Returning to the Protestant Faith

[CWBetts]

No you didn’t miss it because I didn’t say - but now you ask:

In no particular order of importance and as briefly as possible:

The lack of evidence in catholics lives around me of their catholic faith - the sunday bragade.

The hypocracy - telling others how to live their lives while the statistics from the church’s own research shows the vast majority of catholics (in name) contracept, engage in premarital sex, abort, and are either ambivolent to, or plain don’t believe in transubstantiation.

The abuse - and the evil and contrived way the leaders of the church piled pain upon pain on the victims calling them liars, crooks, gold diggers, opportunists, while covering up hard evidence to the truth the victims told.

Papal infallability.

The Filioque.

Marionology.

RICA itself - it became apparent that the class was not about asking questions and getting answers, buut about being fed information which you signed up to. I had read more of the catechism than the catechist !!!

That will do for starters.

I don’t regret the time I spend in RICA. I met some good people. But it’s not for me.

So what to do now? Who knows.

I feel like I’m back in a hole - nightsights on - waiting and watching for the next sound, because that sound, and my reaction to it, will determine what happens next, and whether I will be dead or alive at the end of it.

Only this time it’s spiritual.

The faith (or lack thereof) of Catholics is no reason to enter (or leave) the Church. Every faith community has its own “Sunday Brigade”. What you must adhere to is the Truth that is taught. For me it was the faith of a single Catholic that inspired me to visit the Church, but her testimony alone would not have been enough to make me stay. Most of the other issues you brought up are too many to discuss all at once, but I can recommend a book: Does the Bible Really Say that? by Patrick Madrid does a very good job of defending the very criticisms you pose.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No you didn’t miss it because I didn’t say - but now you ask:

In no particular order of importance and as briefly as possible:

The lack of evidence in catholics lives around me of their catholic faith - the sunday brigade.

The hypocracy - telling others how to live their lives while the statistics from the church’s own research shows the vast majority of catholics (in name) contracept, engage in premarital sex, abort, and are either ambivolent to, or plain don’t believe in transubstantiation.

The abuse - and the evil and contrived way the leaders of the church piled pain upon pain on the victims calling them liars, crooks, gold diggers, opportunists, while covering up hard evidence to the truth the victims told.

Papal infallability.

The Filioque.

Marionology.

RICA itself - it became apparent that the class was not about asking questions and getting answers, buut about being fed information which you signed up to. I had read more of the catechism than the catechist !!!

That will do for starters.

I don’t regret the time I spend in RICA. I met some good people. But it’s not for me.

So what to do now? Who knows.

I feel like I’m back in a hole - nightsights on - waiting and watching for the next sound, because that sound, and my reaction to it, will determine what happens next, and whether I will be dead or alive at the end of it.

Only this time it’s spiritual.

Good luck finding a Church with none of the problems you list. All are run by ‘men’ and we know all are sinners.

Remember in John, chapter 6, many of Christ’s own disciples left Him and walked with Him no more. The Apostles continually questioned His teachings, Judas betrayed Him, Peter denied Him and Thomas doubted Him. There were, and have been, weak men throughout history, even from the beginning. That’s not going to change on this earth.

Look to Him and not those around you…pray for them.

 

[Lutheranteach]

If you are Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist…whatever and you are coming home from church feeling lost, empty, that you just aren’t finding what you need…AND you’ve studied and met with clergy and tried to find what it is that you feel just isn’t there without success…I would rather you go elsewhere and maintain some tie to Jesus CHrist, etc. than entirely walk away and turn your back on religion.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If you are Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist…whatever and you are coming home from church feeling lost, empty, that you just aren’t finding what you need…AND you’ve studied and met with clergy and tried to find what it is that you feel just isn’t there without success…I would rather you go elsewhere and maintain some tie to Jesus CHrist, etc. than entirely walk away and turn your back on religion.

Amen. The Holy Spirit does not give us different truths, but He does, however, lead us where we need to be according to our own strengths and weaknesses…and He knows all about us, more than we know about ourselves. The important thing is to continue seeking Him.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

What about Mormons? JWs? Unitarians? For that matter, a lot of Catholics on this forum seem to see more liberal Catholics as enemies of the Gospel.

I appreciate that you are an irenic person and would not attack others in this way. All I’m saying is that often this harsh language stems from a genuine conviction that certain ideas are false and destructive to people’s souls. Myself (and yes, this does sound very 18th-century!), I find it hard to get really worked up to indignation unless I think I’m dealing with a moral issue. Prosperity Gospel, forms of theology that justify racism and violence, these I can see denouncing in pretty vitriolic terms. And as folks around here know, I’m capable of getting rather vitriolic at times–usually when I think a moral issue is at stake, though sometimes just because I think people are not being logical (and that’s a character flaw on my part).

But if you hold to a conservative theology that teaches that people really can go to hell because of believing false doctrine, then attacking that false doctrine in a harsh and angry manner may indicate that you are a loving and virtuous person (if you are willing to grant that a virtuous person could hold such a theology in the first place, which I certainly am), not the reverse.

I would even say this about Christians of the past who advocated or engaged in the killing of heretics (St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Thomas More, John Calvin, etc.).

Edwin

I guess where I draw the line, so to speak, is anything outside of, what I would consider, anyway, traditional orthodox Christian belief. Basically, the Nicene and Apostles’ Creed: Trinity, Virgin Birth, Crucifixion, Bodily Resurrection and Ascension. Jesus died for our sins and rose again, He will come again to judge the living and the dead. The Bible is true, Jesus’ miracles really happened. I don’t agree with Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and OSAS, but I don’t think believing those things makes someone not a Christian. That’s what bothers me, I guess, that some people, like John MacArthur, think that by not ascribing to certain things, namely Sola Fide and Scriptura, a person isn’t a Christian, and the Church they attend is “an enemy of the Gospel”, despite proclaiming everything in the aforementioned Creeds.

And you’re right, I don’t normally “attack” people. IRL because I’m rather shy, and even though I know a lot, when put under pressure I go blank, and here because after I get all worked up reading something, I notice that someone else has already responded (a lot of times you! Thanks ). Things like racism and abortion will get me worked up, though, I guess b/c human lives are at stake in those cases, as well as souls.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No you didn’t miss it because I didn’t say - but now you ask:

So what to do now? Who knows.

Interesting Jonah the prophet of God had the same problem your experiencing with God’s people, and we all know what happened to Jonah?

Please don’t pass judgement of the body of Jesus Christ due to her members of the present who are in need of pruning. The Church has much fruit to pick from in her Martyrs and Saints if you want a completed fruit from the Catholic Church. I guarantee you these who lived a Catholic life on earth who now reside in heaven will not disappoint you, if you adhered to their living testimony and life example.

Look to these who have lived through the dark night of the soul as you are experiencing, you will not be disappointed. Especially if you try to live up the Catholic Christian standards they lived up too.

Peace be with you

 

[LindaSK]

No you didn’t miss it because I didn’t say - but now you ask:

In no particular order of importance and as briefly as possible:

The lack of evidence in catholics lives around me of their catholic faith - the sunday brigade.

The hypocracy - telling others how to live their lives while the statistics from the church’s own research shows the vast majority of catholics (in name) contracept, engage in premarital sex, abort, and are either ambivolent to, or plain don’t believe in transubstantiation.

The abuse - and the evil and contrived way the leaders of the church piled pain upon pain on the victims calling them liars, crooks, gold diggers, opportunists, while covering up hard evidence to the truth the victims told.

Papal infallability.

The Filioque.

Marionology.

RICA itself - it became apparent that the class was not about asking questions and getting answers, buut about being fed information which you signed up to. I had read more of the catechism than the catechist !!!

That will do for starters.

I don’t regret the time I spend in RICA. I met some good people. But it’s not for me.

So what to do now? Who knows.

I feel like I’m back in a hole - nightsights on - waiting and watching for the next sound, because that sound, and my reaction to it, will determine what happens next, and whether I will be dead or alive at the end of it.

Only this time it’s spiritual.

It sounds to me like part of the problem may have been with the specific church and RCIA program you were in. Not all RCIA programs are equal. Not all congregations are equal. Did you speak with the priest?

What drew you into RCIA in the first place? There must have been something in the teaching of the Church that you did agree with to make you consider RCIA .

The worst thing for any group of people is a bad example, or representative of that group. Sadly, that includes the Catholic Church. There are many good Catholics, who believe the teachings of the Church, and live in accordance with them

How about you? Do you agree with the Church’s teaching on contraception, pre-marital sex, abortion, transubstantiation? What does the Eucharist mean to you? Confession?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Amen. The Holy Spirit does not give us different truths, but He does, however, lead us where we need to be according to our own strengths and weaknesses…and He knows all about us, more than we know about ourselves. The important thing is to continue seeking Him.

AMEN!

 

[jmcrae]

So do you believe that former Catholics who join a non-Catholic Christian church go to hell? Is that what the Catholic Church teaches?

He didn’t say anything even close to that.

The Catholic Church has the Fullness of Truth, but it doesn’t have a monopoly on Heaven. A little baby who has been Baptized has all the Truth he needs to get to Heaven, if he dies, even though he knows absolutely nothing at all except that his parents love him very much.

Someone who has only got a very small portion of the Truth can still get to Heaven on that tiny amount - all they need is to be sincerely seeking the good. But it is better from an earthly point of view to be where you can find the whole Truth.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

He didn’t say anything even close to that.

The Catholic Church has the Fullness of Truth, but it doesn’t have a monopoly on Heaven. A little baby who has been Baptized has all the Truth he needs to get to Heaven, if he dies, even though he knows absolutely nothing at all except that his parents love him very much.

Someone who has only got a very small portion of the Truth can still get to Heaven on that tiny amount - all they need is to be sincerely seeking the good. But it is better from an earthly point of view to be where you can find the whole Truth.

Thank you for the clarification. So, there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church…even for non-Catholics and former Catholics who seek God with a sincere and repentant heart?

 

[jmcrae]

No you didn’t miss it because I didn’t say - but now you ask:

In no particular order of importance and as briefly as possible:

The lack of evidence in catholics lives around me of their catholic faith - the sunday brigade.

The hypocracy - telling others how to live their lives while the statistics from the church’s own research shows the vast majority of catholics (in name) contracept, engage in premarital sex, abort, and are either ambivolent to, or plain don’t believe in transubstantiation.

The abuse - and the evil and contrived way the leaders of the church piled pain upon pain on the victims calling them liars, crooks, gold diggers, opportunists, while covering up hard evidence to the truth the victims told.

Papal infallability.

The Filioque.

Marionology.

RICA itself - it became apparent that the class was not about asking questions and getting answers, buut about being fed information which you signed up to. I had read more of the catechism than the catechist !!!

That will do for starters.

I don’t regret the time I spend in RICA. I met some good people. But it’s not for me.

So what to do now? Who knows.

I feel like I’m back in a hole - nightsights on - waiting and watching for the next sound, because that sound, and my reaction to it, will determine what happens next, and whether I will be dead or alive at the end of it.

Only this time it’s spiritual.

It always baffles me that people give up on the Church because of people who aren’t actually following it. What’s up with that?

Just because someone else doesn’t believe in Transubstantiation or whatever doesn’t mean that you can’t.

Just because the volunteer who leads the RCIA doesn’t know as much about the Catechism as you do - I mean, what in the world does that have to do with anything at all? Why does this mean that you can’t become a Catholic? What it should mean is that, if what she knows of the Catechism is enough to be considered a good enough Catholic to be allowed to lead an RCIA, then the amount you know should be enough to get you a seat at Mass, don’t you think?

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you for the clarification. So, there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church…even for non-Catholics and former Catholics who seek God with a sincere and repentant heart?

Of course!

“A sincere and repentant heart” being the key phrase, of course. Someone who leaves the Church out of pride, or in order to justify himself in some kind of sin is in a whole different situation, of course.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Of course!

“A sincere and repentant heart” being the key phrase, of course. Someone who leaves the Church out of pride, or in order to justify himself in some kind of sin is in a whole different situation, of course.

Of course. A “sincere and repentant heart” is not a prideful heart. I am talking about someone who, after much prayer and study, believes that the Catholic Church has certain teachings that are in error. When one has been proud of being a Catholic and determines that they must leave the church, it is an extremely difficult and humbling experience. All pride is gone and that person trusts in nothing but Christ, because that’s all he/she has left.

 

[CWBetts]

Of course. A “sincere and repentant heart” is not a prideful heart. I am talking about someone who, after much prayer and study, believes that the Catholic Church has certain teachings that are in error. When one has been proud of being a Catholic and determines that they must leave the church, it is an extremely difficult and humbling experience. All pride is gone and that person trusts in nothing but Christ, because that’s all he/she has left.

But isn’t it a point of pride to say that you have determined the Church is in error? By saying such, you declare that you know more than the Church.

 

[jmcrae]

Of course. A “sincere and repentant heart” is not a prideful heart. I am talking about someone who, after much prayer and study, believes that the Catholic Church has certain teachings that are in error. When one has been proud of being a Catholic and determines that they must leave the church, it is an extremely difficult and humbling experience. All pride is gone and that person trusts in nothing but Christ, because that’s all he/she has left.

Did you find a Church that teaches no error?

 

[LindaSK]

Thank you for the clarification. So, there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church…even for non-Catholics and former Catholics who seek God with a sincere and repentant heart?

My priest puts it this way - “There is salvation outside the Church, but no salvation outside of Christ.”

 

[Guyonthestreet]

It always baffles me that people give up on the Church because of people who aren’t actually following it. What’s up with that?

Just because someone else doesn’t believe in Transubstantiation or whatever doesn’t mean that you can’t.

Just because the volunteer who leads the RCIA doesn’t know as much about the Catechism as you do - I mean, what in the world does that have to do with anything at all? Why does this mean that you can’t become a Catholic? What it should mean is that, if what she knows of the Catechism is enough to be considered a good enough Catholic to be allowed to lead an RCIA, then the amount you know should be enough to get you a seat at Mass, don’t you think?

I agree with you.

But it’s not a case of simple comparision.

Taken tagether, what it all says to me is that there is something profoundly wrong with the picture as a whole.

And that’s why presently I’m unable to carry on.
.
However, I continue to ask for and be grateful for, everyones prayers.

God knows I need them!!!

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Did you find a Church that teaches no error?

There is no perfect church, including the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, however, is the only one that claims “infallibility” in matters of faith and morals – a claim that cannot be proven.

 

[jmcrae]

There is no perfect church, including the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, however, is the only one that claims “infallibility” in matters of faith and morals – a claim that cannot be proven.

If it’s right, then it’s better to be Catholic.

If it’s wrong, then it’s not any worse to be Catholic than any other religion, since no other religion claims infallibility.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree with you.

But it’s not a case of simple comparision.

Taken tagether, what it all says to me is that there is something profoundly wrong with the picture as a whole.

The Church is a hospital for sinners - that’s why we have so many of them in our Church.