Retreat in the Face of Opposition

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KMXV said:
Seems like a blanket permission to me.

And, my, what a warm, comfy blanket. I could snuggle in it forever, especially with this cold snap we’ve been having recently.
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It doesn’t get cold in the US. You have to come to Canada to get cold. 😉
 
paramedicgirl said:
You’ll pardon me if I sidestep this discussion. Been there, done that. :yawn:
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Fine, just don’t keep telling innocent questioners that something is okay with the Church when it isn’t. The Church doesn’t find the topic of souls endangered by schism to be boring, I wager.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Fine, just don’t keep telling innocent questioners that something is okay with the Church when it isn’t. You may be bored with whether or not someone’s soul is endangered, the Church isn’t.
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A difference of opinion, JKIRK. It doesn’t make you any more right than it makes me.
 
paramedicgirl said:
A difference of opinion, JKIRK. It doesn’t make you any more right than it makes me.
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It isn’t about you or me. It’s about TRUTH. Ecclesia Dei stands. It hasn’t been repealed. The Holy See hasn’t given permission for the faithful to attend SSPX Masses even IF they do so out of a love for the old Mass. They are warned against schism. To say otherwise is to say contrary to what the Church says and it could endanger souls.
 
And I say again, there’s nothing wrong with a strategic retreat, especially when you are retreating to the warmth of a freshly laundered blanket. Mmmmm…warm blankets.
 
KMXV said:
And I say again, there’s nothing wrong with a strategic retreat, especially when you are retreating to the warmth of a freshly laundered blanket. Mmmmm…warm blankets.
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Then let us hope that the old, “traditional” teaching does NOT hold in this instance and schismatics are not condemned. Otherwise, those warm blankets could get a little TOO warm:

newadvent.org/cathen/13529a.htm
 
paramedicgirl said:
Are you saying that the laity who attend the SSPX chapels are schismatics?
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I’m saying they’re warned against it. They wouldn’t be warned against it unless there was a very real danger that they could BE or BECOME schismatics.
 
JackQ said:
The problem I have with many traditionalists and orthodox Catholics is their tendency to retreat in the face of opposition. Some traditionalists even go off and start their own Church. Then they complain about such things as liturgical dance and heretics in the RCIA.

What is needed is more orthodox Catholics in positions of parish leadership, more orthodox Catholics knocking on bishop’s doors demanding more reverent liturgies, and more orthodox Catholics actually engaged in catechesis. Don’t be put off by those who would want to exclude you. Insinuate yourselves!

The results often won’t look as good as you hope. That’s because you will face (gasp!) opposition, and sometimes the opponents will get their way. But that’s no reason to let people who don’t even believe in Catholicism to trample our sanctuaries.

In a word, stop running away! Stand and fight!
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I think those who are holding fast to the faith in this day of darkness and apostacy are fighting.

We have precedent for todays situation. All you have to do is read the writings of those who kept the faith during the Arian crisis.

Many of them fled to the desert because they would have no part with the “wicked Arian leaven”. They presserved the faith whole and inviolate until the time when the local Churches returned to the faith.

Here are a few quotes from St. Basil who lived during the Arian crisis:

St. Basil: "Our afflictions are well known without my telling; the sound of them has gone forth over all Christendom. The dogmas of the Fathers are despised; apostolic traditions are set at nought; the discoveries of innovators hold sway in churches. Men have learned to be speculatists instead of theologians. The wisdom of the world has the place of honor, having dispossessed the glorying of the cross. The pastors are driven away. grievous
wolves are brought in instead, and plunder the flock of Christ.
–Epistulae (cf. Appendix V of John Henry Cardinal Newman’s Arians of the Fourth Century)

St. Basil: "The danger is not confined to one Church… This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of Godliness are
overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the
ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and
the chief seat is now openly proposed as a reward for impiety; so
that he whose blasphemies are the more shocking, is more eligible for the oversight of the people. Priestly gravity has perished; there are none left to feed the Lord’s flock with knowledge; ambitious men are ever spending, in purposes of self-indulgence and bribery, possessions which they hold in trust for the poor. The accurate observation of the canons are no more; there is no restraint upon sin. Unbelievers laugh at what they see, and the weak are unsettled; faith is doubtful, ignorance is poured over their souls, because the adulterators of the word in wickedness imitate the truth. Religious people keep silence, but every blaspheming tongue is let loose. Sacred things are profaned; those of the laity who are sound in faith avoid the places of worship, as schools of impiety, and raise their hands in solitude with groans and tears to the Lord in heaven. --Epistulae 92 (ca. 372)

St. Basil: "Matters have come to this pass: the people have left their houses of prayer and assembled in the deserts, – a pitiable
sight; women and children, old men, and men otherwise inform,
wretchedly faring in the open air, amid most profuse rains and
snow-storms and winds and frosts of winter; and again in summer
under a scorching sun. To this they submit because they will
have no part of the wicked Arian leaven. --Epistulae 242 (376)

So likewise, Traditional Catholics today often *“avoid the places of worship, as schools of impiety”, and endure persecutions for it. All this they submit to becayse “they will have no part of the wicken liberal/modernist leaven”.

To you this seems to be running away; but to those who know better it is the way to preserve the faith pure and undefiled in this docrinal and moral crisis we are living through. As Fr. Corapi once said “you can’t roll around in manuer without getting smelly”.

And the context in which he said it was in response to those who claim you should suffer, and “offer up” the liberalsim found at the average parish.*
 
KMXV said:
I’m afraid I’m irretreviably lost, Vegas. Well, almost. I’d rather head there accompanied by chant than OCP caterwauling.
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Then you’ve missed the point. It’s not an aesthetic.
 
Pax_et_Caritas said:
To you this seems to be running away; but to those who know better it is the way to preserve the faith pure and undefiled in this docrinal and moral crisis we are living through. As Fr. Corapi once said “you can’t roll around in manuer without getting smelly”.

And the context in which he said it was in response to those who claim you should suffer, and “offer up” the liberalsim found at the average parish.
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Exactly. Strategic retreat is the best course of action. Don’t want to end up smelling of dung.
 
Pax_et_Caritas said:
I think those who are holding fast to the faith in this day of darkness and apostacy are fighting.

We have precedent for todays situation. All you have to do is read the writings of those who kept the faith during the Arian crisis.

Many of them fled to the desert because they would have no part with the “wicked Arian leaven”. They presserved the faith whole and inviolate until the time when the local Churches returned to the faith.

Here are a few quotes from St. Basil who lived during the Arian crisis:

St. Basil: "Our afflictions are well known without my telling; the sound of them has gone forth over all Christendom. The dogmas of the Fathers are despised; apostolic traditions are set at nought; the discoveries of innovators hold sway in churches. Men have learned to be speculatists instead of theologians. The wisdom of the world has the place of honor, having dispossessed the glorying of the cross. The pastors are driven away. grievous
wolves are brought in instead, and plunder the flock of Christ.
–Epistulae (cf. Appendix V of John Henry Cardinal Newman’s Arians of the Fourth Century)

St. Basil: "The danger is not confined to one Church… This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of Godliness are
overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the
ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and
the chief seat is now openly proposed as a reward for impiety; so
that he whose blasphemies are the more shocking, is more eligible for the oversight of the people. Priestly gravity has perished; there are none left to feed the Lord’s flock with knowledge; ambitious men are ever spending, in purposes of self-indulgence and bribery, possessions which they hold in trust for the poor. The accurate observation of the canons are no more; there is no restraint upon sin. Unbelievers laugh at what they see, and the weak are unsettled; faith is doubtful, ignorance is poured over their souls, because the adulterators of the word in wickedness imitate the truth. Religious people keep silence, but every blaspheming tongue is let loose. Sacred things are profaned; those of the laity who are sound in faith avoid the places of worship, as schools of impiety, and raise their hands in solitude with groans and tears to the Lord in heaven. --Epistulae 92 (ca. 372)

St. Basil: "Matters have come to this pass: the people have left their houses of prayer and assembled in the deserts, – a pitiable
sight; women and children, old men, and men otherwise inform,
wretchedly faring in the open air, amid most profuse rains and
snow-storms and winds and frosts of winter; and again in summer
under a scorching sun. To this they submit because they will
have no part of the wicked Arian leaven. --Epistulae 242 (376)

So likewise, Traditional Catholics today often *“avoid the places of worship, as schools of impiety”, and endure persecutions for it. All this they submit to becayse *“they will have no part of the wicken liberal/modernist leaven”**.

To you this seems to be running away; but to those who know better it is the way to preserve the faith pure and undefiled in this docrinal and moral crisis we are living through. As Fr. Corapi once said “you can’t roll around in manuer without getting smelly”.

And the context in which he said it was in response to those who claim you should suffer, and “offer up” the liberalsim found at the average parish.

That could have been written for today’s world. Very interesting…
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paramedicgirl said:
Are you saying that the laity who attend the SSPX chapels are schismatics?
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I suspect there are some since it’s really not that hard to “support the schism”.
The priests and faithful are warned not to support the schism of Monsignor Lefebvre, otherwise they shall incur ipso facto the very grave penalty of excommunication.
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sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id57.html

Can I point to a specific person? Nope but I can say that I suspect there are more than a couple who probably are.
 
PMG:

I apologize if post #22 sounded personalized. I am trying to watch how I post and address the argument and not the person.
I do, however, still think the Church is clear on the status of the SSPX.
 
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