Reuters: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized

[CompSciGuy]

As a middle-class person, certain government programs that were forced on the people have marginalized me. I have very little “discretionary income,” and Pope Francis has made it very clear to the rich about helping the poor. Under ten per cent of the people own or control most of the US and we’ve gone from millionaires to billionaires. As one comedian who I otherwise can’t stand put it: “And for those billionaires going for your second billion, what are you going to do with it? Start your own space program?”

After reviewing my life’s “want list,” I’ve gone back to what I was taught as a teenager: “If you can’t afford it, you just do without.” So, I do. I rarely by “extras.” And there’s “Live within your means.” I’m not going to bed at night with a lot of debt hanging over my head and without Plans A, B, C and D about how to bring it down or stop it from increasing.

In the 1990s, I don’t know what happened. I often heard people “complain” that their credit card was charged to the max. Did their credit card decide that even though they already had stuff, they needed even more stuff? I remember going shopping before Christmas at an (fake word) upscale part of town. The mall parking lots were filled as far as the eye could see. Once inside, I had to move sideways to get past people.

Meanwhile, Church parking lots were almost empty. I recall seeing a Church sign at the the time: “Ch_rch. The only thing missing is U.”

I don’t need a 4G (obsolete next week), phone/tablet/computer. I have a cell phone that I use only as a phone. I don’t care about any other features it has. I’m not going to pay an extra $10.00 a month for this or that either.

Ed

Good for you… I am sure you will find that with your attitude and lifestyle you will find life to be more simple, and will find life more enjoyable and focus on the things that matter. In the long run, I am sure you will be happier than you would have been if you had chosen the ways of consumerism.

I feel myself becoming more resistant to media. So many people my age binge watch TV shows and think that this is normal behavior. It astounds me how much propaganda there is in TV. Every time I watch a show today (which is mostly just when I’m at my in-laws’ house) I feel like I am being beaten over the head with some message telling me what to believe, what my morality should be like, what I should be buying or how I should be living my life. It makes me defensive and suspicious of everything on the TV. I’m tired of the group think and the mind-control brainwashing power of the TV.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

Some of the feelings of conservatives being marginalized may be due to what they consider a Pope is supposed to be.

We have been blessed with the last two popes, both of whom were scholars: John Paul 2 had 2 PhDs, one in theology and one in philosophy; and Benedict has been considered by many to be the brightest theologian alive. And given the fact that combined, they reigned for 35 years, it is likely that this basically amounted to the adult lifetime of many of those conservatives; that is, they knew nothing different.

Given the background of these two popes, it is highly likely that the press had much less access to either of them. Additionally, coming from the intellectual backgrounds, it is easy to see that neither of them were likely to have a relaxed, casual approach to the press.

Both of them were also very different from at least three of the four prior popes - John Paul 1 being somewhat of an enigma to the world if for no other reason than his extremely short tenure.

Francis comes from a very different background; a Jesuit, with a Franciscan spirituality, and an active, hands-on bishop and archbishop/Cardinal in a country with some very difficult politics, and a bishop who was “among the sheep”, and particularly among the poor. Add to this his very strong antipathy for clericalism - a problem both among the clergy and the laity, and you have someone who shuns a bureaucratic mindset, and likewise shuns pomp and circumstance. Small details such as his shoes and living quarters indicate a pope who views his position as shepherd, not as theologian in residence, or philosopher in residence, or ruler of Christendom, or the source and seat of power.

I by no means want in any way to disparage John Paul or Benedict - I think they were both awesome. They delivered what was sorely needed at their time.

But if you open the New Testament and read the passages of what Christ said, according to the synoptics, He was not giving forth an esoteric elucidation of moral theology. He was a hands-on shepherd amidst the flock, and I see Francis in the same light. If Francis does not offer a dissertation on Mercy, and conservatives are upset about that, then I would have to presume that some of them would be upset with Christ too, as both of them are going to give short, direct and to-the-point comments.

I don’t find what Francis has to say disconcerting, in part because I don’t get my news about his comments from the secular press; I get it from sources true to the Magisterium and with no ax to grind.

IMHO, some are upset because this pope does not fit their image of what we need. I find him very challenging, because he is not drawing me into an intellectual discussion of conversion; he is drawing me into conversion itself. And calling me into conversion consists in part in pointing out to me how I need to change. Some people are not particularly comfortable in that space, and would much rather move to an intellectual world of theory. And that is not where Francis is.

Perhaps we all need to put aside our preconceived notions, and pay attention to the prophetic voice in our midst. And perhaps we need to criticize less how the message is delivered, and more to what the message actually is.

Lovely!!!

Blessings,
Stephie

 

[CompSciGuy]

Look at it from the Psychological Warfare point of view:

A) One hour in Church a week.

B) 24/7 access to secular visuals and words about the abnormal, the obscene and the irrational - mostly presented as cool, fun or pleasurable.

Just keep that in mind before you turn on the TV, the radio or the internet. The same applies to going out to catch a movie. The message is: "Live wrong, accept what we tell you to accept, and dysfunctional living and sexuality is fun, average or neutral. And what do you mean ‘You don’t like profanity?’ We do and so should you.

Get rid of your guilt, your shame and thoughts about sin.

Remember the above. Meditating on the bad/immoral is what it boils down to. The media is a propaganda machine, except for the sports (for now).

Ed

lll

Amen… lol you and I think alike. I just got done replying to your previous post and said this same thing before I saw this post. The amount of control the media has over our culture is phenomenal. It is so hard to watch TV or a move without feeling like it is trying to sell you a worldview.

 

[ringil]

If one doesn’t think that American conservatives are having some problems with Pope Francis they should come onto CAF and discover for themselves.

Now "SHOULD American conservatives have such a problem- that’s another matter entirely.

 

[Darryl1958]

It is true that some conservative Catholics here have registered having some difficulty with Pope Francis. More than a few, but definitely not all, have been critical of some of the political stances that either the Pope or the media project him as taking.

It is just as true that liberal Catholics, and liberals in general, have mainly registered in the ‘pleased to giddy’ range in their acceptance of most of pronouncements.

 

[commenter]

It is true that some conservative Catholics here have registered having some difficulty with Pope Francis. More than a few, but definitely not all, have been critical of some of the political stances that either the Pope or the media project him as taking.

It is just as true that liberal Catholics, and liberals in general, have mainly registered in the ‘pleased to giddy’ range in their acceptance of most of pronouncements.

Keep in mind that Pope Francis talks “on the record” far more than other recent popes. You could select Francis quotes to support many different agendas, as long as you omit other kinds of Francis quotes that go against your theme.

** Conservatives keep complaining about the media, then they keep consuming enormous amount of news media. **

The Media’s agenda with St. JP II was to depict him as a narrow minded conservative. Thus they omitted anything he said that went against their agenda. The Media’s agenda with Pope Francis is to depict him as the one good, compassionate guy in a rigid, heartless system. Thus, they omit much of what he teaches, and exaggerate some of what he teaches.

After his death, they will go on for years making him out to be a martyr for the Left, the way they misrepresented Pope John XXIII for decades. There will be books hinting how sinister right wing forces in the Vatican may have caused his death, the way they did with Pope John Paul I. In any event, the media will go on for years describing his papacy as a brief “Spring” in the Catholic Church, that he was compassionate but defeated by the forces of reaction. They will omit much of what he taught:

• the reality of Satan, impacting on societies and social trends;
• the reality of Satan impacting on individuals; his exorcisms
• his opposition to gay marriage and legalization of abortion;
• his emphasis on the sacrament of confession
• his emphasis on the role of the papacy itself - removed a bad bishop, unafraid to tell bishops in another country they need to reform
• his willingness to take direct action as pope - for instance, his granting to laity the right to go to confession to SSPX priests during the year of mercy (rather than letting each conference of bishops decide)

 

[Darryl1958]

Keep in mind that Pope Francis talks “on the record” far more than other recent popes. You could select Francis quotes to support many different agendas, as long as you omit other kinds of Francis quotes that go against your theme.

Of course you could.
And Catholic teaching supports a conservative agenda regardless of who is the pope. The teaching is eternal; the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

But the medium is the message. The content of the Catholic message takes on the form of the vessel that is carrying it. For the media, what was once seen as foul and rancid and oppressively archaic when delivered by former popes, has now become good for food, and pleasing to the eye and filled with a wisdom to be coveted.

We can all argue about what the nature of the current pope is vis-a-vis the medium through which we receive him, but that does not change the fact that Catholic conservatives remain wary, and for Catholic liberals and the world of the left, he is a wondrous being.

 

[jimcav]

Keep in mind that Pope Francis talks “on the record” far more than other recent popes. You could select Francis quotes to support many different agendas, as long as you omit other kinds of Francis quotes that go against your theme.

** Conservatives keep complaining about the media, then they keep consuming enormous amount of news media. **

I’m not sure conservative Catholics are really complaining about the media. I believe they are actually complaining about the confusing and confounding statements being made by the Pope himself and wondering if he really means to make the changes he hints at.

And I think even the more liberal Catholics are confounded to, as his statements don’t really seem to lead to the changes they want or the changes the Pope seems to suggest.

So IMHO, this isn’t the medias fault at all…

 

[JPUSC]

I’m not sure conservative Catholics are really complaining about the media. I believe they are actually complaining about the confusing and confounding statements being made by the Pope himself and wondering if he really means to make the changes he hints at.

And I think even the more liberal Catholics are confounded to, as his statements don’t really seem to lead to the changes they want or the changes the Pope seems to suggest.

So IMHO, this isn’t the medias fault at all…

 

[CompSciGuy]

I’m not sure conservative Catholics are really complaining about the media. I believe they are actually complaining about the confusing and confounding statements being made by the Pope himself and wondering if he really means to make the changes he hints at.

And I think even the more liberal Catholics are confounded to, as his statements don’t really seem to lead to the changes they want or the changes the Pope seems to suggest.

So IMHO, this isn’t the medias fault at all…

Yep, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

In the meantime there are going to be a huge number people in the Church who rail against these conservatives for being “pharisaical” for caring about the truth, and praising pope Francis for challenging us (since “challenging” is a more positive word than “confusing”) and for being a “man of the people” and laud him for being a bridge for non-Catholics (even though the reason why so many non-Catholics like him is precisely because they believe he is pro-gay marriage, pro-contraception and pro-heresy).

I don’t blame the media either. Considering the words he chooses, I can’t blame them for interpreting them the way they do. When I read the interviews, it makes me scratch my head, and I am reading them as a Catholic faithful to the magesterium.

Personally, I don’t think Pope Francis is against traditional Church teaching. I have heard his statements, he says he is a son of the Church. I just don’t think he is a good interviewer. That does not necessarily make him a bad pope, it is just a recipe for confusion on the part of the non-Catholic world and frustration on the part of the Catholic world. Many argue that we should not criticize his off-the-cuff style, and say we shouldn’t expect him to carefully think through what he says at each interview. I agree that it is kind of silly that people hang on his every word. But the truth is, when he talks to the news media, the world is his audience. The last time I checked, when a person communicates a message that they do not intend, it is called a miscommunication. And miscommunications are a bad thing.

 

[otjm]

Yep, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

In the meantime there are going to be a huge number people in the Church who rail against these conservatives for being “pharisaical” for caring about the truth, and praising pope Francis for challenging us (since “challenging” is a more positive word than “confusing”) and for being a “man of the people” and laud him for being a bridge for non-Catholics (even though the reason why so many non-Catholics like him is precisely because they believe he is pro-gay marriage, pro-contraception and pro-heresy).

I don’t blame the media either. Considering the words he chooses, I can’t blame them for interpreting them the way they do. When I read the interviews, it makes me scratch my head, and I am reading them as a Catholic faithful to the magesterium.

Personally, I don’t think Pope Francis is against traditional Church teaching. I have heard his statements, he says he is a son of the Church. I just don’t think he is a good interviewer. That does not necessarily make him a bad pope, it is just a recipe for confusion on the part of the non-Catholic world and frustration on the part of the Catholic world. Many argue that we should not criticize his off-the-cuff style, and say we shouldn’t expect him to carefully think through what he says at each interview. I agree that it is kind of silly that people hang on his every word. But the truth is, when he talks to the news media, the world is his audience. The last time I checked, when a person communicates a message that they do not intend, it is called a miscommunication. And miscommunications are a bad thing.

I would tend to disagree with you, at least in part. And if you want an example, I will give you one: his comment about “who am I to judge”.

When a fuller text was provided, he did not make a statement backing what the secular press wanted; he simply reiterated what the Church has been teaching well before he became Pope - and this is just one example. The secular press did not give the context of his statement, but simply quoted in an extremely slanted and minimalist way, to act as if he were okaying the homosexual lifestyle. His comment in context was anything but that.

Conservatives need to get a grip. The secular press is having a field day because a) they have greater access to him than they did to the last two popes; and b) because he is not withdrawn and making scholarly statements, they can pick and choose whatever stirs the pot the most. All the while, the secular press leads the conservatives around by the nose; the press is having a field day, and when the conservatives express their angst, it only confirms to the secular press that they - the press - are artfully and successfully stirring the pot. Contrary to the angst of the conservatives, nothing is changing in terms of doctrine and morals.

 

[pristine2]

I am a “conservative Catholic” and I do not at all feel marginalized by our Holy Father.

Same here.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I would tend to disagree with you, at least in part. And if you want an example, I will give you one: his comment about “who am I to judge”.

When a fuller text was provided, he did not make a statement backing what the secular press wanted; he simply reiterated what the Church has been teaching well before he became Pope - and this is just one example. The secular press did not give the context of his statement, but simply quoted in an extremely slanted and minimalist way, to act as if he were okaying the homosexual lifestyle. His comment in context was anything but that.

Conservatives need to get a grip. The secular press is having a field day because a) they have greater access to him than they did to the last two popes; and b) because he is not withdrawn and making scholarly statements, they can pick and choose whatever stirs the pot the most. All the while, the secular press leads the conservatives around by the nose; the press is having a field day, and when the conservatives express their angst, it only confirms to the secular press that they - the press - are artfully and successfully stirring the pot. Contrary to the angst of the conservatives, nothing is changing in terms of doctrine and morals.

I don’t think most of these conservatives, at least those who understand the role of the pope and the way dogma works, are worried about a change in doctrine and morals. I think the thing that conservatives are worried about are, for example, the lady that my friend met at a ministry event who said her lesbian daughter was getting married soon and who said she was so glad that Pope Francis had paved the way for this moment. You can chalk this up to bad catechesis, but there is already a whole lot of that nowadays. Add to that confusing statements that are easy to misinterpret and it is like quicksand. You argue that previous popes were withdrawn and restricted themselves to scholarly statements. Maybe there is a reason for that. Maybe those reasons are pastoral. I don’t agree that we should emphasize openness above catechesis, considering how rampant error is in the Church today.

 

[jimcav]

Conservatives need to get a grip. The secular press is having a field day because a) they have greater access to him than they did to the last two popes; and b) because he is not withdrawn and making scholarly statements, they can pick and choose whatever stirs the pot the most. All the while, the secular press leads the conservatives around by the nose; the press is having a field day, and when the conservatives express their angst, it only confirms to the secular press that they - the press - are artfully and successfully stirring the pot. Contrary to the angst of the conservatives, nothing is changing in terms of doctrine and morals.

Conservatives don’t need to “get a grip”.

Everyone, conservatives and liberals, need clear, concise, well thought out statements from our Holy Father. Through his off-the-cuff remarks, he has given them reasons for concern. I don’t blame the press. We are in a 24/7, hyper information, sound byte society, where most people no longer read newspapers or long magazine articles to get the full story. Many get their news from rather dubious sources, where its a quick blurb, and onto the next story. So the press is providing people with what they want - sound byte information. So everyone in public life must be more careful.

Blaming the press is just to easy…

 

[commenter]

I don’t think most of these conservatives, at least those who understand the role of the pope and the way dogma works, are worried about a change in doctrine and morals. I think the thing that conservatives are worried about are, for example, the lady that my friend met at a ministry event who said her lesbian daughter was getting married soon and who said she was so glad that Pope Francis had paved the way for this moment. You can chalk this up to bad catechesis, but there is already a whole lot of that nowadays. Add to that confusing statements that are easy to misinterpret and it is like quicksand. You argue that previous popes were withdrawn and restricted themselves to scholarly statements. Maybe there is a reason for that. Maybe those reasons are pastoral. I don’t agree that we should emphasize openness above catechesis, considering how rampant error is in the Church today.

I agree with your points. Let me add some.
He comes from a different hemisphere.
He is trying to reach people in different countries, or those from Western countries who were impervious to Pope Benedict.
I have heard some of the same stuff you reported, where people attribute nonsense to the influence of this pope. He will get credited/blamed for everything good/bad that happens now. I suppose we will hear how he was the first pope since Peter to suggest feeding the hungry, and that he restored the sacrament of confession after centuries of neglect, and he will be used for justification for other good and evil trends. The nonsense and good stuff might have happened with or without Francis. A lot was already trending when he became Pope, and they are just putting his name on it.

The most radical pope in the last century was Pope Pius XI, who put the Catholic Faith on radio, an instrument used to sell toothpaste! People muttered that Pius X never needed to use radio. I would like it if we could have an era suited to a pope like Pius XII, a president like Ike, and world press that fostered objective, thorough news coverage, not sound bites, where Pope Benedict did not feel the need to go on Twitter. But we don’t live in the Truman era, we live in the era of The Truman Show. I suspect St Pius X would have used radio, Twitter, etc, if he had lived in an era where those things were being used.

So Francis takes some gambles in his style, as did Pius XI going on the radio alongside jingles for mundane products, and St. JP II visiting a mosque. Let’s pray for him.

 

[TMC]

Conservatives don’t need to “get a grip”.

Everyone, conservatives and liberals, need clear, concise, well thought out statements from our Holy Father. Through his off-the-cuff remarks, he has given them reasons for concern. I don’t blame the press. We are in a 24/7, hyper information, sound byte society, where most people no longer read newspapers or long magazine articles to get the full story. Many get their news from rather dubious sources, where its a quick blurb, and onto the next story. So the press is providing people with what they want - sound byte information. So everyone in public life must be more careful.

Blaming the press is just to easy…

In many cases the problem is not that the Pope’s statements aren’t clear or concise. The problem is that he is saying things people don’t want to hear. Its not that they don’t understand, its that they don’t want to understand because they disagree.

 

[otjm]

I don’t think most of these conservatives, at least those who understand the role of the pope and the way dogma works, are worried about a change in doctrine and morals. I think the thing that conservatives are worried about are, for example, the lady that my friend met at a ministry event who said her lesbian daughter was getting married soon and who said she was so glad that Pope Francis had paved the way for this moment. You can chalk this up to bad catechesis, but there is already a whole lot of that nowadays. Add to that confusing statements that are easy to misinterpret and it is like quicksand. You argue that previous popes were withdrawn and restricted themselves to scholarly statements. Maybe there is a reason for that. Maybe those reasons are pastoral. I don’t agree that we should emphasize openness above catechesis, considering how rampant error is in the Church today.

I would agree with you whole-heartedly about catechesis, and your friend’s lady is a prime example of that.

However, what I see is conservatives who seem to find their information of what Francis said, from the same press they castigate (and with reason) for inaccuracy and exceeding bias. Perhaps it is partly due to the fact that I got rid of my television about 28 years ago; and partly due to the fact that when I look for information (such as a statement by Francis) I look to religious sources (such as Our Sunday Visitor and National Catholic Register), which are true to the Magisterium.

60 years ago I was in school and we were learning about our faith through the Baltimore Catechism. I learned then that the Holy Spirit guides the Church in matters of Faith and Morals; and I can only look to the angst exhibited over the Synod on the Family, and the conservatives totally rattled that doctrine was going to be changed. They, of all Catholics, should have known better. But I wander off topic.

I am not trying to say that one style of leadership is better than another. Both JP 2 and Benedict are at the top of my list of favorite popes. But so is Peter, who, from reading both his letters and his comments in the Gospels, does not appear to be an intellectual. However, he was on fire for Christ, and if I had to use one word, it would be evangelizing.

I see Francis (although brighter) to be in the same mold. He is not a theoretician (and we absolutely need those) but he is first and foremost an evangelizer; he has spent a tremendous amount of time “among the sheep” and that is where he sees his role. He calls us all (and me personally) to get past the “what” of the rules to the “why” of them.

I have seen conservatives upset with what Francis has said, not because they misunderstand his call for change, but precisely because he has made that call. I see others who seem to not know that the Holy Spirit guides the Church. I have seen conservatives, who are the first to say that the secular press hates the Church and rarely ever even shows minimal understanding of it, to be swayed by what that same press reports and how it reports it.

I guess another way of saying it is that if we (suspending reality for the moment) ended up with Peter as our Pope, there would be conservatives who would be upset with him. Peter was the pope the Church needed at that moment. And I firmly believe that John Paul 2 and Benedict were popes that we needed at that moment in time, and the Francis is the one we need now. Others disagree. So be it.

 

[otjm]

Conservatives don’t need to “get a grip”.

Everyone, conservatives and liberals, need clear, concise, well thought out statements from our Holy Father. Through his off-the-cuff remarks, he has given them reasons for concern. I don’t blame the press. We are in a 24/7, hyper information, sound byte society, where most people no longer read newspapers or long magazine articles to get the full story. Many get their news from rather dubious sources, where its a quick blurb, and onto the next story. So the press is providing people with what they want - sound byte information. So everyone in public life must be more careful.

Blaming the press is just to easy…

You would most definitely not like Pope Peter - but Christ chose him, not a group of Cardinals.

I tire of conservatives who can articulate how terribly wrong the secular press is about the Church, and then turn around and pay an undue amount of attention to that that same press reports.

Yes, most definitely, conservatives need to get a grip.

And by the way, I have all sorts of Catholic friends who consider me to be a conservative Catholic. And I am not upset by Francis’ comments.

 

[abucs]

Conservatives don’t need to “get a grip”.

Everyone, conservatives and liberals, need clear, concise, well thought out statements from our Holy Father. Through his off-the-cuff remarks, he has given them reasons for concern. I don’t blame the press. We are in a 24/7, hyper information, sound byte society, where most people no longer read newspapers or long magazine articles to get the full story. Many get their news from rather dubious sources, where its a quick blurb, and onto the next story. So the press is providing people with what they want - sound byte information. So everyone in public life must be more careful.

Blaming the press is just to easy…

 

[Mark121359]

One of the most disturbing things I saw was when they pushed the global warming agenda by displaying the climate change light show which was projected onto St. Peter’s Basilica. Many called this a sacrilege as can be read here. This global warming stuff alarms the daylights out of me and does not sit well with me at all. What’s worse is some of the climate change advisors he’s selected. Such as Jeffrey Sachs, a prominent supporter of abortion and population control. He also believes climate skeptics have blood on their hands. Hans Joachim Schellnhuber. Schellnhuber has advocated for the establishment of an “Earth Constitution”, a “Global Council” directly elected by the citizens of the world, and a “Planetary Court” that would serve as the planetary legal system. Naomi Oreskes. Oreskes believes in placing restrictions on the freedom of speech of global warming skeptics. She believes skeptics should be prosecuted. :bigyikes: I can tell you one thing these three all have in common. It’s that they worship the created, but not the ***Creator! ***

Peace, Mark