Revelation 1:1?

[Nita]

First, I would say there is absolutely nothing in Rev 1:1 which indicates Jesus didn’t know what was in the revelation before God asked Him to show it to His servants. What the verse says is that Jesus showed it to His servants because God (the Father) wanted Him to.

Second, Jesus had already revealed this characteristic of His relationship with the Father.
John 8:28 So Jesus said, “…then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me.”

John 5:19 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing;…”

John 14:31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father.

The Father revealing His will to Jesus and Jesus doing it is part of the loving communication and relationship between those two Persons of the Trinity. Jesus is in no way indicating that He is not God - for He also says:

John 14:8-11 He who has seen me has seen the Father;… Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me;…

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Hope these Scripture passages will help some.

Nita

 

[Nita]

Your last post came in while I was typing mine up, so didn’t see it till afterwards. And I see your friend chose to interpret many of the passages I gave in a different way.

The other option (namely, that there are two distinct persons
here and yet both of them are one God) I don’t understand anyways so it makes more
sense to me to read it in a way that I can understand it.

Look at what he is saying here. God has to be reduced to fit his intellectual capacity - his ability to understand!

I may have more to respond later, after I’ve read and given more thought to some of his points. But I’ve never studied Greek so I don’t have any qualifications there. And most of his “proofs” seem to come by giving the Greek a different interpretation than any of our Christian interpreters. Has your friend taken Greek? Those who translated the Bible have, and I would assume they might be more fluent in it than he.

Nita

 

[mich2]

I know man, I agree with this, of course. But I just can’t realy explain it well, not yet. And when I say this to my friend, such as "it was just Christ’s role and not the Spirit’s or Father’s, he says “But it shows that Christ didn’t ‘know’ the revelation. It was ‘given’ to him by God. If Christ was God, he would have known ALL things. And this was AFTER the resurection therefore Christ was in his glorified body and if he was God then by that time he should’ve known ALL things as God does.”

See what I mean?

Jesus said “I do nothing apart from the Father”. Here lies the unity found in God where Revelation is given by the Will of the Father, to the Son, who, through the Holy Spirit, being the Angel sent to John, reveals it to his servants, the Church, being His Body. As I undertand this, John does not receive a vision of Jesus as such (One like the Son of Man) but of the Holy Spirit revealing Jesus (listen to what the Spirit says to the churches) .Just as Jesus revealed the Father (he who sees me…) so too, the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus.

The way I understand this, God, outside His own creation, is One, but in unity with His creation, is revealed to us as a Trinity of persons within the unity of One God, as a man and women do indeed become one flesh in Holy Matrimony, while remaining two distinguishable persons.The child, being a third individual, seals the true unity of the husband and wife, since, within the child lies the true unity found within the bonds of Matrimony (the two have truly become one flesh in the person of the child). For this reason the first born was seen as the seal of this unity.

Andre

 

[The_Catholic]

I was wondering if anyone could elaborate upon the article my friend wrote. I’d like to hear your responses.

 

[Nita]

I was wondering if anyone could elaborate upon the article my friend wrote. I’d like to hear your responses.

I haven’t had the time to dig deep and probably won’t till after Christmas (we’re leaving for several days and getting back only in time to get ready for our family Christmas dinner).
I have software of the Greek (OT and NT) and thought I might do a search on all uses of “the God” and uses of just “God”. Your friend makes much of that. But that’s one of the things that will have to wait. Will just comment on a few points he made.

Often in greek when there is no definite article you have to insert “a” to have it
make sense. That’s why the JWs translate Èå.ò as “a god”. However, I don’t think this
is necessary because the word “God” could be qualifying “the word” or describing what
it is like. Therefore it would be understood as: “and the word was Godly/Divine/
Godlike…”

As he says, sometimes you have to insert something in order for it to make sense - but that is not the case here. It makes perfect sense to literally translate it. Your friend wants to change “God” to Godly/Divine. The Greek word is a noun , accusative case; singular; masculine. There is no legitimate reason to change it to an adjective. So why does he do it? One can only surmise that it’s because what it actually says is not acceptable to him. If he wants to use Scripture to support his position, then he has to use it as it is and not rewrite it.

John 20:28:
κα. .πεκρ.θη Θωμ.ς κα. ε.πεν α.τ. . . Κ.ρι.ς μου κα. . Θε.ς μου .
and Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and My God…
I’ve heard some say that Thomas is using this expression like the way we use the
expression “Oh my God” when something amazing happens.

This proposed interpretation really stretches things to the breaking point. It takes contemporary expressions and puts them back 2000 years in time. Again, I haven’t done a search, but off the top of my head I can’t recall a single instance of such a usage in Scripture. Challenge your friend to show you a passage that would justify such an interpretation.

Others say that he was
addressing Christ as “My Lord” and the Father as “My God”. As if to say: “Oh Jesus my Lord and (as he turned his eyes towards heaven) My God.”

Now that’s really reading things into Scripture!!! Even the movements of Our Lord’s body. I’ts one thing to do such things when one is meditating in prayer on Scripture and quite another to use those imaginings as a Scriptural proof of a point. (Altho, even in meditating it’s important not to go contrary to what is given in Scripture.)

Colossians 2:9
.τι .ν α.τ. κατοικε. π.ν τ. πλ.ρωμα τ.ς θε.τητος σωματικ.ς ,
For in him dwells all the fullness of Deity in bodily form.
But Paul also says to Christians in Ephesians 3:19:να πληρωθ.τε ε.ς π.ν τ. πλ.ρωμα το. Θεο. .
that you may filled up to all the fullness of God.
So Paul encourages the Ephesians (who are not gods) to be filled up with all the
fullness of God as Christ was also. Therefore being filled with the fullness of God does
not mean that we should be God Almighty himself but that we should have the Holy
Spirit dwelling within us as Christ our example did also.

The two passages are not saying the same thing.
Col 2:9 for in Him the whole fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. Here (in Jesus) the Deity is said to have bodily form - God, who is spirit, is physically present in bodily form.
Eph 3:19 that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
As a matter of fact, this whole passage contains the Trinity. I’ll cite the whole passage starting with verse 14.
“For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with might through his Spirit in the inner man, and that **Christ **may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have power to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.”
This presence of God is a spiritual one in the “inner man” and not a physical presence in bodily form. Paul is praying that they will receive all (fullness) the spiritual blessings God has made available for us.

Enough for now on his statements.

I’m curious tho as to why he never commented on the “Elohim” of the Old Testament (plural form of God in Hebrew) and use of plural pronouns - most notably in the creation narratives.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created…

Nita

 

[mich2]

I was wondering if anyone could elaborate upon the article my friend wrote. I’d like to hear your responses.

Well, first, if we take argument of the word **God **without the article placed in front, as meaning a lesser god and not the Almighty God; I don’t think it fits. In my opinion, the grammatical structure simply asks the article not to be implemented.For example in 1 Corinthians 8:6, it reads:

There is for us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we are for him;

Clearly this God cannot be any other than the Almighty, and here the word is written without having the article in front.

There is also the statement of Thomas “My Lord and ny God”, which speaks of Jesus as God with the article included. How the Jehovah’s witnesses escape this particluar problem is, in my opinion, totally ridiculous.

I do agree the word God can be applied to others. It seems the word means something like “power”. Now if one has power over something/someone else, he/she can be said to be it’s god. And so Almighty God would mean power, or dominion over all. We know that Jesus has such a power. Some might argue that He has received such power from the Father and does not pocess it due to it’s nature.Nevertheless, even if this was true, He still is allowed to be called “Almighty God”.
Now since there are many gods, it means that such powers exists above us. However, this happens “only” if we let them be our gods,( do not be affraid of those who can destroy the body but not the soul…) which is actually a breaking of the first of God’s commandment. Therefore, if Jesus said** "no one can come to the Father except through me**, either this means that Jesus is indeed the true God or we are putting Jesus (a god) before the true God of Isreal, and are therefore guilty of idolatry… but this would include the Jehovah’s witnesses as well, since, they also accept the words of Jesus that no one can get to God except through Him (the lesser god?).

Andre

 

[The_Catholic]

Interseting. I also do not think that John 1:1 “and the word was God (theos)” HAS to have an article before it because the “word” is the subject of the sentence. I think St. John was simply saying that the word was Almight God, not so much to say “The God,” or “a god,” but God. Another words the word is the one true God of all creation…God, simply put.

And in John 8:58 I think it’s clear from the contex that Jesus claimed to be Almighty God. “I AM.” That’s why the jews tried to stone Him.

 

[The_Catholic]

Another problem my friend has is that he says for every verses a Trinitarian uses to “prove” Christ is God, there are parallel verses similar to other men. Anotherwords Christ says that God and He are one, but also says that we must be “one” with God. Jesus is the “Son” of God, but angels and men are also “sons” of God. Jesus is God to men, but God made Moses “god” to the egyptians, etc.

Could somebody please show some verses about Christ that stand out differently than other old testament prophets?

 

[LilyM]

Another problem my friend has is that he says for every verses a Trinitarian uses to “prove” Christ is God, there are parallel verses similar to other men. Anotherwords Christ says that God and He are one, but also says that we must be “one” with God. Jesus is the “Son” of God, but angels and men are also “sons” of God. Jesus is God to men, but God made Moses “god” to the egyptians, etc.

Could somebody please show some verses about Christ that stand out differently than other old testament prophets?

Thomas, at the end of John’s Gospel, calls Christ ‘My Lord and my God’. Other people in the Bible were certainly called ‘Lord’ (although I don’t know that the specific Hebrew term, Adonai, applied to God is ever applied to anyone apart from Jesus) but no other human being was called ‘MY GOD’, were they!

 

[JoeyWarren]

I’m not “worried” about this verse jbuck. I just do not know how to answer it. So far I see no answers. The verse says that it was given to Jesus Christ by God, therefore, my friend says “Since God gave this revelation to Christ then Christ doesn’t know all things and cannot be almighty God.”

Hate to sound like the devil’s advocate, but I would also have to concur with the logical result. Also because Jesus does not know when he will be coming back, only his Father knows this. It is apparent that Jesus does not know everything that the Father knows.

Also, Jesus never declares himself to be God. None of the Epistles make this declaration either. All explicit verses about praying to some one is always directed to God.

But its is a matter of faith that Jesus is God as directed thru the power to bind and loose that we have the trinitarian doctrine.

 

[mich2]

Another problem my friend has is that he says for every verses a Trinitarian uses to “prove” Christ is God, there are parallel verses similar to other men. Anotherwords Christ says that God and He are one, but also says that we must be “one” with God. Jesus is the “Son” of God, but angels and men are also “sons” of God. Jesus is God to men, but God made Moses “god” to the egyptians, etc.

Could somebody please show some verses about Christ that stand out differently than other old testament prophets?

Notice that while the scriptures read there’s only one God, yet, it also speak of many gods as well.The same can be said for the title Lord.**Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD **
. One God, One Lord, yet again, the scriptures speak of many other lords as well. **Deut. 10:17 “YHVH your God is God of gods and Lord of lords”. **

Well, the same is applied to the Son of God. There is only one Son of God, the same nature as the Father, yet the scriptures also speak of other sons of God as well.
Now, the reason as to why Jesus was put to death was on the grounds of blasphemy due to the fact that He claimed to be the Son of God, the context of which was clearly understood by the Jews to be the Only begotten Son, being of the same nature as the Father.

**John 5:18

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. **

We know through John’s Gosple that Jesus is the Word of God. Some Jehovah’s witnesses once told me that Jesus was the Word of God and not God the Word. Well, here’s a
statement made by Josephus, a jewish historian, not
christian, who speaks of the coming Messiah.

**AN EXTRACT
OUT OF
JOSEPHUS’S DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS CONCERNING HADES.

1. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ.**

Andre

 

[The_Catholic]

Notice that while the scriptures read there’s only one God, yet, it also speak of many gods as well.The same can be said for the title Lord.**Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD **
. One God, One Lord, yet again, the scriptures speak of many other lords as well. **Deut. 10:17 “YHVH your God is God of gods and Lord of lords”. **

Well, the same is applied to the Son of God. There is only one Son of God, the same nature as the Father, yet the scriptures also speak of other sons of God as well.
Now, the reason as to why Jesus was put to death was on the grounds of blasphemy due to the fact that He claimed to be the Son of God, the context of which was clearly understood by the Jews to be the Only begotten Son, being of the same nature as the Father.

John 5:18

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

We know through John’s Gosple that Jesus is the Word of God. Some Jehovah’s witnesses once told me that Jesus was the Word of God and not God the Word. Well, here’s a
statement made by Josephus, a jewish historian, not
christian, who speaks of the coming Messiah.

AN EXTRACT
OUT OF
JOSEPHUS’S DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS CONCERNING HADES.

6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ.

Andre

Very interesting. Thanks to all. But does anyone else have any coments to make?

 

[Nita]

**I realize that there are explanations for all of these philosophical problems, and I would
read any reply you may have to them. My goal is not to start an argument over this with
anyone because I realize that there are fanatical people on both sides of this issue who
would condemn to hellfire (or capital punishment) anyone who does not agree with them
on this. My goal of this article is to show that I have biblical reasons for believing what I have come to believe now. If I am wrong, I hope that God would open my eyes to my
error and that I would submit to his will.
I hope this article was fairly straight forward and easy to understand. I apologize for all
the greek quotes in it, but I thought that if you could see the words in greek itself you
could understand better where I am coming from. If made any mistakes in my scripture
quotes please let me know or if you want to discuss passages that I didn’t mention I
would be happy to. I want to add that I don’t understand everything in the scriptures or
everything concerning Christ in the scriptures. There are enough mysteries in the
scriptures as it is and to add another mystery (namely the trinity) just makes things more
confusing when the texts can be understood in a more simple way.
Thank you for being a good friend Jay. I hope to see you soon. God bless you.
Karl

Hello TheCatholic,

Hope you had a wonderful Christmas.

Thought about your post off and on over the holidays - and ended up thinking that trying to refute all his points might do more harm than good. It probably would just lead to argument, something he wants to avoid. But, he seems very willing to communicate on the topic. Why don’t you do exactly what he is doing. Share with him your beliefs and why you have them - the Scripture passages and writings that are persuasive for you (even if they’re the same ones he cites for his position; just explain how they demonstrate the Trinity for you), etc.

You may have to ask him for a moratorium on this discussion while you do some personal study and pondering!

Nita

 

[The_Catholic]

Hello TheCatholic,

Hope you had a wonderful Christmas.

Thought about your post off and on over the holidays - and ended up thinking that trying to refute all his points might do more harm than good. It probably would just lead to argument, something he wants to avoid. But, he seems very willing to communicate on the topic. Why don’t you do exactly what he is doing. Share with him your beliefs and why you have them - the Scripture passages and writings that are persuasive for you (even if they’re the same ones he cites for his position; just explain how they demonstrate the Trinity for you), etc.

You may have to ask him for a moratorium on this discussion while you do some personal study and pondering!

Nita

Yeah Nita I have. I wrote him two letters with multiple reasons and scripture verses for why I believe Jesus is Divine, or Eternal God. He respects that but he’s still not convinced, for like I, he interprets the verses differently. But never the less we have talked respectfuly about it to one another. Actually he’s posting on the forums now. Perhaps he’ll drop in. If so, HI KARL!

 

[yngwie7]

Thomas, at the end of John’s Gospel, calls Christ ‘My Lord and my God’. Other people in the Bible were certainly called ‘Lord’ (although I don’t know that the specific Hebrew term, Adonai, applied to God is ever applied to anyone apart from Jesus) but no other human being was called ‘MY GOD’, were they!

I don’t think the specific phrase “my God” was used for other human beings, but others were definately called god:

Speaking to men, Christ and the psalmist said: “Ye are gods” (John 10:34, Ps. 82:6)

Moses called god: “Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.” (Ex:7:1)

Satan called god: “in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving” (2 Cor. 4:4)

God bless you

 

[yngwie7]

Hate to sound like the devil’s advocate, but I would also have to concur with the logical result. Also because Jesus does not know when he will be coming back, only his Father knows this. It is apparent that Jesus does not know everything that the Father knows.

Also, Jesus never declares himself to be God. None of the Epistles make this declaration either. All explicit verses about praying to some one is always directed to God.

But its is a matter of faith that Jesus is God as directed thru the power to bind and loose that we have the trinitarian doctrine.

I appreciate your comments because I believe you are being honest with scripture.

God bless you

 

[yngwie7]

Now, the reason as to why Jesus was put to death was on the grounds of blasphemy due to the fact that He claimed to be the Son of God, the context of which was clearly understood by the Jews to be the Only begotten Son, being of the same nature as the Father.

**John 5:18

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God**.

This quote from John is what the Jews said about Jesus. I don’t think that Jesus claimed himself to be equal with God anymore than I believe Jesus was a Sabbath breaker. He might of violated their traditions concerning the Sabbath but I don’t believe he violated the Law of Moses. If the Jews were wrong about him breaking the Sabbath, Isn’t it reasonable that they could have also been wrong about him claiming to be equal with God?

God bless you

 

[yngwie7]

As he says, sometimes you have to insert something in order for it to make sense - but that is not the case here. It makes perfect sense to literally translate it. Your friend wants to change “God” to Godly/Divine. The Greek word is a noun , accusative case; singular; masculine. There is no legitimate reason to change it to an adjective. So why does he do it? One can only surmise that it’s because what it actually says is not acceptable to him. If he wants to use Scripture to support his position, then he has to use it as it is and not rewrite it.

This proposed interpretation really stretches things to the breaking point. It takes contemporary expressions and puts them back 2000 years in time. Again, I haven’t done a search, but off the top of my head I can’t recall a single instance of such a usage in Scripture. Challenge your friend to show you a passage that would justify such an interpretation.

Now that’s really reading things into Scripture!!! Even the movements of Our Lord’s body. I’ts one thing to do such things when one is meditating in prayer on Scripture and quite another to use those imaginings as a Scriptural proof of a point. (Altho, even in meditating it’s important not to go contrary to what is given in Scripture.)

These are some good points in your critic of my paper. Especially regarding the fact that “theos” in John 1:1 is a noun and not an adjective. My paper I wrote to my friend was poorly written and I plan to rewrite it with more accurate information.

However, I think you missed my overall point. After each of those sections I said that even if these verses are understood to be calling Jesus God, it is clear from many other verses that the word God (theos) is used in reference to men and angels. Therefore I conclude that these verses do not necessarily prove that Jesus is Almighty/Eternal God.

Thank you for your comments and God bless you.

 

[yngwie7]

I’m curious tho as to why he never commented on the “Elohim” of the Old Testament (plural form of God in Hebrew) and use of plural pronouns - most notably in the creation narratives.

Exodus 7:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you God (elohim) to Pharaoh.

I don’t think anyone would argue that Moses consisted of more than one person.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"

When God said “us” he could have been refering to Himself and the angelic host who are also made in his image because they are also called sons of God.

God bless you

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Look how the phrase “Revelation of Jesus Christ” is used in scripture. It is a revelation about Jesus, not to Jesus.

Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:13
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Your christadelphian is wrong. The text is saying simply that the revelation is ABOUT Jesus, not TO Jesus – it is an objective gentive. The revelation, “unveiling” of Jesus is to John. The “him” is John, not Jesus. The “Revelation of Jesus Christ” is about Jesus. We are Jesus’ bond servants.

Revelation 1:1
Parallel Translations​

NASB: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, **which God gave Him **to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated [it] by His angel to His bond-servant John, (NASB ©1995)​

GWT: This is the revelation of Jesus Christ. God gave it to him to show his servants the things that must happen soon. He sent this revelation through his angel to his servant John. (GOD’S WORD®)​

KJV: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​

ASV: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;​

BBE: The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him so that his servants might have knowledge of the things which will quickly take place: and he sent and made it clear by his angel to his servant John;​

DBY: Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John,​

WEY: The revelation given by Jesus Christ, which God granted Him, that He might make known to His servants certain events which must shortly come to pass: and He sent His angel and communicated it to His servant John.​

WBS: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John:​

WEB: This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,​

YLT: A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John,​

bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/RobertsonsWordPictures/rwp.cgi?book=re&chapter=001&verse=001&next=002&prev=020

Romans 16:25
Glory to God ] Now to Him who has power to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the **revelation of **the sacred secret kept silent for long ages,

1 Corinthians 1:7
so that you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:7
and [to reward] with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. [This will take place] at the **revelation of **the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels,

1 Peter 4:13
Instead, as you share in the sufferings of the Messiah rejoice, so that you may also rejoice with great joy at the **revelation of **His glory.

Even if you think the “him” is Jesus, then read Phil 2, the Son of God set aside the practice of his willful attributes as God at his incarnation.

Jesus himself, told us that only the Father knows when his second coming will be.