reunification questions for my protestant brothers and sisters

[bengal_fan]

hey fellow protestants!!

we are here on a catholic forum for a number of different reasons i’m sure. some of us are here to try to convince some of the catholics here of the “error of their ways”. some are here to try to understand what catholics (on the ground) think, believe, and practice. some are here to purely debate as it is something they enjoy. and others are here because they are considering “crossing the tiber”. i am sure i have left out some other reasons for being here, but my point is that we are all here.

so i have a two questions for you all.

1. if the orthodox and catholic church re-united, how would that impact your view of “church” and they way it is supposed to be? would it make you more likely to re-unite as well?
2. what would it take for reunification? we all know that not everyone will be unified (or re-unified) in everything. even the catholic church has 23 different rites that are valid when it comes to worship. but what do you see as the major obstacles AND (please don’t forget to address this as i am not wanting to start a “bash catholicism” thread) what are your ideas for overcoming them?

i am sort of asking this in light of the movie “Bruce Almighty”. we all have moments of thinking that we could do a better job than God. on a lower (much lower) level i’m sure we think we would do a better job than our bosses at work. generally, we all have slipped into thinking that we would be better at a particular authority’s position than they are. so, if you were the pope, how would you re-unite all of Christendom?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Are you suggesting we all convert to catholocism and how we would go about doing this?

 

[moondweller]

hey fellow protestants!!

we are here on a catholic forum for a number of different reasons i’m sure. some of us are here to try to convince some of the catholics here of the “error of their ways”. some are here to try to understand what catholics (on the ground) think, believe, and practice. some are here to purely debate as it is something they enjoy. and others are here because they are considering “crossing the tiber”. i am sure i have left out some other reasons for being here, but my point is that we are all here.

so i have a two questions for you all.

1. if the orthodox and catholic church re-united, how would that impact your view of “church” and they way it is supposed to be? would it make you more likely to re-unite as well?
2. what would it take for reunification? we all know that not everyone will be unified (or re-unified) in everything. even the catholic church has 23 different rites that are valid when it comes to worship. but what do you see as the major obstacles AND (please don’t forget to address this as i am not wanting to start a “bash catholicism” thread) what are your ideas for overcoming them?

i am sort of asking this in light of the movie “Bruce Almighty”. we all have moments of thinking that we could do a better job than God. on a lower (much lower) level i’m sure we think we would do a better job than our bosses at work. generally, we all have slipped into thinking that we would be better at a particular authority’s position than they are. so, if you were the pope, how would you re-unite all of Christendom?

This question was presented on another recent thread. It went nowhere. What do you think the Reformation was about? Just another form of worship? If the Roman and Greek churches reunited it wouldn’t be because the Roman church made any compromises. It was made evident on the other thread that RC’ism does not budge on anything. It can’t. It claims its “teaching authority” to be infallible, hence, by definition, immutable. ANY compromises toward ANY kind of reunification cannot nor would not be on Rome’s part.

 

[bengal_fan]

This question was presented on another recent thread. It went nowhere. What do you think the Reformation was about? Just another form of worship? If the Roman and Greek churches reunited it wouldn’t be because the Roman church made any compromises. It was made evident on the other thread that RC’ism does not budge on anything. It can’t. It claims its “teaching authority” to be infallible, hence, by definition, immutable. ANY compromises toward ANY kind of reunification cannot nor would not be on Rome’s part.

there are parts of RCC practice that are not doctrine but discipline (such as celibacy for priests) which the church could change at anytime. could you disagree on some doctrines and still worship together and be united? i guess that is my question. also, would the compromise of the orthodox churches have any influence on your thinking about the RCC doctrines? i am not trying to convince anyone of anything here. i am happily protestant. i embrace the term in many ways because i disagree with the RCC on some issues. i am just curious as to opinions… really looking for debate (not that that was your intent either).

 

[bengal_fan]

Are you suggesting we all convert to catholocism and how we would go about doing this?

well, i have heard a number of protestant teachers say that if Christianity were to re-unite, it would be under the umbrella of catholicism. so i guess that would be my question, not suggestion. as i said above, i am protestant and not looking to convince anyone of anything (in this thread at least ).

 

[SyCarl]

there are parts of RCC practice that are not doctrine but discipline (such as celibacy for priests) which the church could change at anytime. could you disagree on some doctrines and still worship together and be united? i guess that is my question. also, would the compromise of the orthodox churches have any influence on your thinking about the RCC doctrines? i am not trying to convince anyone of anything here. i am happily protestant. i embrace the term in many ways because i disagree with the RCC on some issues. i am just curious as to opinions… really looking for debate (not that that was your intent either).

I don’t see how it would be possible to disagree on some doctrines and still be united. The Catholic position is that all its doctrines are infallibly true and that belief in them is required. To not agree with a doctrine put forward for belief is heresy if you are aware of the doctrine and don’t accept it.

Given the Catholic Church’s claim to be the one true church and its professed inability to change doctrine, I don’t see anyway I could unite with it as I disagree on a number of points. Such unity would be similar to that of those who are referred to as cafeteria Catholics.

 

[Deacon110]

there are parts of RCC practice that are not doctrine but discipline (such as celibacy for priests) which the church could change at anytime

I think this is incorrect. This was declared by the Pope long long ago that they were required to remain celibant. Priests are not allowed to marry.

could you disagree on some doctrines and still worship together and be united? i guess that is my question.

Absolutely 100%

also, would the compromise of the orthodox churches have any influence on your thinking about the RCC doctrines?

No, I still think there are bad interpretations that need correcting.

i am not trying to convince anyone of anything here. i am happily protestant. i embrace the term in many ways because i disagree with the RCC on some issues. i am just curious as to opinions… really looking for debate (not that that was your intent either).

I’m happy just worshipping GOD with Jesus as my Savior.

PEACE

 

[Mannyfit75]

Are you suggesting we all convert to catholocism and how we would go about doing this?

I would like to see that. I would really want to Protestants to believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ and received him at Holy Communion.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think this is incorrect. This was declared by the Pope long long ago that they were required to remain celibant. Priests are not allowed to marry.

Not completely true. There are married priest in the Latin Rite and the Eastern Rite. In the Latin Rite, former Protestant ministers from Lutheran and Anglican community are granted through the Pastoral Provision to be ordained priests. They attend the same seminary as celibate priest and the same form of education.

It is true that ordained priest cannot marry. However, in Eastern Rite, the man has to be already married before his ordination. The Catholic Church doesn’t forbid marriage. In fact, she elevate marriage to a Sacrament. Why? Because marriage is sacred.

Absolutely 100%

No disagreement there.

No, I still think there are bad interpretations that need correcting.

Doctrinal issues between EO and CC can be resolve and the Church can do it without compromising the truth.

I’m happy just worshipping GOD with Jesus as my Savior.

PEACE

Good for you. We Catholics received Jesus on a Daily basis (for those who could attend Daily Mass). I also pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I would like to see that. I would really want to Protestants to believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ and received him at Holy Communion.

Hi Manny,

As catholics would But, because of what the other posters stated, The CC cannot admit any error so to reunite would be impossible.

While prots will not claim infallibility–we will not forsake the truth of the bible just for the sake of all being under one denom.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hi Manny,

As catholics would But, because of what the other posters stated, The CC cannot admit any error so to reunite would be impossible.

The CC can’t error period. There has been dialogue between the Eastern Orthodox Church and CC. Overtime, these issues will be worked out through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I don’t think the truth itself will be compromised. The Churches will have to come up with words which can be agreed upon.

I look for the day when the EO and CC will be One Church like it was before the Schism.

While prots will not claim infallibility–we will not forsake the truth of the bible just for the sake of all being under one denom.

That is a problem with most Protestants. They consider the CC as too legalistic as someone claimed. The Catholic Church has never compromised the truth. She has upheld it. That is why the Church is called the pillar and bulwark of truth.

When it comes to moral and faith, the CC has been consistent with her teachings. It has remain unchanged. Infallibility itself is the preservation of error by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rolltide]

I think this is incorrect. This was declared by the Pope long long ago that they were required to remain celibant. Priests are not allowed to marry.

No, you’re wrong. Celibacy IS a discipline of the church that is changeable (although the ban on women priests is definitive). Although celibacy became the norm around the 4th century, it did not become mandatory for the Latin rite until the Cluny Reform Movement became popular. The pope then instituted mandatory celibacy in the 11th century, and even then, ONLY for the Latin Rite. Most Eastern Catholic Churches still allow married priests, and even in the Latin rite, married priests are allowed on a case-by-case basis (usually they are ministers that convert from Anglicanism, Lutheranism, or Methodism, but not always). You may be shocked to know that there are currently around 800 married priests within the US alone.

To be even more specific, the Catholic Church allows married priests, but it does not allow priests to get married. To be a married priest in any rite, you must have gotten married BEFORE your ordination. If your wife dies, you are not permitted to get remarried except in the extremely rare case that you are widowed with small children to take care of. Also, married priests are not required to refrain from sex; this has nothing to do with the celibacy restrictions imposed by the church. Finally, a married priest cannot rise above the position of priest. He cannot become a bishop.

 

[Mannyfit75]

True, priestly celibacy is a discipline and it can changed if the Magisterium wants to change it.

 

[Deacon110]

No, you’re wrong. Celibacy IS a discipline of the church that is changeable (although the ban on women priests is definitive). Although celibacy became the norm around the 4th century, it did not become mandatory for the Latin rite until the Cluny Reform Movement became popular. The pope then instituted mandatory celibacy in the 11th century, and even then, ONLY for the Latin Rite. Most Eastern Catholic Churches still allow married priests, and even in the Latin rite, married priests are allowed on a case-by-case basis (usually they are ministers that convert from Anglicanism, Lutheranism, or Methodism, but not always). You may be shocked to know that there are currently around 800 married priests within the US alone.

To be even more specific, the Catholic Church allows married priests, but it does not allow priests to get married. To be a married priest in any rite, you must have gotten married BEFORE your ordination. If your wife dies, you are not permitted to get remarried except in the extremely rare case that you are widowed with small children to take care of. Also, married priests are not required to refrain from sex; this has nothing to do with the celibacy restrictions imposed by the church. Finally, a married priest cannot rise above the position of priest. He cannot become a bishop.

You just confirmed my point. Priests cannot marry. Therefore Priests cannot have sex therefore they are required to be celibant.

So I’m not wrong. You’re citing technicalities.

 

[EmergencyOps]

…some are here to try to understand what catholics (on the ground) think

Awesome phrase. It makes a lot of sense.

1. if the orthodox and catholic church re-united, how would that impact your view of “church” and they way it is supposed to be? would it make you more likely to re-unite as well?

It wouldn’t change my opinion much. I might think that there is hope for reunification, but Catholic vs. Orthodox is a smaller divide than Catholic vs. Protestant.

1. what would it take for reunification? we all know that not everyone will be unified (or re-unified) in everything. even the catholic church has 23 different rites that are valid when it comes to worship. but what do you see as the major obstacles AND (please don’t forget to address this as i am not wanting to start a “bash catholicism” thread) what are your ideas for overcoming them?

It would take the Catholic Church to loosen their stance. For Catholics, ecumenism equates to “red rover, red rover, you gotta come over”. Ecumenism should be meeting in the middle, not drawing a line in the sand. As you mentioned Catholics have different rites and many churches that are, to this day, splitting off from them. Those loose states and confederated states would need to unify for their own sake as well. I don’t see it happening, ever. Too many differences and too many hard heads.

-Mark

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The CC can’t error period

.Because of this exact statement is why their will never be unity.

There has been dialogue between the Eastern Orthodox Church and CC. Overtime, these issues will be worked out through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I don’t think the truth itself will be compromised. The Churches will have to come up with words which can be agreed upon.

I look for the day when the EO and CC will be One Church like it was before the Schism.

I dont know much about this. But, when you have one group that cannot or will not compromise, then there can be no discussions

That is a problem with most Protestants. They consider the CC as too legalistic as someone claimed.

I consider alot of people I know legalistic–and they are not catholic. Actually all the catholics I know are not legalistic at all. If anything they are cafeteria catholics at best.

The Catholic Church has never compromised the truth. She has upheld it. That is why the Church is called the pillar and bulwark of truth.

When it comes to moral and faith, the CC has been consistent with her teachings. It has remain unchanged. Infallibility itself is the preservation of error by the Holy Spirit.

Well none of what you said makes it the truth just an organization that is probably too full of pride to see past itself.
I say that with love:thumbsup:

 

[Hisalone]

We are united “In Christ”. We will not be united any other way.

 

[Deacon110]

True, priestly celibacy is a discipline and it can changed if the Magisterium wants to change it.

But Manny a Priest cannot marry therefore they have to be celibant as the church does not allow sex outside of a marriage. They can’t change the celibacy discipline without changing the poilcy of marriage. That makes no sense. By your implication the magisterium can change just the stance on celibacy. OK so then what? Priests can have sex without being married?? Thats a complete contradiction of RCC policy.

 

[Mannyfit75]

.Because of this exact statement is why their will never be unity.

That doesn’t seem to be an issue recently between EO and CC since the Ravenna Meeting on the issue on the Papal Primacy in the ECF. Many of the EO patriarchs have been optimistic towards uniting with Rome and have said that this will take time, patience, and prayer to make it into a reality.

I dont know much about this. But, when you have one group that cannot or will not compromise, then there can be no discussions

Let me give you a quote from Statement of Catholic-Orthodox Commission Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church:

1. In the history of the East and of the West, at least until the ninth century, a series of prerogatives was recognised, always in the context of conciliarity, according to the conditions of the times, for the protos or kephale at each of the established ecclesiastical levels: locally, for the bishop as protos of his diocese with regard to his presbyters and people; regionally, for the protos of each metropolis with regard to the bishops of his province, and for the protos of each of the five patriarchates, with regard to the metropolitans of each circumscription; and universally, for the bishop of Rome as protos among the patriarchs. This distinction of levels does not diminish the sacramental equality of every bishop or the catholicity of each local Church.

1. It remains for the question of the role of the bishop of Rome in the communion of all the Churches to be studied in greater depth. What is the specific function of the bishop of the “first see” in an ecclesiology of koinônia and in view of what we have said on conciliarity and authority in the present text? How should the teaching of the first and second Vatican councils on the universal primacy be understood and lived in the light of the ecclesial practice of the first millennium? These are crucial questions for our dialogue and for our hopes of restoring full communion between us.

So it is apparent, the call of unity between West and Eastern Christian is much deeper than one should expect. I highly recommend, Protestants look into these talks and look into their own heart that this call all mean. I think the CC and EO is answering Jesus’ prayer call for unity.

I consider alot of people I know legalistic–and they are not catholic. Actually all the catholics I know are not legalistic at all. If anything they are cafeteria catholics at best.

Caferia Catholics needs to be re-evangelized and re-catechized.

Well none of what you said makes it the truth just an organization that is probably too full of pride to see past itself.
I say that with love:thumbsup:

I speak the truth. None of what I said is made up. It’s been handed down to me by the CC since the time of the Apostle. I don’t compromise the truth either.

 

[EmergencyOps]

Actually all the catholics I know are not legalistic at all. If anything they are cafeteria catholics at best.

The OP’s statement about “Catholics on the ground” really hit the nail on the head. My Catholic friends are, of course, “on the ground” and they are very cafeteria Catholic. For them, its more about what feels good than it is about what the Church really teaches. Like the Pew study earlier this week, many people are changing religions/denom’s and escaping the beliefs they were taught while growing up.

-Mark