Revelation 12

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Some say this is Mary some say Israel, as promised to NW I have a strong opinion on this and would like to see where others stand on this.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Some say this is Mary some say Israel, as promised to NW I have a strong opinion on this and would like to see where others stand on this.
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it is all three.

the messiah came out of israel

the church bears christ to the world

and mary gave birth to jesus

hyowever i believe that mary is the primary interpretation since she actually did give birth to him and since most of the characters in that part of revelation are actual characters. Also there is the whole comaprision between mary and the ark of the covanent and mary and the queen mother of the davinic kings
 
For years, before returning to the Church, I used to read Rev 12 and say to myself that this sounds an awful lot like its referring to Mary. But then I would just shake it off and move on.

It was the similarities between David receiving the ark of the covenant and Elizabeth receiving Mary that became the key…remember, Scripture interprets Scripture…that unlocked Rev 12.

There were no chapter and verse distinctions in the original text so that the immediate context of those first verses of Rev 12 is the end of Rev 11, the passage that refers to the ark of the covenant being revealed in heaven.

It is Mary that is the ark of the covenant being revealed in heaven, and there she is with a crown on her head! Hard to put a crown on a bodyless spirit, yes?

Yep, Mary is everywhere in Scripture. You just have to LOOK.

Oh yeah, there is also the similarities between Rev 12 (the woman and the dragon) and Genesis 3 (the woman and the serpent).

Peace,
Jacobaer
 
MFM- is it too bold for me to ask why you cant tell us your strong opinion of who it is (not that its gonna be hard to figure out) but could you enlighten us?:confused:
 
The woman is the People of God (Old and New) and Mary. Some say it is the Church personified in Mary.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Damascus said:
MFM- is it too bold for me to ask why you cant tell us your strong opinion of who it is (not that its gonna be hard to figure out) but could you enlighten us?:confused:
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Am quite busy at work I’ll share tonight, Sorry:o
 
I just want to clarify that Catholic teachings on Mary are not based on Revelation 12. Personally, I am not concerned if Mary is not the woman of Revelation 12, though it is strongly suggested. However, I find the argument that Revelation 12 is proof of Mary’s assumption very weak. While it might be used to reinforce the idea, I refrain from using it as proof.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Is the child in 12:5 Jesus, the child who was to rule with the rod of iron? The child who was caught up to heaven?

It certainly seems so.

Like it was said earlier, when Apocalyptic Literatures uses symbolism, it rarely mixes individuals and groups. If the child is Jesus, and the Dragon is Satan, then the woman should be Mary.

BUT, since Mary is an arch-type for the Church and for Israel, then the woman can be considered all three.

As you well know, mfm, the more you unpeal Scripture, the more you see multiple meanings. This especially holds true to Mary.
 
mikeledes said:
I just want to clarify that Catholic teachings on Mary are not based on Revelation 12. Personally, I am not concerned if Mary is not the woman of Revelation 12, though it is strongly suggested. However, I find the argument that Revelation 12 is proof of Mary’s assumption very weak. While it might be used to reinforce the idea, I refrain from using it as proof.

God Bless,
Michael
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To use it as the sole proof is not a strong argument.

To use it, along with the teaching on Mary as the New Eve, and other verses, it becomes a net that supports the teaching very well.
 
jacobaer said:
It was the similarities between David receiving the ark of the covenant and Elizabeth receiving Mary that became the key…remember, Scripture interprets Scripture…that unlocked Rev 12…
It is Mary that is the ark of the covenant being revealed in heaven, and there she is with a crown on her head! Hard to put a crown on a bodyless spirit, yes?

Yep, Mary is everywhere in Scripture. You just have to LOOK.

Oh yeah, there is also the similarities between Rev 12 (the woman and the dragon) and Genesis 3 (the woman and the serpent).

Peace,
Jacobaer
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AMEN, my brother!
 
Mary is the ultimate “type” for the Church, so in every passage where there is Church, one can “see” Mary. However, I think chapter 12 points mainly to the Church.
 
My $.02
The Revelation passage refers not to Mary but to Israel. Israel gives birth to the Messiah, Christians are later persecuted, etc.
The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10, Joseph’s dream) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the Christian church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12.
I can see how one would read that and interpret it as referring to Mary, but it isn’t; we must look at what makes more sense: is Mary being persecuted by the dragon, or is New Israel being persecuted by the dragon?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
My $.02
The Revelation passage refers not to Mary but to Israel. Israel gives birth to the Messiah, Christians are later persecuted, etc.
The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10, Joseph’s dream) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the Christian church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12.
I can see how one would read that and interpret it as referring to Mary, but it isn’t; we must look at what makes more sense: is Mary being persecuted by the dragon, or is New Israel being persecuted by the dragon?
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And Israel gave birth to Jesus through Mary, an Israelite. The Church as a whole is persecuted by the Dragon and each individual Christian is also pursued by the Devil, including Mary.

God Bless,
Michael
 
The next question…
Tell me, do you see Revelation as a symbolic book or a literal book? Because, I see it as a symbolic book. My reason for this includes Christ’s words to John (i.e. seven lamp stands), and the nature of the it, the book itself I mean.
Also, if you interpret Revelation literally versus symbolically, then Mary has “more children” in Rev 12:17. But you say Mary is a perpetual virgin. So you take the **symbolic **interpretation, that she is the mother of us all.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
My $.02
The Revelation passage refers not to Mary but to Israel. Israel gives birth to the Messiah, Christians are later persecuted, etc.
The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10, Joseph’s dream) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the Christian church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12.
I can see how one would read that and interpret it as referring to Mary, but it isn’t; we must look at what makes more sense: is Mary being persecuted by the dragon, or is New Israel being persecuted by the dragon?
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You are right that interpretation is correct. You do fail to understand that the book of Revelation is full of symbolism. It is also correct that the woman closed with the sun is Mary because the woman gave birth to a child, who is King of Kings and Lords of Lords. Who is this child? Jesus. Who is the mother of Jesus? Mary.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus gave Mary to John. “Woman behold your son.” and to his beloved disciple, “Behold your mother.”

From that, Mary becomes the Mother of all Christians. The spiritual mother. The early Christians we know by history were persecuted, and they make up the Church.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
The next question…
Tell me, do you see Revelation as a symbolic book or a literal book? Because, I see it as a symbolic book. My reason for this includes Christ’s words to John (i.e. seven lamp stands), and the nature of the it, the book itself I mean.
Also, if you interpret Revelation literally versus symbolically, then Mary has “more children” in Rev 12:17. But you say Mary is a perpetual virgin. So you take the **symbolic **interpretation, that she is the mother of us all.
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The Book of Revelation uses symbolic language to express literal truths. The fact that Revelation 12:27 says that the woman has “more children” fits perfectly with the Catholic teaching that all Christians are the spiritual children of Mary (John 19:26). Likewise, we are spiritual children of the Church.

Mary symbolizes the Church (Old an New) because she gave birth to the Messiah and was a Jew that became Christian, a perfect example of the transition from Old to New.

God Bless,
Michael
 
If Mary is the woman mentioned in Revelation 12: and if she was without sin, why is she having labor pains?
How does that square with Genesis 3:14-16, where labor pains were a curse from God because of sin?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
If Mary is the woman mentioned in Revelation 12: and if she was without sin, why is she having labor pains?
How does that square with Genesis 3:14-16, where labor pains were a curse from God because of sin?
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The labor pains symbolize the suffering endured as a result of being the Mother of the Messiah (the killing of the innocents by Herod, the flight into Egypt, watching her Son die on the Cross, etc.)

God Bless,
Michael
 
Whether this woman is truly the Mother of God or merely accommodated to her is a matter of free opinion in Catholicism. Nonetheless, very learned men, including popes, pastors, saints and Doctors of the Catholic Church have described Mary as the woman of Rev 12. .

I believe the figure of the woman of Rev 12 has more than one meaning. I believe it signifies Sancta Mater Ecclesia while also signifying Sancta Mater Dei.

*"*In [Mary] they [the faithful] acknowledge “the woman clothed in the sun” (Rev 12:1), the Queen resplendent before the throne of God (cf. Responsorial Psalm), ever interceding on their behalf."
– John Paul II, Homily 15 Aug 2005
 
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