Returning to the Protestant Faith

[Masters_Servant]

I find it interesting that you close your post with the words the Priest uses at the beginning of Mass (yes, I know those words are from Scripture, yet some people insist the Mass isn’t Biblical!). Was that intentional, to be ecumencial?

I was also wondering if you became a fan of John MacArthur before or after you left the Church (noticing his quote in your signature)? He seems very anti-Catholic. I don’t think I’ve ever listened to him (stumbling upon his show accidently probably 10 times or so) where he didn’t either overtly or backhandedly take a jab at Catholicism.

In Christ,

Ellen

Catholics would call him anti-Catholic because he compares Biblical doctrine with Catholic doctrine and according to him they are not in agreement. He is a great expositor, verse by verse mainly, of the bible.

I believe for those seriously interested in apologetic’s and defending the Catholic doctrines and faith should study what he says concerning the priesthood, the mass, the worship of Mary and saints. All the sermons are free to download (40 years worth), free to read and free to just listen at the computer.

Why do I say this? Because he is very respected among true fundamental Calvinistic Evangelical circles, not a hypercalvinist. If you learn to refute him, then you have a BIG leg up on polishing ones Catholic apologetic skills against a formidable opponet. GTY.org is the site and just type in Catholic and view the results.

I am wondering the same as you are about before, during or after.

 

[Lutheranteach]

How do you do the consecration? Can elders do the consecration? Do you do it jug at at time or just what you need for individual services? Is it served in individual cups? What care do you take with the spillage? What do you do with the leftover ‘host’? Just interested because I have never been to a Lutheran Church.

Generally it done for what is needed at an individual service. Depending on the church (as it can vary) it can be done via a chalice, or in small individual cups. Leftover hosts are kept or disposed of as most Lutherans believe the true presence last only as long as, and only when the host, is actually being used in the administration of the sacrament. Consecration. That part of the service will seem very familiar. I’m cutting out music:

P: Our Lord Jesus Christ on the night when He was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, He broke it and gave it to the disciples and said: “Take, eat, this My body which is given for you.” He took the cup after supper, and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them, saying: "Drink of it, all of you; this cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the forgiveness of sins

P: Take, eat, this is the true body of our Lord and Savior, given into death for the forgiveness of your sins.

P: Take, drink: this is the true blood our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, shed for the forgiveness of your sins.

P: The body and blood of your Lord Jesus Christ strengthen and preserve you body and soul to life everlasting. Depart in peace

 

[Masters_Servant]

This seriously made me LOL because I go to a protestant school, and everyday in Bible our teacher opens us with prayer. And she’s like: Lord we just pray that you would just heal us and just help us come to know you and what you want to teach us. And we just thank you for giving us your son. Amen.

In all seriousness though, I pray for you and your decision. You’re always welcome home.

Pretty sad when you openly admit and find obvious pleasure and join in the ridiculing of prayer to God on the basis of what? Holiness? Perhaps a review of the last five versus in Romans 5 is in order, what do you think?

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

May God give you and the other poster mercy and forgiveness through His grace…amen

 

[Masters_Servant]

Generally it done for what is needed at an individual service. Depending on the church (as it can vary) it can be done via a chalice, or in small individual cups. Leftover hosts are kept or disposed of as most Lutherans believe the true presence last only as long as, and only when the host, is actually being used in the administration of the sacrament. Consecration. That part of the service will seem very familiar. I’m cutting out music:

P: Our Lord Jesus Christ on the night when He was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, He broke it and gave it to the disciples and said: “Take, eat, this My body which is given for you.” He took the cup after supper, and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them, saying: "Drink of it, all of you; this cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the forgiveness of sins

P: Take, eat, this is the true body of our Lord and Savior, given into death for the forgiveness of your sins.

P: Take, drink: this is the true blood our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, shed for the forgiveness of your sins.

P: The body and blood of your Lord Jesus Christ strengthen and preserve you body and soul to life everlasting. Depart in peace

Do they ever use the words of Paul from 1 Corinthians 11?
1 Corinthians 11:23-34
23 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; 24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye proclaim the Lord’s death till he come.

I am just wondering and any Catholic is encouraged to share their view as well. Although I was not asked my opinion; I do think it is interesting that Paul wasn’t there; yet gives clarification as to the symbolic nature of the Lord’s Supper, which is in verse 26. Verse 26 also is worth noting because it is proclaiming His death til he comes. Which is referring to His second coming; therefore how is it He comes to the wine and the wafer; seems like a glaring contradiction based on my very little understanding of the literal eating & drinking. So any thoughts about this I hope to gain a better understanding of what id taught by Catholics and I guess something similar by Lutherans.

 

[TrinityKnot]

Pretty sad when you openly admit and find obvious pleasure and join in the ridiculing of prayer to God on the basis of what? Holiness? Perhaps a review of the last five versus in Romans 5 is in order, what do you think?

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

May God give you and the other poster mercy and forgiveness through His grace…amen

Not at all. I love my Bible class and the chapel I go to. It’s just odd when I’ve been Catholic all of my life and I start to notice a pattern in their prayer. It’s like how we repeat the same prayers, except they go freestyle with a strong splash of “just”. Please don’t misunderstand me.

 

[LindaSK]

Do they ever use the words of Paul from 1 Corinthians 11?
1 Corinthians 11:23-34
23 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; 24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye proclaim the Lord’s death till he come.

I am just wondering and any Catholic is encouraged to share their view as well. Although I was not asked my opinion; I do think it is interesting that Paul wasn’t there; yet gives clarification as to the symbolic nature of the Lord’s Supper, which is in verse 26. Verse 26 also is worth noting because it is proclaiming His death til he comes. Which is referring to His second coming; therefore how is it He comes to the wine and the wafer; seems like a glaring contradiction based on my very little understanding of the literal eating & drinking. So any thoughts about this I hope to gain a better understanding of what id taught by Catholics and I guess something similar by Lutherans.

John 6:53-59

53
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54
Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
59
These things he said while teaching **in the synagogue **in Capernaum.

When Christ says, “Amen, Amen…”, He said something He really wanted us to pay attention to. The repetition here tells me that He ‘truly’ meant this literally, not in a symbolic sense. That He said it in the synagogue is important, too, or it would not be included in the account. I believe He meant for the literal reception of His body and blood in the form of the Eucharist.in His Church.

see: catholic-resources.org/John/Themes-Amen.htm

 

[adstrinity]

Do they ever use the words of Paul from 1 Corinthians 11?
1 Corinthians 11:23-34
23 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; 24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye proclaim the Lord’s death till he come.

Yes, sometimes the priest says something along those lines.

Typically what is said is:

Before He was given up to death, a death He freely accepted, He took bread, broke it, gave you thanks and praise and said, “Take this, all of you and eat it. This is My Body.” Likewise, after supper had ended, again he gave you thanks and praise, took the cup and said, "Take this, all of you and drink, this is My Blood, the Blood of the New and Everlasting Covenant which will be shed for you and for many, do this in rememberance of me.

Or something like that.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Not at all. I love my Bible class and the chapel I go to. It’s just odd when I’ve been Catholic all of my life and I start to notice a pattern in their prayer. It’s like how we repeat the same prayers, except they go freestyle with a strong splash of “just”. Please don’t misunderstand me.

I am not your judge, but when I see the explicit appearance of something that would have been better to keep to yourself then I will address it as I did. We all use poor judgment at times and poor choice of words from time to time because we are all sinners. I take you at face value for only God knows the hearts intent. IOW, since you said I misunderstood you; I take it as being true. God bless you.

 

[TrinityKnot]

I am not your judge, but when I see the explicit appearance of something that would have been better to keep to yourself then I will address it as I did. We all use poor judgment at times and poor choice of words from time to time because we are all sinners. I take you at face value for only God knows the hearts intent. IOW, since you said I misunderstood you; I take it as being true. God bless you.

Don’t worry, no harm done. Just a simple misunderstanding. God bless!

 

[Masters_Servant]

John 6:53-59

53
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54
Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
59
These things he said while teaching **in the synagogue **in Capernaum.

When Christ says, “Amen, Amen…”, He said something He really wanted us to pay attention to. The repetition here tells me that He ‘truly’ meant this literally, not in a symbolic sense. That He said it in the synagogue is important, too, or it would not be included in the account. I believe He meant for the literal reception of His body and blood in the form of the Eucharist.in His Church.

see: catholic-resources.org/John/Themes-Amen.htm

Thank you for the response and I am assuming this the Catholic position is based in part by John 6; is that a correct assumption? Thanks again for the post.

 

[SteveVH]

Do they ever use the words of Paul from 1 Corinthians 11?
1 Corinthians 11:23-34
23 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; 24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye proclaim the Lord’s death till he come.

I am just wondering and any Catholic is encouraged to share their view as well. Although I was not asked my opinion; I do think it is interesting that Paul wasn’t there; yet gives clarification as to the symbolic nature of the Lord’s Supper, which is in verse 26. Verse 26 also is worth noting because it is proclaiming His death til he comes. Which is referring to His second coming; therefore how is it He comes to the wine and the wafer; seems like a glaring contradiction based on my very little understanding of the literal eating & drinking. So any thoughts about this I hope to gain a better understanding of what id taught by Catholics and I guess something similar by Lutherans.

God is present to us in many ways; “where two or more are gathered”; in each other; “whatever you do to the least of these bretheren, you have done unto me” and, sacramentally in the Holy Eucharist to name a few. The fact that He will come again in glory does not negate His presence to us in the blessed sacrament.

While hanging on the cross His divinity was hidden in His humanity. In the Eucharist His glorified humanity and divinity is also hidden under the appearance and form of bread and wine. He is present wherever and whenever He desires. He is God. It is the way in which he remains with His Church always, as He promised.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy made a comment in a previous post that Catholics have a higher moral standards than Protestants; I really don’t know what to say other than it is presumptuous and a bit arrogant on his part, but I will also note it is not the experience I have had personally with him, so perhaps he had a source for that and did not reveal it or misspoke?

Dude!

Please show me where I ever made such a statement?

 

[Masters_Servant]

Yes, sometimes the priest says something along those lines.

Typically what is said is:

Before He was given up to death, a death He freely accepted, He took bread, broke it, gave you thanks and praise and said, “Take this, all of you and eat it. This is My Body.” Likewise, after supper had ended, again he gave you thanks and praise, took the cup and said, "Take this, all of you and drink, this is My Blood, the Blood of the New and Everlasting Covenant which will be shed for you and for many, do this in rememberance of me.

Or something like that.

Thanks for the response and may God bless you.

 

[Masters_Servant]

God is present to us in many ways; “where two or more are gathered”; in each other; “whatever you do to the least of these bretheren, you have done unto me” and, sacramentally in the Holy Eucharist to name a few. The fact that He will come again in glory does not negate His presence to us in the blessed sacrament.

While hanging on the cross His divinity was hidden in His humanity. In the Eucharist His glorified humanity and divinity is also hidden under the appearance and form of bread and wine. He is present wherever and whenever He desires. He is God. It is the way in which he remains with His Church always, as He promised.

Thanks for the response. I understand that the Catholic priest commands Jesus to come down from heaven and must respond as part of the mystical powers associated with the sacrament of Holy Orders. Do I understand this correctly and is there a good source to read more on this that is not to overwhelming? Thanks again and may God bless you.

 

[SteveVH]

Thanks for the response. I understand that the Catholic priest commands Jesus to come down from heaven and must respond as part of the mystical powers associated with the sacrament of Holy Orders. Do I understand this correctly and is there a good source to read more on this that is not to overwhelming? Thanks again and may God bless you.

Not really. The priest does not “command” God to do anything. The priest, acting in the person of Christ (in persona Christi), does what Jesus commanded His disciples to do. He repeats the words of Jesus Himself and calls upon the Holy Spirit to bring about the conversion which we call transubstantiation. The sacrifice of the Mass allows us to enter into and make present, today, the one sacrifice of Christ. It is Christ Himself, through the action of the priest, that causes the bread and wine to become His body and blood.

The priest has no “mystical powers”. He just does what Christ commanded us to do. It is the same in all of the sacraments. It is Christ who baptizes, annoints, forgives, and who causes the the simple elements of bread and wine to become his body, blood, soul and divinity.

In reading the Catechism, there is a great quote from St. Ambrose:

“Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails of that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed… Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.” (St. Ambrose, De myst, 9, 50; 52: PL 16, 405-407)

Not sure if I answered your question but I hope this helped a little.

By the way, you should read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, pages 347-348 for a true take on the Catholic belief.

 

[LindaSK]

Thank you for the response and I am assuming this the Catholic position is based in part by John 6; is that a correct assumption? Thanks again for the post.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church…
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt1art3.shtml#151

(Footnotes included below)
1335
The miracles of the multiplication of the loaves, when the Lord says the blessing, breaks and distributes the loaves through his disciples to feed the multitude, prefigure the superabundance of this unique bread of his Eucharist.**158 **The sign of water turned into wine at Cana already announces the Hour of Jesus’ glorification. It makes manifest the fulfillment of the wedding feast in the Father’s kingdom, where the faithful will drink the new wine that has become the Blood of Christ.159[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

1336
The first announcement of the Eucharist divided the disciples, just as the announcement of the Passion scandalized them: “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”**160 **The Eucharist and the Cross are stumbling blocks. It is the same mystery and it never ceases to be an occasion of division. “Will you also go away?”:161 the Lord’s question echoes through the ages, as a loving invitation to discover that only he has "the words of eternal life"162 and that to receive in faith the gift of his Eucharist is to receive the Lord himself.

The institution of the Eucharist****

1337
The Lord, having loved those who were his own, loved them to the end. Knowing that the hour had come to leave this world and return to the Father, in the course of a meal he washed their feet and gave them the commandment of love.163 In order to leave them a pledge of this love, in order never to depart from his own and to make them sharers in his Passover, he instituted the Eucharist as the memorial of his death and Resurrection, and commanded his apostles to celebrate it until his return; "thereby he constituted them priests of the New Testament."164

1338
The three synoptic Gospels and St. Paul have handed on to us the account of the institution of the Eucharist; St. John, for his part, reports the words of Jesus in the synagogue of Capernaum that prepare for the institution of the Eucharist: Christ calls himself the bread of life, come down from heaven.165

1339
Jesus chose the time of Passover to fulfill what he had announced at Capernaum: giving his disciples his Body and his Blood:

      Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the passover lamb had to be sacrificed. So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the passover meal for us, that we may eat it. . . ." They went . . . and prepared the passover. And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; for I tell you I shall not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.". . . . And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."**166**

1340
By celebrating the Last Supper with his apostles in the course of the Passover meal, Jesus gave the Jewish Passover its definitive meaning. Jesus’ passing over to his father by his death and Resurrection, the new Passover, is anticipated in the Supper and celebrated in the Eucharist, which fulfills the Jewish Passover and anticipates the final Passover of the Church in the glory of the kingdom.

“Do this in memory of me”

1341
The command of Jesus to repeat his actions and words “until he comes” does not only ask us to remember Jesus and what he did. It is directed at the liturgical celebration, by the apostles and their successors, of the memorial of Christ, of his life, of his death, of his Resurrection, and of his intercession in the presence of the Father.167

158 Cf. Mt 14:13-21; 15:32-39.
159 Cf. Jn 2:11; Mk 14:25.
160 Jn 6:60.
161 Jn 6:67.
162 Jn 6:68.
163 Cf. Jn 13:1-17; 34-35.
164 Council of Trent (1562): DS 1740.
165 Cf. Jn 6.
166 Lk 22:7-20; cf. Mt 26:17-29; Mk 14:12-25; 1 Cor 11:23-26.
167 Cf. 1 Cor 11:26

 

[Janet1983]

Are there any moral standards you disagree with?

Me personally?
Let me start with specific Catholic standards with which I agree:
I agree that abortion is wrong. Even after rape it is wrong in my opinion, because that would be punishing the child for the father’s crime.
I agree that birth control in itself is wrong. There is a good possibility of still conceiving even though she is on the pill resulting in a miscarriage.
I agree that fornication is wrong. Sex should be part of marriage.
I agree that doing scientific studies with an embryo is wrong.
I think that homosexual behavior is wrong. I do think that people are born with it, because we are all born in sin and with the capability to sin. That does not mean that we should live all of those sins. God can actually deliver someone from homosexuality if he chooses to. If he does not that person may still serve as a witness to other in how to live a godly live without falling into that sin through abstinence.
Well and then add all other Christian morals like loving one’s enemy, no theft, no murder, no adultery, etc.

I disagree with the notion that a marriage should not be valid if one of the partners is physically incapable of reproducing. (Well that’s not quite a moral thing, but if they want to live together it becomes one).
I think that NFP is a must for special cases. I think that someone who habitually miscarries (like me, I’ve had 4 in 2 years of marriage) should make sure that there is no conception until the problem is found and can be dealt with. Anything else would be unethical too.

Did I forget anything I might conflict with? I hope not, but for whatever reason I guess yes. We’ll see right?

To Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.

In Him,
Janet

 

[Lutheranteach]

Do they ever use the words of Paul from 1 Corinthians 11?
1 Corinthians 11:23-34
23 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; 24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye proclaim the Lord’s death till he come.

I am just wondering and any Catholic is encouraged to share their view as well. Although I was not asked my opinion; I do think it is interesting that Paul wasn’t there; yet gives clarification as to the symbolic nature of the Lord’s Supper, which is in verse 26. Verse 26 also is worth noting because it is proclaiming His death til he comes. Which is referring to His second coming; therefore how is it He comes to the wine and the wafer; seems like a glaring contradiction based on my very little understanding of the literal eating & drinking. So any thoughts about this I hope to gain a better understanding of what id taught by Catholics and I guess something similar by Lutherans.

Yes those words are also an option and are commonly used. There is, in a Lutheran service, a few options. They are in the hymnal and will be printed side by side with the word “OR” in between them

 

[SingleMomMonica]

If not the Eucharist, what is “spiritual food” to you?

I’m attending membership class for a non-denom church tonight. I’ve been attending for the last 6 months and just love it there. I am finally being fed spiritually again. (Catholic for 3 years)

 

[Good_Fella]

I honestly don’t. Even though I used to believe the teachings concerning the Eucharist with all of my heart for the longest time and even though I went to mass every day and to adoration as often as I could I am not convinced anymore and I do not miss it (receiving the Eucharist).

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

In Him,
Janet

The Jews quarrelled among themselves saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”…Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” … As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”
John 6, 52-58, 60, 66-68

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c.A.D. 110)

“Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 8:2

Therefore, brothers, hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
2 Thessalonians 2, 15

Pax Christu :harp: