Retreat in the Face of Opposition

  • Thread starter Thread starter JackQ
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
JackQ said:
The problem I have with many traditionalists and orthodox Catholics is their tendency to retreat in the face of opposition. Some traditionalists even go off and start their own Church. Then they complain about such things as liturgical dance and heretics in the RCIA.

What is needed is more orthodox Catholics in positions of parish leadership, more orthodox Catholics knocking on bishop’s doors demanding more reverent liturgies, and more orthodox Catholics actually engaged in catechesis. Don’t be put off by those who would want to exclude you. Insinuate yourselves!

The results often won’t look as good as you hope. That’s because you will face (gasp!) opposition, and sometimes the opponents will get their way. But that’s no reason to let people who don’t even believe in Catholicism to trample our sanctuaries.

In a word, stop running away! Stand and fight!
Click to expand...
That is the correct approach for Catholics to take, instead of retreating into a private little corner of their own and isolating themselves from all other Catholics, while at the same time complaining against what they perceive to be as apostasy and heresy in the Church. We’ve seen this Us vs. Them attitude too many times from people who claim to be the true upholders of Catholic tradition.
 
Pax_et_Caritas said:
I think those who are holding fast to the faith in this day of darkness and apostacy are fighting.

We have precedent for todays situation. All you have to do is read the writings of those who kept the faith during the Arian crisis.

Many of them fled to the desert because they would have no part with the “wicked Arian leaven”. They presserved the faith whole and inviolate until the time when the local Churches returned to the faith.

Here are a few quotes from St. Basil who lived during the Arian crisis:

St. Basil: "Our afflictions are well known without my telling; the sound of them has gone forth over all Christendom. The dogmas of the Fathers are despised; apostolic traditions are set at nought; the discoveries of innovators hold sway in churches. Men have learned to be speculatists instead of theologians. The wisdom of the world has the place of honor, having dispossessed the glorying of the cross. The pastors are driven away. grievous
wolves are brought in instead, and plunder the flock of Christ.
–Epistulae (cf. Appendix V of John Henry Cardinal Newman’s Arians of the Fourth Century)

St. Basil: "The danger is not confined to one Church… This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of Godliness are
overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the
ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and
the chief seat is now openly proposed as a reward for impiety; so
that he whose blasphemies are the more shocking, is more eligible for the oversight of the people. Priestly gravity has perished; there are none left to feed the Lord’s flock with knowledge; ambitious men are ever spending, in purposes of self-indulgence and bribery, possessions which they hold in trust for the poor. The accurate observation of the canons are no more; there is no restraint upon sin. Unbelievers laugh at what they see, and the weak are unsettled; faith is doubtful, ignorance is poured over their souls, because the adulterators of the word in wickedness imitate the truth. Religious people keep silence, but every blaspheming tongue is let loose. Sacred things are profaned; those of the laity who are sound in faith avoid the places of worship, as schools of impiety, and raise their hands in solitude with groans and tears to the Lord in heaven. --Epistulae 92 (ca. 372)

St. Basil: "Matters have come to this pass: the people have left their houses of prayer and assembled in the deserts, – a pitiable
sight; women and children, old men, and men otherwise inform,
wretchedly faring in the open air, amid most profuse rains and
snow-storms and winds and frosts of winter; and again in summer
under a scorching sun. **To this they submit because they will **
have no part of the wicked Arian leaven. --Epistulae 242 (376)

So likewise, Traditional Catholics today often *“avoid the places of worship, as schools of impiety”, and endure persecutions for it. All this they submit to becayse *“they will have no part of the wicken liberal/modernist leaven”**.

To you this seems to be running away; but to those who know better it is the way to preserve the faith pure and undefiled in this docrinal and moral crisis we are living through. As Fr. Corapi once said “you can’t roll around in manuer without getting smelly”.

And the context in which he said it was in response to those who claim you should suffer, and “offer up” the liberalsim found at the average parish.

Well, the Catholics of the past didn’t break communion with the Apostolic See, even when they were trying to avoid Arianism. And I know from personal experience that if you hold your own those who do not follow the Magisterium will back down. They have to, because they can’t admit that they don’t. It’s a “pay no attention to that man behind the curtain” kind of thing.

Once, when my wife and I were sponsering a couple of people through RCIA, a Sister came in and taught the class that the Church permits the morning after pill in certain circumstances. My wife later called her on the phone to ask about it. The Sister came to the next class to “clarify,” and rendered a complete retraction.

During that same year a regular RCIA instructor told a catechuman that it really didn’t matter if she became Catholic. I directly challenged him on it after class. He became visibly angry. He no longer teaches RCIA classes.

Now there’s nothing special about me other than being overweight. So instead of hiding in a corner with our special groups, or going into schism, which is itself contrary to Catholicism, let’s use the boldness the Holy Spirit gave us at our confirmation and drive out or convert the invaders of the sanctuary.
Click to expand...
 
Pax_et_Caritas said:
I think those who are holding fast to the faith in this day of darkness and apostacy are fighting.

We have precedent for todays situation. All you have to do is read the writings of those who kept the faith during the Arian crisis.

Many of them fled to the desert because they would have no part with the “wicked Arian leaven”. They presserved the faith whole and inviolate until the time when the local Churches returned to the faith.

Here are a few quotes from St. Basil who lived during the Arian crisis:

St. Basil: "Our afflictions are well known without my telling; the sound of them has gone forth over all Christendom. The dogmas of the Fathers are despised; apostolic traditions are set at nought; the discoveries of innovators hold sway in churches. Men have learned to be speculatists instead of theologians. The wisdom of the world has the place of honor, having dispossessed the glorying of the cross. The pastors are driven away. grievous
wolves are brought in instead, and plunder the flock of Christ.
–Epistulae (cf. Appendix V of John Henry Cardinal Newman’s Arians of the Fourth Century)

St. Basil: "The danger is not confined to one Church… This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of Godliness are
overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the
ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and
the chief seat is now openly proposed as a reward for impiety; so
that he whose blasphemies are the more shocking, is more eligible for the oversight of the people. Priestly gravity has perished; there are none left to feed the Lord’s flock with knowledge; ambitious men are ever spending, in purposes of self-indulgence and bribery, possessions which they hold in trust for the poor. The accurate observation of the canons are no more; there is no restraint upon sin. Unbelievers laugh at what they see, and the weak are unsettled; faith is doubtful, ignorance is poured over their souls, because the adulterators of the word in wickedness imitate the truth. Religious people keep silence, but every blaspheming tongue is let loose. Sacred things are profaned; those of the laity who are sound in faith avoid the places of worship, as schools of impiety, and raise their hands in solitude with groans and tears to the Lord in heaven. --Epistulae 92 (ca. 372)

St. Basil: "Matters have come to this pass: the people have left their houses of prayer and assembled in the deserts, – a pitiable
sight; women and children, old men, and men otherwise inform,
wretchedly faring in the open air, amid most profuse rains and
snow-storms and winds and frosts of winter; and again in summer
under a scorching sun. To this they submit because they will
have no part of the wicked Arian leaven. --Epistulae 242 (376)

So likewise, Traditional Catholics today often *“avoid the places of worship, as schools of impiety”, and endure persecutions for it. All this they submit to becayse *“they will have no part of the wicken liberal/modernist leaven”**.

To you this seems to be running away; but to those who know better it is the way to preserve the faith pure and undefiled in this docrinal and moral crisis we are living through. As Fr. Corapi once said “you can’t roll around in manuer without getting smelly”.

And the context in which he said it was in response to those who claim you should suffer, and “offer up” the liberalsim found at the average parish.

Who then is to decide what is doctrinally pure and what isn’t? Who then is to decide what is theologically sound and what isn’t? And who is then to judge who is a heretic and who isn’t? Is not the Pope and the bishops in union with him the ones who ALONE are vested with that authority?

Go ahead. Run away as fast and as far as you can. There are others running away as well, all in different directions. Luther did the same thing because he presumed to know better. Running away is like the physician who thought he can cure his patient by taking a vacation.
Click to expand...
 
RobedWithLight said:
Who then is to decide what is doctrinally pure and what isn’t? Who then is to decide what is theologically sound and what isn’t? And who is then to judge who is a heretic and who isn’t? Is not the Pope and the bishops in union with him the ones who ALONE are vested with that authority?
Click to expand...
If you know the faith, you can also judge what is and what is not heresy. A laymen cannot excommunicate someone for heresy, but he is certainly capable of distinguishing between the true faith and heresy.

For example, if a Priest was to stand up and say “Jesus was not true God”, would you write to Rome to find out if that was true? Or would you know it was heresy?

If you have a difficutly distinguishing the truth from error (which is what you indicated above), I would say you have been much more influenced by the crisis than you think.
Go ahead. Run away as fast and as far as you can.
Click to expand...
Whose running? Because I refuse to take part in the sacrileges and liberslism at the local parish, you think that is running?

On the contrary, it would be a sin (an occaision of sin) for me to subject myself to the errors and liberalism rampent in the local Churches.

I chose to follow the precedent of the saints who lived during the Arian crisis. No the ones who “suffered through” the Arians and became Semi-Arians themselves.

St. Athanasius, who was excommunicated by the Pope, banned from his diocese, and spent 17 years in exile during the Arian crisis (objectively and excommunicated schismatic), wrote the following to those faithful and wise Catholics who followed him:

Letter of Saint Athanasius to his flock: "May God console you! … What saddens you … is the fact that others have occupied the churches by violence, while during this time you are on the outside. It is a fact that they have the premises — but you have the Apostolic Faith. They can occupy our churches, but they are outside the true Faith. You remain outside the places of worship, but the Faith dwells within you. Let us consider: what is more important, the place or the Faith? The true Faith, obviously. Who has lost and who has won in the struggle — the one who keeps the premises or the one who keeps the Faith?

"True, the premises are good when the Apostolic Faith is preached there; they are holy if everything takes place there in a holy way …

"You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis.

"No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day.

"Thus, the more violently they try to occupy the places of worship, the more they separate themselves from the Church. They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray.

"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
 
paramedicgirl said:
The SSPX is not part of the Church? You better let them know. They pray for the Pope at every Mass.
Click to expand...
Not all of them, if you watch the priest at the Te igitur some of them dont bow their heads at the Pope’s name.
[edit] I mean they don’t say the Pope’s name. They don’t pray for him. Not all of them mind.
 
nice said:
Not all of them, if you watch the priest at the Te igitur some of them dont bow their heads at the Pope’s name.
[edit] I mean they don’t say the Pope’s name. They don’t pray for him. Not all of them mind.
Click to expand...
I am just curious how you know that? Is it just because they don’t bow their head? I don’t think I bow my head at that time, but I still pray for the Pope.

Is this something that you heard about, or read somewhere? Or have been to enough SSPX Masses that you picked up on this? And you would have to be pretty familiar with the Old Mass to know exactly when the Priest is praying for the Pope. It is only a split second.

Did you grow up SSPX?
 
I have always been to the Old Mass and only a few Novus Ordos when I really couldn’t make it to an Old Rite Mass. I went to an SSPX school. It is in the traditional rubrics that the priest bows his head at the Pope’s name. The congregation don’t have to.

Of course it’s possible that they do pray and just never bow 🤷
 
St. Basil: "Our afflictions are well known without my telling; the sound of them has gone forth over all Christendom. The dogmas of the Fathers are despised; apostolic traditions are set at nought; the discoveries of innovators hold sway in churches. Men have learned to be speculatists instead of theologians. The wisdom of the world has the place of honor, having dispossessed the glorying of the cross. The pastors are driven away. Grievous wolves http://www.gospelgrace.com/images/wolfsheep.jpgare brought in instead, and plunder the flock of Christ.
–Epistulae (cf. Appendix V of John Henry Cardinal Newman’s Arians of the Fourth Century)
Click to expand...
Basil…risk of being schismatic…春日野结衣免费观看,卡一卡二卡三免费网站,日本欧美成人高清电影,亚洲国产在线2020最新
 
St. Basil: "The danger is not confined to one Church… This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of Godliness are
overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the
ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and
the chief seat is now openly proposed as a reward for impiety; so
that he whose blasphemies are the more shocking, is more eligible for the oversight of the people. Priestly gravity has perished; there are none left to feed the Lord’s flock with knowledge; ambitious men are ever spending, in purposes of self-indulgence and bribery, possessions which they hold in trust for the poor. The accurate observation of the canons are no more; there is no restraint upon sin. Unbelievers laugh at what they see, and the weak are unsettled; faith is doubtful, ignorance is poured over their soulshttp://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/conf47.gif, because the adulterators of the word in wickedness imitate the truth. Religious people keep silence, but every blaspheming tongue is let loose. Sacred things are profaned; those of the laity who are sound in faith avoid the places of worship, as schools of impiety, and raise their hands in solitude with groans and tears to the Lord in heaven. --Epistulae 92 (ca. 372)
Click to expand...
Basil…Schismatic mindset…春日野结衣免费观看,卡一卡二卡三免费网站,日本欧美成人高清电影,亚洲国产在线2020最新
 
St. Basil: "Matters have come to this pass: the people have left their houses of prayer and assembled in the deserts, – a pitiable
sight; women and children, old men, and men otherwise inform,
wretchedly faring in the open air, amid most profuse rains and
snow-storms and winds and frosts of winter; and again in summer
under a scorching sun. To this they submit because they will
have no part of the wicked Arian leaven. --Epistulae 242 (376)
Click to expand...

Basil, Yuv Fallin into schism:eek:…春日野结衣免费观看,卡一卡二卡三免费网站,日本欧美成人高清电影,亚洲国产在线2020最新
U shoulda just shut and sung…but nooooooo…you had to preach against cunning wickedness!
U had to avoid the heretical majority! Yur never getin to sainthood that way, don’t ja know?!​

Now, for the way of the True catholic faithful:
Benedict XVI, Address, January 19, 2007: “During my memorable visit, I frequently expressed the respect of the Catholic Church for Islam and the esteem of the Pope and the faithful for Muslim believers, especially during my visit to Istanbul’s Blue Mosque… Dialogue, essential between religious Authorities at all levels, begins in daily life through the mutual respect and esteem that believers of every religion have for one another…” (L’Osservatore Romano, Feb. 14, 2007, p. 10)​

Hanging out at the Blu Mosque or hanging out at the SSPX chapel…it’s all about ecumenism…the mutual respect and esteem that believers of every religion have for one another…a beautiful doctrine.
 
nice said:
I have always been to the Old Mass and only a few Novus Ordos when I really couldn’t make it to an Old Rite Mass. I went to an SSPX school. It is in the traditional rubrics that the priest bows his head at the Pope’s name. The congregation don’t have to.

Of course it’s possible that they do pray and just never bow 🤷
Click to expand...
I’ve also noticed that some don’t bow their head when they say Jesus’ name, which they are supposed to do.

I wouldn’t necessarily conclude that they don’t pray for the Pope just because they don’t bow their head. Maybe some don’t (I don’t know), but I wouldn’t conclude that they aren’t praying for the Pope just because they don’t bow their head.

TNT: You are too funny. Thanks for the laugh.
 
Benedict XVI:
“The greatest evil of our time is Moral relativism.”

TNT:
“The greatest evil of our time is Catholics refusing to create enough Relatives.”
 
Pax_et_Caritas said:
I’ve also noticed that some don’t bow their head when they say Jesus’ name, which they are supposed to do.

I wouldn’t necessarily conclude that they don’t pray for the Pope just because they don’t bow their head. Maybe some don’t (I don’t know), but I wouldn’t conclude that they aren’t praying for the Pope just because they don’t bow their head.

TNT: You are too funny. Thanks for the laugh.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the compliment. But many say not to encourage me.

The SSPX policy is to pray FOR B16. The controversy comes when someone wants to pray for the INTENTIONS of B16…big difference.
 
TNT said:
Thanks for the compliment. But many say not to encourage me.

The SSPX policy is to pray FOR B16. The controversy comes when someone wants to pray for the INTENTIONS of B16…big difference.
Click to expand...
Careful now…
 
TNT said:
Thanks for the compliment. But many say not to encourage me.

The SSPX policy is to pray FOR B16. The controversy comes when someone wants to pray for the INTENTIONS of B16…big difference.
Click to expand...
I have heard one of my SSPX sisters say that they always pray for the pope, just not for his intentions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top