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myfavoritmartin
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Me too, I’ll try to get on after the gym.
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Mannyfit75
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What year, and what Encyclical did he wrote that?
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myfavoritmartin
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I got it from this
Virgin Wholly Marvelous, Peter Brookby
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Mannyfit75
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Usually Popes write Encyclicals during their Papacy. I like to believe you but you fail to point which document Pope Alexander III said that Mary gave no birth pains; I doubt the validity of the sayings of Pope Alexander III.
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myfavoritmartin
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cited in, “Virgin Wholly Marvelous” Praises of Our Lady from the Popes, Councils, Saints and Doctors of the Church, by Peter Brookby, 1981.
More specifically.
More specifically.
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Mannyfit75
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Can you point out a Vatican document that states that he did say it? I don’t know how the reliable of Peter Brooky.
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itsjustdave1988
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The source I have is Denzinger-Schoenmetzer, 1963, no. 748. I’ll check it when I get home. However, this is in accord with Catholic tradition.
One must remember that Rev is figurative. The pain need not be understood literally, and as I understand it, means the pain of Holy Israel before the birth of their Messiah. But this does not preclude the “woman” of Rev 12 from having more than one meaning. It is obvious that there was only one who gave birth to the Son who would rule all nations, thus on another level, the woman is Mary. On a third level, the “woman” is Christianity being persecuted throughout the centuries.
Since the time of the early Church Fathers, the image of the woman has had a three-fold symbolism: the ancient people of Israel, the Church and the Blessed Mother.
The pain of Mary could symbolize several things. It can refer to the pain she shared when she stood at the foot of the cross (Jn 19:25), a pain prophesied by Simeon (Lk 2:34-35). Or, it could be undestood as spritural pain, much like the pain St. Paul speaks of in handing on the faith: “You are my children, and you put me back in labor pains until Christ is formed in you” (Gal 4:19).
So the pain takes on a spiritual significance, that pain in sharing in the sufferings of Christ, and that pain in being the Mother of the Church and bringing others to her Son.
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6glargento
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the labor pains are not nessesarilly literal
Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.
Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.
one reson why mary is a better figure for the woman is
in revelation 12:17
Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.
Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.
one reson why mary is a better figure for the woman is
in revelation 12:17
it says that the woman’s children are thoes who bear witness to jesus but most modern day christians are not of isreali descent so they would not look to israel as their mother as this passage says. but all true christians look to mary as their mother.
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itsjustdave1988
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In past conversations discussing the “woman” of Rev 12, some seem to have an a priori view that “woman” cannot mean more than one thing. I’ve seen this especially among Protestant apologists, but also among Catholics who are overly certain of their exegesis. I personally don’t find such a view tenable, as we know that Revelation itself testifies to multiple meanings of the figures it uses. For instance, the “***the seven heads are seven mountains …***they are also seven kings” (Rev. 17:9-10).
I “listen to the Church” (Matt 18:17), and the Church has taught since antiquity that this “woman” of Rev 12 signifies the ancient people of Israel, the Church and the Blessed Mother.
I “listen to the Church” (Matt 18:17), and the Church has taught since antiquity that this “woman” of Rev 12 signifies the ancient people of Israel, the Church and the Blessed Mother.
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itsjustdave1988
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The Douay-Rhiems commentary explains…
Verse 1 A woman… The church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady. The church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet: and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions.
Verse 1 A woman… The church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady. The church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet: and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions.
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Tom317
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Sure, we are both Christians, so there is going to be plenty of things we are on.See Tom I knew we could find common ground.
However, I am sure there are plenty of verses in chapter 12 that we probably would not agree on.
For instance, I do not think the male child is Christ, I think the male child is a Pope and I do not think chapter twelve is in the past.
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myfavoritmartin
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I am hearing the terms; figurative, literal, symbolic…
Here is where the issue of interpretation lies, I feel it’s almost oxymoronic to think something can be both symbollic and literal in the same verse. Figurative and symbollic? sure
figurative and literal? no.
I’ve also heard that this chapter was meant for all 3 definitions Mary, church and Israel,
I would like each of you to look at in a symbolic way only and tell me what you come up with?
Here is where the issue of interpretation lies, I feel it’s almost oxymoronic to think something can be both symbollic and literal in the same verse. Figurative and symbollic? sure
figurative and literal? no.
I’ve also heard that this chapter was meant for all 3 definitions Mary, church and Israel,
I would like each of you to look at in a symbolic way only and tell me what you come up with?
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myfavoritmartin
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I’m just pointing out that it’s easy for all of us to fall into these inconsistencies.
If you interpret the entire book of Rev. symoblically, I don’t see how you’d come up with the woman being anything but Israel.
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myfavoritmartin
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because there are three different symbolic references in play here, you guys have concluded or rather inferred that while Mary may be seen as the woman of Rev. 12 , the labor pain passage should not be attributed to her in particular…but rather, to Israel because ______ Let’s face it, Roman Catholic teaching has put HEAVY emphasis on this woman being Mary, to the exclusion of the other ideas, and then when defenders are faced with the fact that a contradiction exists in labor pains = being a sinner for example, they allow the alternative view to have a voice and transfer discrepancies TO that view.
From a protestant point of view we see character drawings of Mary standing over a globe with 12 stars around her head in a type of halo is made so it can continually feed the emotional craving for a mother figure who channels grace to the world.
(remember my Point of view, don’t take it personal)
Please go and investigate, as I did, what scholars say about Rev 12, and let me tell you that the majority DO NOT see Mary in play here at all.
FYI
The Catholic NAB footnote reads simply, “The woman adorned with the sun, the moon and the stars symbolizes God’s people in the Old and New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon.”
From a protestant point of view we see character drawings of Mary standing over a globe with 12 stars around her head in a type of halo is made so it can continually feed the emotional craving for a mother figure who channels grace to the world.
(remember my Point of view, don’t take it personal)
Please go and investigate, as I did, what scholars say about Rev 12, and let me tell you that the majority DO NOT see Mary in play here at all.
FYI
The Catholic NAB footnote reads simply, “The woman adorned with the sun, the moon and the stars symbolizes God’s people in the Old and New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon.”
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Riley259
Guest
An interesting interpretation of Revelation 12 is from Roy Abraham Varghese in his book about Marian apparitions entitled, “God Sent” - He suggests strongly that this passage is about Mary being the New Eve and Queen of Heaven but most interesting is his belief that the image of Mary in this passage was actually one of the earliest Marian apparitions (given to St. John the Evangelist of course).
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Mintaka
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Um… from a Catholic point of view, I always heard that there’s a great deal of fluidity of symbolism in Revelation 12, and that’s quite deliberate. The woman is Israel and Mary and the Church. Mary is the Daughter of Zion, the Daughter of Zion is Israel, Israel is the Church, the Church is the Proto-Christian…
Welcome to typology, in other words. Every symbol is symbolic of almost every other symbol, and everything is made to serve Christ and point to him.
Early Christians (from the road to Emmaus on) interpreted the Old Testament in the light of Jesus. Revelation is a sort of crystallization of all that Early Christian thought and imagery – prophecy, liturgy, eschatology, practicing the faith in individual cities, and everything else. Its literal meaning is being symbolic, because the human writer is trying to express things which go beyond his human language abilities to express. So he points and hints and pushes and uses symbolic imagery. It’s really not all that mysterious; but it’s designed to make you ponder the Mysteries.
So if you’re looking for one and only one interpretation of the entire book, you’re missing at least three or four layers of what you’re supposed to be seeing and doing.
So just relax, enjoy the ride, and soak it up. I’m sure you already know that God is Love is the Lamb is the Conquering King is the Baby is the…
Welcome to typology, in other words. Every symbol is symbolic of almost every other symbol, and everything is made to serve Christ and point to him.
Early Christians (from the road to Emmaus on) interpreted the Old Testament in the light of Jesus. Revelation is a sort of crystallization of all that Early Christian thought and imagery – prophecy, liturgy, eschatology, practicing the faith in individual cities, and everything else. Its literal meaning is being symbolic, because the human writer is trying to express things which go beyond his human language abilities to express. So he points and hints and pushes and uses symbolic imagery. It’s really not all that mysterious; but it’s designed to make you ponder the Mysteries.
So if you’re looking for one and only one interpretation of the entire book, you’re missing at least three or four layers of what you’re supposed to be seeing and doing.
So just relax, enjoy the ride, and soak it up. I’m sure you already know that God is Love is the Lamb is the Conquering King is the Baby is the…
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kleary
Guest
Prophecies often have multiple meanings.
The woman in Revelation 12 is the Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah.
The woman in Revelation 12 is the Catholic Church.
The woman in Revelation 12 is also the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Israel, as it is to be properly understood IS the Catholic Church, the “New Jerusalem” that has come down from heaven.
Ken
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myfavoritmartin
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Look at the chapter symbolically, and tell me your summary.
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myfavoritmartin
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Symbolically this synopsis holds no weight.
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Mintaka
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clunk
Well, sure, if I want to spend a week, and stomp all the life out of the chapter while I’m doing it. While I’m at it, why don’t I paraphrase a sonnet by Shakespeare into convenient Cliff Notes format?
The medium is the message here, I hate to tell you. And poetic scriptural imagery is a heckuva lot more effective (not to mention compact!) than prose is.
But sure, fine, I’ll write you a summary. At least give me the weekend to do it. Though you’d have a lot more fun reading some catena by the Fathers on it, I’m pretty sure, especially since they wouldn’t write some dry ol’ summary…
sigh Some people make lectio divina too much like work.
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