbers of those being ordained. The evidence from groups that allow married men seems to say that this is not true.

 

[anode]

My point regarding married RC priests, former Anglicans, is that I have heard that there* is *a good deal of resentment about them from unmarried RC priests.

There does appear to be a shortage of parish pastors in all Christian denominations, but not of seminarians or ordained pastors in non-parish ministry–chaplains, teachers, administrators and such. Parish ministry is notoriously difficult, also underpaid for the time and effort required. And as RC priests, in particular, have lost status, this affects the perceived desirability of the priesthood, in addition to the notoriety of the sex scandals. It’s a vicious cycle, because who would want to become a diocesan parish priest now, when his life would be one endless round of masses and confessions between constant commuting? There *are *diocesan seminaries turning out more priests, but not nearly enough to stem the tide. And I think that it is almost immoral to recruit from countries where they may have priests who may certainly be eager to come to the US, but whose countries need them far more.

 

[JReducation]

My point regarding married RC priests, former Anglicans, is that I have heard that there* is *a good deal of resentment about them from unmarried RC priests.

I’ve never run into this, but then I have only known one married priest.

There does appear to be a shortage of parish pastors in all Christian denominations, but not of seminarians or ordained pastors in non-parish ministry

Did you factor in that many priests are also religious. Many religious are moving out of parish ministry and into ministries that are consistent with their charism. Many are keeping most of the parishes they have. As the number of religious interested in parish ministry decreases, the parishes are handed back and they consolidate to keep the number of men in the community stable. Mine is not the only religious family gradually placing less men in parishes.

You have to factor that the number of secular priests is much smaller than the number of priests who are religious. As the number of religious running parishes decreases, there are going to be more parishes that need priests. That cannot be solved by voluntary celibacy. The solution is a redesign of the parish paradigm that we have in the USA.

I remember when I was in the missions in South America and in New Guinea, the parishes do not have schools, they do not have convents attached to them, they do not have multiple ministries. Schools are run by lay catholics or by religious and they are free standing. They have nothing to do with any parish. Religious education is run by religious and lay catechists. And other ministries are run out of religious houses. The Carmelites in South America do a great deal of work in retreat ministry and spiritual guidance. The Jesuits do a lot of work with married couples. There are many community of sisters and brothers that work with youth. The Salesians also run most youth ministried in South America, either directly or indirectly by running training centers for youth ministers and running the diocesan youth office. As you see, ministries are distributed according to the charism of the religious institutes. We don’t have that here. We expect anyone stationed in a parish to be a Jack-of-All-Trades.

Parish ministry is notoriously difficult, also underpaid for the time and effort required.

Actually, my personal experience has been very different. Of all the ministries that I ever did, parish was the easiest. We ran the parish from 8:00 to 4:30. One ordained friar was on call for emergencies. After 4:30, we were involved in community life: Liturgy of the Hours, community supper, community recreation, silence, lectio divina, spiritual reading, study, simply quiet time. The typical evening meetings were run by the laity. The understanding when we took the parish was that the friars had to be free to live the contemplative life. We did spend time with the parishioners, but it was according to our schedule. When we left the friary for an evening meeting it was always with the understanding that only one of us would be gone at a time. We had a schedule on the buletin board in the community room. Each friar would write in any evening activities. This way these activities did not strip away at community life and we didn’t become diocesan priests in religious habits.

And as RC priests, in particular, have lost status, this affects the perceived desirability of the priesthood, in addition to the notoriety of the sex scandals.

I don’t know if they have lost status, but it is true that they have to firght off the backwash of the scandlals.

It’s a vicious cycle, because who would want to become a diocesan parish priest now, when his life would be one endless round of masses and confessions between constant commuting?

That’s why you have schedules. Usually priests do not celebrate more than three masses on one Sunday. There are rules that govern the number of masses that you may celebrate on one given day, anyway. The commuting can be a problem. But priests and religious in the missions do that every day. Towns are very far apart. Maybe we’re very comfortable in the USA with our campus style parishes.

There *are *

diocesan seminaries turning out more priests, but not nearly enough to stem the tide.

Let’s wait a minute here. The tide that people are talking about is not really a tide, but an unnatural phenomena. There are almost the same number of men entering diocesan seminaries today as there were at the end of the 19th century. The boom came between WW I and WW II. What happened was that there were a large number of Catholics that immigrated to the USA at the turn of the century. Given the larger number of Catholics, there was also a larger number of young men entering the seminary. Unfortunately, the old Catholic family (that came from Europe), no longer exists. As the traditional European Catholic families went into decline, so did the number of men entering seminaries.

When we speak about 25% of Americans being Catholic, the number is a myth. Of that 25% about 20% are Catholics. Twenty-five percent of Americans may be baptized Catholics. That does not make them active Catholics or interested in being active Catholics.

And I think that it is almost immoral to recruit from countries where they may have priests who may certainly be eager to come to the US, but whose countries need them far more.

Actually, some countries have a surplus of priests. India, Nigeria, Colombia, and Jamaica are looking for dioceses outside their countries to take some of their priests, because they cannot afford to hire them. There was a wonderful article on that, but I can’t recall what journal it was in.

This is an interesting conversation. I’m enjoying the dialogue.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TeresaAnn]

Thanks again Br. JR for all the insight. I always learn a lot from your posts.

I can certainly understand the trails of a Parish Priest. It breaks your heart. I remember years ago our Parish Priest telling us of some of the situations he has to be very cautious about. I guess the Parish was helping out a young lady (I don’t know the details) who needed somewhere to stay for a night so he brought her to a motel room. You can tell that he felt he had to let the whole parish know why he was there just to fend off any misconceptions. I’m sure he spoke at each Mass about it that weekend. I felt terrible for him and all other priests. Living life under a negative microscope. Especially in todays world were the common person does not extend them a fraction of the respect they deserve. The whining and complaining too… sigh. I pray for our Priests and Religious every day.

On another note… interestingly I just found out that one of the Parishes in our city that I used to go to once in a while as a child is now run by the Carmelites I’m off to pay them a visit sometime soon. My Mother told me about it and she mentioned that some people are having a hard time with the transition because I guess Father’s homilies tend to run longer than they are used to and he is fairly strict! LOL I want to check this out, I’m sure I’ll learn from him!

Oh, on the subject. I agree that celibacy is not the issue with the shortage. I don’t think Priests or Religious Brothers or Sisters should marry.

 

[JReducation]

Oh, on the subject. I agree that celibacy is not the issue with the shortage. I don’t think Priests or Religious Brothers or Sisters should marry.

The celibacy question does not apply to religious brothers and women religious. It only applies to secular priests.

Religious, male or female, must make vows of chastity. This is part of our doctrine. The Church does not have the authority to change this. Religious life is built upon the evangelical counsels: obedience, poverty and chastity (consecrated celibacy).

The diocesan priest does not make a vow of chastity. He makes a promise of celibacy. It’s not a vow nor is it a consecration of his life. It is a promise never to marry.

The religious man and woman consecrates his life to Christ, thus he or she makes a vow of chastity or what is also called consecrated celibacy.

The topic of this thread does not apply to any priest who is ALSO a religious. If a priest is a religious, he makes vows of obedience, poverty and chastity.

If he is diocesan he makes NO VOWS. He promises to obey his bishop and to remain single. This is the group that is under discussion on this thread.

For example, you have seen Br. David and me on these threads. We are religious men. Br. David is also studying to be a priest. However, he will always be a brother as well. He does not cease being a Carmelite Friar. I am not a priest. But I do not cease being a Franciscan Brother of LIfe (OSF).

Both, Br. David and I have made vows: obedience, poverty and chastity. Br. David is in temporary vows and I am in solemn vows. Eventually, he too will be in solemn vows. Diocesan priests do not make these vows. A man who makes these vows can also become a priest if he is called by Christ. But the priesthood does not require that he make these vows.

The group that does not make these vows are real and valid priests, but they are not consecrated men. They are diocesan priests. As we explained above, they make two promises.

These are the men that this posts speaking about. There is no way that religious brothers or religious sisters can ever be married.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TeresaAnn]

Yes I realize this Br. JR. I would like to become a sister one day and am already celibate

I guess I just included them as a statement that it wouldn’t be good for any of the groups.

 

[anode]

I’ll take your word for it re the supply of priests in the third world vs. the US. Hard to believe.

We’re talking about diocesan priests and their troubles. You’re describing the situation re religious priests who are ‘protected’ by their orders–and a good thing too. I don’t think diocesan priests are protected this way.

Your description of the fact that the number of priests being stable ignores the fact that the absolute number of Catholics, even practicing Catholics has greatly risen, and even the non-practicing, or non-observant, will occasionally go to Mass, want confession, a priest to marry, baptize and bury them–which increasingly is being performed by laymen and deacons. This latter is not necessarily a bad thing.

–the observation re the absolute numbers of priests holds for religious too–the burgeoning numbers after immigration and WWII were anomalies. Now things are getting, rather painfully, back to normal.

 

[JReducation]

Yes I realize this Br. JR. I would like to become a sister one day and am already celibate

I guess I just included them as a statement that it wouldn’t be good for any of the groups.

I’m sorry if I misunderstood. When I read that it would not be good for brothers and sisters to be married, I assumed that you thought that such an option was even possible. There are many people who don’t know the difference between the discipline of celibacy and the vow of chastity.

Sorry once again.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TeresaAnn]

I’m sorry if I misunderstood. When I read that it would not be good for brothers and sisters to be married, I assumed that you thought that such an option was even possible. There are many people who don’t know the difference between the discipline of celibacy and the vow of chastity.

Sorry once again.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

That’s ok, I actually learned the difference from a previous post of yours. So, Thank-you.

God Bless,
Teresa

 

[JReducation]

I’ll take your word for it re the supply of priests in the third world vs. the US. Hard to believe.

We’re talking about diocesan priests and their troubles. You’re describing the situation re religious priests who are ‘protected’ by their orders–and a good thing too. I don’t think diocesan priests are protected this way.

Your description of the fact that the number of priests being stable ignores the fact that the absolute number of Catholics, even practicing Catholics has greatly risen, and even the non-practicing, or non-observant, will occasionally go to Mass, want confession, a priest to marry, baptize and bury them–which increasingly is being performed by laymen and deacons. This latter is not necessarily a bad thing.

–the observation re the absolute numbers of priests holds for religious too–the burgeoning numbers after immigration and WWII were anomalies. Now things are getting, rather painfully, back to normal.

The reason that I was describing the situation of religious who are priests (there is no such thing as a religious priest) is because the changes in the direction of religious institutes of men that have priests have helped to create the vacuum in parishes. As the religious move out or take up parishes among certain populations, they create vacuums in many parishes.

It is true that the number of Catholics in the USA has risen and they need priests. I agree with you on that score. I am not sure if your wording is intentional and I should disagree or your wording is just confusing to me. You mentioned deacons baptizing, witnessing weddings and burrying the dead and said “This latter is not necessarily a bad thing.” Actually, if we study the theology of Holy Orders, these functions, along with proclaiming the Gospel and preaching, properly belong to the deacon, not the presbyter. The reason that priests can perform these functions is because every priest is also a deacon. Once ordained a deacon, he does not cease to be a deacon when he is ordained a presbyter. That would be like saying that a bishop is no longer a priest.

The number of religious also inflated between WW I and WW II. However, religious houses of formation always had larger numbers of men than secular seminaries. Religious communities were professing double the number of men that secular seminaries were ordaining. Even with the decline in numbers, religious institutes of men are still professing two men to every one that is ordained for a diocese. If you have hundreds of religious communities of men and less dioceses, there are going to be shortages of diocesan priests. Now we have to add the trend in some religious institutes not to ordain as many men as they did. This is done to protect the religious institute from turning into priestly institutes or clerical institutes. That also contributes to the lower numbers of priests in a parish.

My community runs a parish (not where I’m stationed) with seven brothers. Three are ordained, but only one of the ordained work for the parish. The other ordained brothers live in the house but one is a high school principal and the other is a hosptial chaplain. The superior is a non-clerical brother who teaches theology at the seminary. The other non-clerical brothers are the associates in the parish. That’s their training, theology and ministry. Here is a case of a parish that once upon a time had two priests and now has one, because of changes within the community that runs it. Even though these are religious, it does affect the number of priests in parish ministry.

The other point that you mention is very important. The call to the secular priesthood is being answered more frequently in developing nations than it is in the developed nations of the world. Even the call to religious life is heard more in the developing nations that in the developed nations. They have very orthodox priests and religious.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I seriously doubt that allowing married priests would help with the shortage. The Church in Ireland is struggling because it’s become a very secularized country. Instead of allowing the priests to get married, the Church should be praying for people to return to the faith and to follow God-given vocations. Many people are ignoring the call because they are not active in the faith.

Amen amen amen!

 

[JReducation]

While I understand the anxiety of the laity over the shortage of parish priests, I also believe that there are solutions that the laity has not always considered. Some, because people simply do not know that these are possible. Some solutions have never been considered because people become attached to what they have grown up with and it is difficult giving it up. But here are some possible solutions that have not been explored by either laity or bishops. Maybe the laity can place them on the table.

1. Look at parishes in other nations. Observe that they are much simpler. They do not include schools, 30 or 40 different ministries under the direction of the clergy. They do not have large pieces of property They depend heavily on lay catechists who are well trained in professional catechetical training centers. These lay catechists take care of smaller groups of people in areas that are not properly priestly ministries. These allows for a smaller number of parish priests.
2. Accept religious congregations and religious orders of men on their terms, not our expectations. Let them have their six to eight hours of parish work and then take off to attend to their duties within the religious community. Take away the expectation that a priest has to be present at every function or every meeting. Accept that many religious congregations and orders have very well trained non-clerical friars, monks and brothers who can run parishes just as well as any priest. This reduces the number of priests needed in the parish. You don’t need a priest for spiritual direction, family counseling, to visit the sick and the shut-in. You don’t need a priest to run religious education or other ministries in the parish. These can be run by non-clerical religious and lay people. You don’t a pastor who is also the parish administrator and the superior of the religious house. Non clerical-religious can be parish administrators and religious superiors, while the ordained religious can be the pastor. This also reduces the number of priests needed for the parish.
3. The members of secular orders number in the millions. In the past they took care of the poor, the sick, the orphans, the education and the seniors. Today, many of these secular orders exist in parishes and they just meet once a month and are gone. They can and should, according to their rule and constitution take up the apostolate of the laity within the parish and the diocese. This would free many priests in diocesan projects to go back to the parish. I know that in one diocese the Secular Franciscans run the diocesan right to life program and they coordinate it for the entire diocese. The bishop invited them to take it over. Secular Orders can only exist in a diocese if they are incardinated by the bishop. They should be working with the bishop and local pastors. In another diocese a religious congregation of women was founded to run right to life for the entire diocese. In NY and Boston, friars run the entire retreat ministry and the ministry to the hungry. This allows diocesan priests to work in parishes. In Florida the Carmelites and the Passionists run the retreat ministry for the Archdiocese of Miami and the Diocese of West Palm Beach. This frees up diocesan priests for parish work and allows the religious to remain within the diocese in ministries that are consistent with their charism.
4. In some dioceses in the Bible Belt they have imported priests from developing nations who want to come to the USA as missionaries. They need the money to send back tot heir home dioceses to pay for the formation of their men back home. The interdiocesan coordination actually helps two dioceses at the same time. Often, diocesan priests in other countries need to go to school, but lack the funds. They are looking for parishes in the developed nations to hire them, so they can pay their way through school. There is a neighboring parish where we are that has a priest from Nigeria who studies canon law. He works for the parish 10 months out of the year. He is very much loved by the people there and he is a big help to the two priests who are there.
5. The Church has always encourage the foundation of new forms of religious life and societies of apostolic life. There are many single lay people who hear God’s call to a life of service and community, but don’t know where to turn. There is no reason why they cannot organize themselves into new communities and place themselves at the service of the local bishop. The bishops welcome them, as long as they can pay their way. If they work for the Church, they are paying their way. Often the laity forgets that you, the writer of this post, may have a calling to such a way of life as well as others. My own community is always looking for men who want to become Franciscan brothers and serve Christ totally dedicated to the Gospel, through the vowed life, and totally dedicated to the service of our unborn brothers and sisters in Respect Life ministries, in the manner and spirit of St. Francis. If you are single and male, this may be a way to help the priest shortage. We do not ordain our members, because there are many Franciscans from the other branches of the family who are ordained. We do not need priests. But we need men to care for the unborn, their parents and for those children who are rescued from abortion. Like us, there are several communities for women as well. This relieves priests to care for parishes. Get in touch with these folks. Find out if you are called.

In conclusion, there are many unexplored options. These options must be explored by bishops and the laity together. But the bishops may not think of them unless someone puts them on their desk. Try it. Your bishop may be very responsive.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Anil_Dsouza]

I am one of those fortunate few who is blessed with a lot of religious in the family. My dads brothers are Jesuits and a lot of his cousins are Nuns and priests belonging to the different religious orders.

I did dabble with being a priest and came close to joining a seminary but i see it differently now being married and with a kid.

I did happen to ask my uncles whom i am so close to if they ever feel priests should be allowed to marry but the answers from them was at this stage in their life they have had a good life and lived as per the laws of the church giving their best.

Another uncle of mine did say that it is an option that the church should look at but marriage was certainly not for him not just because he was past his age but the life that he choose to live was with the tribals and the poor of India certainly not a place to take ones wife.

I think it is high time that the church takes a different view on the laws of married priests. i am well aware of a lot of my friends who went on to join the seminary and then just before their ordination gave it all up to get married or some absolutely lovely priests and nuns who gave up their religious order to get married. it was a big loss to the church and to the people at large.

 

[anode]

It seems to me that the laity is already doing a great deal and also making great sacrifices in time and money. How much more they can absorb is not clear. Many Catholics are up to their ears in jobs, families and debt, working two jobs and more, and have no extra time to give their parishes.

Time will tell.

 

[Anil_Dsouza]

Yes it is very much true. we are so much neck deep into our works and other activities that it makes life diffcult to keep abreast with the daily happenings around the church.

for people like me who work in the Gulf it makes life all the more difficult unlike when i am in India where we have so many activities in our Parish

 

[sparkletina]

Jesus while on earth shaped His Bride, The Church. Likewise, priests are wedded to their Bride, which is the very same Church, You cannot have two brides; that is why priests cannot marry; they are already married to the Church, which is the Bride of Christ.

Anyway, I come out of evangelical non-denominationalism where ministers are married. Either they give 100% to their families or 100% to their church–but they can’t do both, therefore one has to suffer at the expense of the other. Usually, it’s the family. I don’t think it works, no matter what they say.

 

[trinitatis]

I am brand new here. I just posted the Apologist about this issue. I am very confused just now. My 16 year old son has just finished summer workouts with his Catholic High School football team. Turns out the new school chaplain, a former football player at college, is alao the new linebacker coach. The kids including my son love him. At the end of summer training the athletic department held a Mass followed by a BBQ. The new chaplain celebrated. At the BBQ following Mass I met the new chaplain and his wife! I and many other parents were shocked. I did some checking around and it turns out our new chaplain was an Anglican priest in Canada for six years. He has a BA and MA in Religious Studies from a Catholic University in Toronto, and a M.Div from the Toronto School of Theology, a union theological seminary. He and his family became Catholics only two years ago. I am not happy. I wonder what kind of example to high school Catholics this man can be. My brother in-law tells me to relax and that almost all Catholic priests in the Middle East are married. What is going on and should I complain to the school or my bishop about this. Confused Mom.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Jesus while on earth shaped His Bride, The Church. Likewise, priests are wedded to their Bride, which is the very same Church, You cannot have two brides; that is why priests cannot marry; they are already married to the Church, which is the Bride of Christ.

Priests do not marry the Church. No where in any work on the theology of Holy Orders is this ever said.

One reason is that until the 12th century or so the whole Catholic Church allowed for the ordination of married men.

The Eastern Catholic Churches still ordain married men to the priesthood and Rome has granted many dispensations for married men to be ordained in the Latin Catholic Church.

A secular priest can contract a valid, though illicit, marriage. A religious, who is under vows, can not contract a valid marriage.