Rev. John Spong

[JJ59]

Hi there.

I just wanted to know what people here think of John Shelby Spong?

In my opinion, Rev. Spong has twisted Christianity to fit his owned ideas, that it becomes not Christianity at all. He has denied everything from the existence of God, (not an “external deity” he says) to the divinity of Christ, to prayer and to everlasting life! I don’t see how anyone can see this as Christianity at all.

What do you think about his (extremely) literal teachings? How should people like Spong be dealt with?

Comments and discussion are welcomed!

God Bless.

 

[Cluny]

It’s RIGHT Rev. John Spong, as he is a bishop (even if retired).

A friend of mine summed him up quite well after reading his books:

“They are the maunderings of a bitter old man who believes his life has been a waste.”

 

[SedesDomi]

Spong is great. He’s a non-traditional Christian, whose writings require nuanced understanding.

If you would like to debate him, I’m sure his address is public knowledge.

 

[Spirithound]

…heterodox…

 

[SSTeacher]

Hi there.

I just wanted to know what people here think of John Shelby Spong?

In my opinion, Rev. Spong has twisted Christianity to fit his owned ideas, that it becomes not Christianity at all. He has denied everything from the existence of God, (not an “external deity” he says) to the divinity of Christ, to prayer and to everlasting life! I don’t see how anyone can see this as Christianity at all.

What do you think about his (extremely) literal teachings? How should people like Spong be dealt with?

Comments and discussion are welcomed!

God Bless.

Here’s a quote of his to which an Episcopalian friend of mine directed me:

If I were holding before my daughters or my granddaughters a model for their lives and my choices were the Virgin Mary and Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman would win hands down.

To read that comment in context click here

Cordially,
Mick

 

[reteeks21]

Spong is great. He’s a non-traditional Christian, whose writings require nuanced understanding.

If you would like to debate him, I’m sure his address is public knowledge.

You mean he’s a non-Christian, right?

 

[chris_molter]

Spong’s a hack. He’s not even a very creative heretic (if you’re going to be a heretic, at least be CREATIVE about it! jeez!) and just rehashes the same old junk that others have already thought up. He’s definitely good at packaging and selling himself, though.

The Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams (not exactly a bastion of orthodox Christian thought himself) called him out on his lack of depth… basically compared his writings to the adolescent questioning of a 10th grader.

 

[SSTeacher]

Spong’s a hack. He’s not even a very creative heretic (if you’re going to be a heretic, at least be CREATIVE about it! jeez!) and just rehashes the same old junk that others have already thought up. He’s definitely good at packaging and selling himself, though.

The Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams (not exactly a bastion of orthodox Christian thought himself) called him out on his lack of depth… basically compared his writings to the adolescent questioning of a 10th grader.

Well, at least he’s apparently as smart as a fifth grader.

Thankfully,
Mick

 

[chris_molter]

Well, at least he’s apparently as smart as a fifth grader.

Thankfully,
Mick

Sadly, though, he doesn’t have the child-like faith of one. I guess some folks don’t get past that hormonal teenage mentality and let their minds grow up to adulthood and their faith revert to being childlike!

 

[SSTeacher]

Sadly, though, he doesn’t have the child-like faith of one. I guess some folks don’t get past that hormonal teenage mentality and let their minds grow up to adulthood and their faith revert to being childlike!

Yes, you’re quite right, Chris. I shouldn’t be flippant. It is very sad. Bishop Spong has rejected just about every Christian tenet. What is left for him to believe in?

The Original Poster asked, “How should people like Spong be dealt with? Perhaps we ought to remember that Bishop Spong is made in God’s image just as we are and that he has failed tragically. He rose to a position of leadership and responsibility within Protestant Christendom during which time he spent much effort promoting his own agenda. The result must have been to lead people away from rather than to Christ. At the very least Bishop Spong has probably drawn many into a state of confusion. What a terrible thing for a teacher to have on his conscience! He must feel very dejected and miserable whenever he looks inside himself. Those of us who pray ought to remember him in our prayers. Therein lies our Christian duty.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:

 

[Publisher]

I have read each of his books and find he is a breath of fresh air among Christian thinkers.

I went to Trinity Cathedral and heard him speak several years ago. The cathedral was packed to standing room. As he came before the audience I saw a very unassuming man of twinkling eyes and warm genuine smile. He spoke softly without notes or podium. He spoke of the deep things of the Spirit…of our lives hidden in God through Christ…not an adult version of “Santa Claus god” but the God who permeates life and is Life itself. A God who is made known in our world through Jesus of Nazareth…Jesus was and is the expression of who God is…Jesus lived love agressively and fully…even as he died on the cross…he loved “wastefully” and “magnificently”…love was to be given away “recklessly” to such a degree it was transforming.

He did not espouse a “God” who sat on a white throne just above the blue canopy that surrounded our Earth…but existed within our world calling us “beyond ourselves” to love and mercy, a God who called us to a cross if need be to woo this world to Love.

He did not speak of a “magical bible” filled with wonderous stories of talking snakes and donkeys, of floating axe heads and parting seas or walking staffs that when thrown on the ground became snakes and back again as their tail was grasped…but instead he called those assembled to search and study the scriptures with open minds and hearts to hear the “Word of God” in and through it’s pages. He called us to be people of prayer and meditation…to center our lives on the life of Jesus and embrace his timeless joy of abundant life.

He offered a Christianity vibrant and full of expectancy for the 21st century.

We were moved from joy and laughter to tears of empathy. Our hearts were raised in praise to thei God who entered our world in the person of Jesus of Nazareth…who calls us to 'love wastefully"…even when we are insulted and mocked…to love “extraveganly” even when we face death…incarnating the life of God into our world. As those in the Roman world cried “Ceaser is lord” so we too should speak of “Jesus is Lord”…the Rule of God is among men…we should order our lives around this Kingdom’s precepts and live our lives NOW under the Rule of God of which Jesus spoke instead of waiting for some far off nebulous “Kingdom of God” that will never come to pass in our world unless we embrace it in the here and now.

He spoke of life here and now…and what it could be if we lived and “loved wastefully and extravegantly” and shared the love of God in Jesus of Nazareth in our world…NOW.

The creeds of the past that sought to explain the Mystery of God must be reexamined and new ideas and “creeds” to bring the Truth to us in the 21st century must be formulated or the message of Christianity will slowly die as we move into a post-modern world where the gods no longer inhabit Olympus and the stars no longer are the “lights from heaven” in a three tiered earth centered universe.

John Spong does seem to inspire the ire and harsh words from those who claim to have the “Truth”…to those who claim to represent the Word made flesh…to the extent that their words and deeds betray themselves…in my opinion of course.

 

[reteeks21]

Here are some of the beliefs he holds to and teaches. How can any of these be considered as “breath of fresh air” into Christianity when they aren’t even Christian?

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.
2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.
4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ’s divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.
6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.
7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.
8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.
9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.
10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.
11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

 

[SSTeacher]

The creeds of the past that sought to explain the Mystery of God must be reexamined and new ideas and “creeds” to bring the Truth to us in the 21st century must be formulated or the message of Christianity will slowly die as we move into a post-modern world where the gods no longer inhabit Olympus and the stars no longer are the “lights from heaven” in a three tiered earth centered universe.

Which tenets in which creeds do you have in mind?

Why must these creeds be examined?

Who has the authority to reexamine them?

What would the motive for reexamination?

What new ideas and “creeds” to bring the Truth to us do you have in mind?

Whom do you classify as us? (I have the distinct feeling I’m aligned with them but I’d appreciate confirmation).

Why must new ideas and “creeds” to bring the Truth be formulated?

Who declares this formulation to be necessary or even desirable?

What particular message of Christianity do you have in mind?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[Publisher]

Which tenets in which creeds do you have in mind?

Why must these creeds be examined?

Who has the authority to reexamine them?

What would the motive for reexamination?

What new ideas and “creeds” to bring the Truth to us do you have in mind?

Whom do you classify as us? (I have the distinct feeling I’m aligned with them but I’d appreciate confirmation).

Why must new ideas and “creeds” to bring the Truth be formulated?

Who declares this formulation to be necessary or even desirable?

What particular message of Christianity do you have in mind?

Curiously,
Mick

For some of us…“us” as in those who seek to find meaning in the Christian message, the ‘old ways’ have lost meaning. John Spong calls ‘our’ group the “Church Alumni Association”.

If Christianity in it’s more ancient forms has meaning for you to improve your life and make your life joyful and provide meaning…I’m all for it.

But for some of us, the existing tenents of Christianity as espoused by the ancient creeds no longer have such meaning…and they leave us empty.

I have been a member of the Society of Friends since I was 19 years old…I am now 54…Friends are “non-creedal”. We seek to understand God through living in the Light in our world and through corporate discovery. Faith isn’t something one “believes”…faith is something one does.

Those of ‘us’ who do not find the creeds of ancient Christianty compelling seek to understand what it means to have faith in God as revealed through Jesus of Nazareth in our day and age…we seek to move beyond the sectarianism which incites harsh and angry words and hateful and mean spirited discussions about this “God of love as revealed in Jesus Christ.”…such discussions seem to be very out of place coming from those who claim to have “truth”…“Truth” is something one exhibits in one’s life…over and above one’s words.

In John Spong’s last few books, he has found it increasingly difficult to speak about the Mystery of the Eternal…and finds himself groping for words his spirit articulates but his vocabulary can’t catch up to. He finds himself unable to speak “things that cannot be uttered” as much is beyond him…but he continues trying.

I am a Friend because in Meeting I am able to sit with others in corporate worship and explore what it means to be the People of God in our world…to sit in expectant waiting in the Presence to share in deed and through the corporate expression of a godly lfie…even if our words fail us to express such a faith in “creeds”.

Paul hit on it…“Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not love…it avails me nothing…though I have the ability to comprehend all mystery…and have not love…it profits nothing…” I don’t have to articulate 'doctrine" through creeds for my life to have meaning in Christ…but my life MUST express these beliefs in action in this world I now inhabit.

I do not look for some future “heaven” beyond the by and by when I cannot impact the small world around me NOW…

For those who can…those like me rejoice with you and share with you this Journey…John Spong puts into words some of the things we grasp with and validates our own longings that for some of us modern Christianity as expressed in ancient creeds have lost it’s meaning…those Christians of 2000 years ago expressed their faith in words through struggle and expanded their minds to seek to express such a faith…I and those like me want that same opportunity to find modern words that have meaning to modern people this same faith and experience this God who is Holy Mystery in our daily lives.

By who’s authority??? By the authority given to us by God to “seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opended.”…“Seek me with your whole heart”…“Work out your own salvation…” “You are hidden with Christ in God”…

As I said before…if those ancient expressions of faith have meaning for you, wonderful…they don’t for me…“Truth” is greater than the words that seek to ensconce that Truth in concepts we can understand…sometiimes there are some of us who are without the capacity many of you seem to have…so we seek Him haltingly…and sometimes in very bumbling ways…but He is faithful to hearts open…

'I’d rather see a sermon than hear one"…sometimes “your” actions speak so loud your words are drowned out…we too seek this God…we just find the tools and words “you” use unwieldly and cumbersome…so we seek fresh expressions that will speak to our condition…not to work against you…but to share with you.

 

[promethius]

He did not speak of a “magical bible” filled with wonderous stories of talking snakes and donkeys, of floating axe heads and parting seas or walking staffs that when thrown on the ground became snakes and back again as their tail was grasped…but instead he called those assembled to search and study the scriptures with open minds and hearts to hear the “Word of God” in and through it’s pages. He called us to be people of prayer and meditation…to center our lives on the life of Jesus and embrace his timeless joy of abundant life.

…

The creeds of the past that sought to explain the Mystery of God must be reexamined and new ideas and “creeds” to bring the Truth to us in the 21st century must be formulated or the message of Christianity will slowly die as we move into a post-modern world where the gods no longer inhabit Olympus and the stars no longer are the “lights from heaven” in a three tiered earth centered universe.

I smell something not so pretty that comes from farm animals…

The truth does not change. God’s word is either universal, eternal, and perfect or He is not God. What you have done in this post is to present us an alternate messiah, one Mr. Spong, one who believes ultimate truth is maleable and changes with time. Even the message that “Christianity will slowly die” is heretical and contrary to the word of God.

It all comes down to one question: whose word do you take? Jesus the Christ or John the Spong? I know my choice: eternal truth.

 

[Contarini]

I have read each of his books and find he is a breath of fresh air among Christian thinkers.

That opinion baffles me. I suppose with some imaginative effort I can understand why a reasonable human being would think this, but it’s difficult.

not an adult version of “Santa Claus god”

Why do you find any “fresh air” in such a silly caricature? If you can’t even describe what you call the “old ways” without sneers and distortion, how do you expect anyone to believe that you have some great new spiritual insight?

but the God who permeates life and is Life itself.

I don’t disagree with this as it stands, but it has to be qualified. Life as we know it biologically is amoral. Is God amoral?

He did not espouse a “God” who sat on a white throne just above the blue canopy that surrounded our Earth

And what Christian theologian does believe that this is literally true of God? Again, the fact that you can’t describe traditional Christianity in anything remotely resembling a fair or accurate way undercuts what you are trying to say.

The creeds of the past that sought to explain the Mystery of God

And which you so far don’t seem to understand in the slightest. Perhaps you should try understanding the ancient creeds before you move beyond them.

must be reexamined and new ideas and “creeds” to bring the Truth to us in the 21st century must be formulated or the message of Christianity will slowly die

That’s the silliest part of Spong’s message. Quite the reverse seems to be true. If you want a version of Christianity that will speak to people in the 21st century, you should probably embrace a robustly supernatural, Biblically literalist version of Christianity such as conservative Pentecostalism. As it happens, I don’t think relevance is our primary goal. Truth is more important. I reject Biblical literalism not because I think it doesn’t make sense to 21st-century people–it clearly does–but because I think it false.
Spong ought to say: “even though embracing my version of Christianity will mean that Christianity no longer exists within a century, you should embrace it anyway because it’s the only version of Christianity that has any claims to be true.” That would be an honorable call that I could respect, and it would have the added advantage of not flying in the face of the evidence.

Spong’s “Christianity” cannot possibly be anything other than a waystation out of the Christian faith, at least on the long term and on a culture-wide scale (I’m not denying that there might be individuals who convert or return to some form of Christian faith under Spong’s influence).

as we move into a post-modern world where the gods no longer inhabit Olympus

Newsflash for both you and +Spong: most educated people had already moved into that world when Jesus was born. Spong is claiming to move us into the 21st century by caricaturing ideas that were oldfashioned in the time of Plato. Great comedy, not great theology.

and the stars no longer are the “lights from heaven” in a three tiered earth centered universe.

And again, the Ptolemaic picture of the universe was earth-centered but not “three-tiered,” and this was the picture that educated people had embraced before Jesus was born.

John Spong does seem to inspire the ire and harsh words from those who claim to have the “Truth”…to those who claim to represent the Word made flesh…to the extent that their words and deeds betray themselves…in my opinion of course.

Well, and in my opinion +Spong’s words and deeds betray that he doesn’t represent “fresh air” or clear thinking, but an extraordinarily sentimental, muddle-headed, self-deluded religiosity.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

In John Spong’s last few books, he has found it increasingly difficult to speak about the Mystery of the Eternal

That’s very encouraging, and not at all the impression I have received from those of his books I’ve looked at. Which books are you thinking of? I’m willing to give him another try (not that I expect to agree with his version of Christianity, but there are lots of heretical or non-Christian thinkers whom I find profound and helpful–Spong just isn’t one of them, at least in the books I’ve seen).

Edwin

 

[SSTeacher]

For some of us…“us” as in those who seek to find meaning in the Christian message, the ‘old ways’ have lost meaning. John Spong calls ‘our’ group the “Church Alumni Association”.

If Christianity in it’s more ancient forms has meaning for you to improve your life and make your life joyful and provide meaning…I’m all for it.

But for some of us, the existing tenents of Christianity as espoused by the ancient creeds no longer have such meaning…and they leave us empty.

I have been a member of the Society of Friends since I was 19 years old…I am now 54…Friends are “non-creedal”. We seek to understand God through living in the Light in our world and through corporate discovery. Faith isn’t something one “believes”…faith is something one does.

Those of ‘us’ who do not find the creeds of ancient Christianty compelling seek to understand what it means to have faith in God as revealed through Jesus of Nazareth in our day and age…we seek to move beyond the sectarianism which incites harsh and angry words and hateful and mean spirited discussions about this “God of love as revealed in Jesus Christ.”…such discussions seem to be very out of place coming from those who claim to have “truth”…“Truth” is something one exhibits in one’s life…over and above one’s words.

In John Spong’s last few books, he has found it increasingly difficult to speak about the Mystery of the Eternal…and finds himself groping for words his spirit articulates but his vocabulary can’t catch up to. He finds himself unable to speak “things that cannot be uttered” as much is beyond him…but he continues trying.

I am a Friend because in Meeting I am able to sit with others in corporate worship and explore what it means to be the People of God in our world…to sit in expectant waiting in the Presence to share in deed and through the corporate expression of a godly lfie…even if our words fail us to express such a faith in “creeds”.

Paul hit on it…“Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not love…it avails me nothing…though I have the ability to comprehend all mystery…and have not love…it profits nothing…” I don’t have to articulate 'doctrine" through creeds for my life to have meaning in Christ…but my life MUST express these beliefs in action in this world I now inhabit.

I do not look for some future “heaven” beyond the by and by when I cannot impact the small world around me NOW…

For those who can…those like me rejoice with you and share with you this Journey…John Spong puts into words some of the things we grasp with and validates our own longings that for some of us modern Christianity as expressed in ancient creeds have lost it’s meaning…those Christians of 2000 years ago expressed their faith in words through struggle and expanded their minds to seek to express such a faith…I and those like me want that same opportunity to find modern words that have meaning to modern people this same faith and experience this God who is Holy Mystery in our daily lives.

By who’s authority??? By the authority given to us by God to “seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opended.”…“Seek me with your whole heart”…“Work out your own salvation…” “You are hidden with Christ in God”…

As I said before…if those ancient expressions of faith have meaning for you, wonderful…they don’t for me…“Truth” is greater than the words that seek to ensconce that Truth in concepts we can understand…sometiimes there are some of us who are without the capacity many of you seem to have…so we seek Him haltingly…and sometimes in very bumbling ways…but He is faithful to hearts open…

'I’d rather see a sermon than hear one"…sometimes “your” actions speak so loud your words are drowned out…we too seek this God…we just find the tools and words “you” use unwieldly and cumbersome…so we seek fresh expressions that will speak to our condition…not to work against you…but to share with you.

Hello again, Publisher,

The above is obviously sincere so I don’t at all mind that you’ve ducked providing the detail my questions clearly demanded. May God grant you many years and bless you in all your endeavors.

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[Publisher]

Hello again, Publisher,

The above is obviously sincere so I don’t at all mind that you’ve ducked providing the detail my questions clearly demanded. May God grant you many years and bless you in all your endeavors.

Grace and peace,
Mick

Friend Mick.

I don’t know that I intended to “duck” anything you “demanded”…I have no desire to change your mind about what you believe…if those expressions of faith comfort you and bring you closer to God and those around you, I rejoice with you.

May you find grace and mercy in your beliefs.

Peace to you.

 

[Publisher]

That’s very encouraging, and not at all the impression I have received from those of his books I’ve looked at. Which books are you thinking of? I’m willing to give him another try (not that I expect to agree with his version of Christianity, but there are lots of heretical or non-Christian thinkers whom I find profound and helpful–Spong just isn’t one of them, at least in the books I’ve seen).

Edwin

I guess for me going and hearing him speak and answer questions from the audience was an insight into where his books were becoming increasingly difficult to put into words those things he tried to convey. His last two books were almost…“academic” and had a difficult time to speak to the spirit they were trying to reach.

“Christianity Must Change or Die” , “A New Christianity for a New World” and “Jesus for the Non-Religious” had wonderful things to say…but at times became very “dry” as he had difficult times putting into words on paper what he was able to convey in person.

Some of his earlier books…“This Hebrew Lord” and “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism” are a couple of my favorites…they brought the scriptures alive for me.