Revelation to St. Bridget says no makeup?x

[Lea101]

it’s when it becomes excessive for their own vain glory. Same with makeup, my wife doesn’t wear it very often but when she does it does enhance her looks, she looks pretty without it also, ( just thought I’d mention that as well, lol)

TBH I’m struggling to find the line between vanity and simply wanting to look beautiful.

I am saving some money for surgery and dental work (although fat chance that actually happens, thanks to tuition). But I’ve always wondered if this is vanity or not.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Private revelation. This is not doctrine, dogma, etc.

 

[MNathaniel]

(b) In itself also it is not sinful to desire that others approve one’s appearance and dress…

…10); it is venially sinful to groom oneself well from mere vanity, that is, from a silly ambition to be regarded as handsome and fashionable.

Can someone help me identify the meaningful distinction here?

Desire that others approve one’s appearance…
Ambition to be regarded as handsome…

?

Why is one vanity and one not vanity? Why is one ‘not sinful’ and one ‘venially sinful’?

Aren’t they both about basically ‘wanting others to think we look good’?

 

[Irishmom2]

I was wondering if it was the same makeup that I had seen, and when you mentioned $38 I knew it was. I cannot spend $38 on that product even though it looked like a good product. I just can’t bring myself to do it.

 

[MNathaniel]

I am saving some money for surgery and dental work (although fat chance that actually happens, thanks to tuition). But I’ve always wondered if this is vanity or not.

Personally I’d reckon dental work is not vanity because that’s almost always corrective, yes? (E.g. repairing damage from years of unhealthy habits, fixing teeth that moved and crowded during adolescence). Also dental health and a good-fitting bite is so important for long term health. I’m having a hard time imagining a dental procedure that would go beyond corrective actions, unless you plan to implant teeth made of gold. Haha.

Surgery, will probably depend on what kind of surgery and why.

 

[Truth2.0]

Blockquote Book 7, Chapter 27.

Thanks! I don’t know how my browser missed that when I was searching.

 

[CoffeeFanatic]

Truth. The one time I decided to go makeup free to work I got asked if I was sick by multiple people. My usual makeup look is natural and most people think I never wear any to begin with. They learned otherwise the day I decided to go completely makeup free. Ha!

 

[Irishmom2]

Well that’s if you wear foundation. I have never worn that and I doubt I ever will. But a little blusher, mascara and brow color helps me have a face!

 

[mary15]

I am well aquiainted with many religious sisters and nuns, and not a one wears any make up at all.

They are brides of Christ.

 

[EloyCraft]

Are coloured eyelids and long dark eyelashes signs of arousal and fertility?

Yes. An aroused state dilates the pupils. Mascara and coloring around the eyes imitates that. Fertility is enhanced when something makes us look younger, healthier, or anything that elevates status in the gene pool.

 

[babochka]

I’ve always wondered how people in humid climates wear makeup. I live in a hot and dry climate and rarely wear makeup. I especially avoid it during the summer, because who wants to have makeup dripping down your face along with the sweat?

 

[Lea101]

I mean the dental work I’m thinking of is minor and for aesthetics purposes. As for surgery, I’m thinking of corrective surgery for aesthetic purposes (as there’s no medical reason to correct it) and a minor nose job. Overall nothing major.

Does it actually matter about the type of surgery or the intention itself?

 

[Lea101]

I’ve always wondered how people in humid climates wear makeup

I live in a tropical island…you get used to it especially since most of the time you’re in an air conditioned place.

I was wondering if it was the same makeup that I had seen, and when you mentioned $38 I knew it was. I cannot spend $38 on that product even though it looked like a good product. I just can’t bring myself to do it.

If we’re thinking of the same thing or the same brand, I actually bought another shade because my complexion is darker and the gold shimmer threw me off.

I don’t really get their audience. They had an ad for a lipstick once and in their graphics, they made it look like the lipstick was melting to form the bullet shape…but it looked…phallic…to say the least. It certainly got everyone’s attention.

 

[TK421]

“Wherefore, know that two sins, which I now name to you, are being practiced and that they draw after them other sins that all seem as if venial. But because the people delight in them with the intention of persevering, they are therefore made mortal. . .

The first of the two sins is that the faces of rational human creatures are being painted with the various colors with which insensible images and statues of idols are colored so that to others, these faces may seem more beautiful than I made them. The second sin is that the bodies of men and women are being deformed from their natural state by the unseemly forms of clothing that the people are using.”

Our Lord Jesus Christ, ‘The Revelations of St. Bridget of Sweden’

It’s still pretty standard today for women religious to not wear makeup or lipstick or jewelry and such. The idea is to be simple and transparent and content.

I don’t know how exactly lay people should respond but the idea of not being swept up in fashions and appearance is really deeply embedded in Christian Tradition and there’s not really any way of avoiding it. That wouldn’t be the case unless it brought people happiness and freedom. Teachings don’t exist to drag people down, but to make their yokes easy.

 

[MNathaniel]

Does it actually matter about the type of surgery or the intention itself?

My understanding is that while there’s no fixed teaching permitting or forbidding all plastic surgery as a blanket rule, we’re counseled to consider factors like intention, risks to greater goods (e.g. family finances, health), etc.

I think there are CA articles that go into that a little more. I’m certainly no expert or authority so I won’t presume to direct you here.

 

[MNathaniel]

Reasons most women wear make-up:

1. Cover facial blemishes and discolorations on the skin that draw unnecessary attention.
2. Cover up dark circles that make them look ill and draw unnecessary attention and needless concern.
3. To look more professional and polished in the workplace or in public setting.

I mean, while all this is true…

As a woman, in wrestling with whether to stop wearing makeup entirely.

Not trying to pressure anyone else’s conscience, and I would urge everyone to look to the Church for guidance instead of to me.

But in my own conscience, I can’t shake the ‘off’ sense that applying paint to my face, to obscure those traits which make me less conventionally attractive than other women, or at least to appear more conventionally attractive than I am, is deceitful.

And in my own mind, I wonder whether part of the reason that facial blemishes and dark circles draw attention in women… is because people like me artificially cover up such blemishes and dark circles, collectively making made-up faces look artificially ‘normal’ and non-made-up faces look artificially ‘sickly’. Maybe we’d equally draw no ‘unnecessary attention’ if we just collectively stopped painting our faces and let people get used to that. The exceptionally attractive would still stand out (some women genuinely just have clear skin, bright under-eyes, and thick dark lashes), but the makeup-free wouldn’t unjustly stand out in a small group in the other direction (looking ‘worse’ than their 50 nearest neighbors who actually look the same as them under the paint). It’s like an arms race where everyone feels pressure to wear makeup because… everyone else is wearing makeup.

Anyway I don’t expect others to stop. I’m just mulling over for my own personal life of choices, whether I’ll stop. And currently thinking I will. I’ve been going without makeup a while now anyway, though I haven’t made any kind of definitive decision. I do have an advantage of currently not facing explicit workplace hazards from taking off makeup (eg no risk of being fired from a job where a certain painted ‘look’ is required to be deemed ‘professional’.). And I actually kinda like my face. Even if I can see the same ‘flaws’ everyone else can. I like the feeling when the people who look at me see my real face, whether they like it or not. And I don’t really like the feeling of “This person likes my face!.. I’d better avoid them seeing me without makeup now in case they dislike my real face in contrast.”

 

[TominAdelaide]

TominAdelaide:

(b) In itself also it is not sinful to desire that others approve one’s appearance and dress…

…10); it is venially sinful to groom oneself well from mere vanity, that is, from a silly ambition to be regarded as handsome and fashionable.

Can someone help me identify the meaningful distinction here?

Desire that others approve one’s appearance…
Ambition to be regarded as handsome…

?

Why is one vanity and one not vanity? Why is one ‘not sinful’ and one ‘venially sinful’?

Aren’t they both about basically ‘wanting others to think we look good’?

I was reading this article, “Cosmetics and the Objectification of Women” (Cosmetics and the Objectification of Women| National Catholic Register). The author notes that “it is morally sound to base our decisions in how we dress and present ourselves on the customs of our society given that how we dress respects other people and our own bodies.” She then quotes St Frances De Sales (from “Introduction to the Devout Life”) who says that “propriety in dress consists in material, fashion and cleanliness,” and as “to the material and fashion of clothes, propriety in these respects depends on various circumstances such as time, age, rank, those with whom you associate; and it varies on different occasions.” (Book III. 25)

So using the author’s definition if a person dresses from the motive of self-respect and respect for others it wouldn’t be sinful, but when a person dresses from other motives (eg so that everyone can see that I wear “designer label” brands) then one would be dressing from a motive of vanity.

 

[TominAdelaide]

I mean the dental work I’m thinking of is minor and for aesthetics purposes. As for surgery, I’m thinking of corrective surgery for aesthetic purposes (as there’s no medical reason to correct it) and a minor nose job. Overall nothing major.

Does it actually matter about the type of surgery or the intention itself?

The apologists at Catholic Answers have addressed this question, as well as the National Catholic Register and Fr Bartunek here:

Catholic Answers:

The Morality of Cosmetic Surgery

The Church doesn’t have an official teaching on the morality of cosmetic surgery for non-medical therapeutic purposes (e.g., tummy tucks, facelifts, breast augm...

www.catholic.com

Does the Catholic Church have a stand on plastic surgery?

The Church has not dealt with this issue in magisterial documents. However, moral theology would seem to offer the following considerations: Plastic surgery wou...

www.catholic.com

National Catholic Register:

Plastic Surgery: Not Just for the Rich and Famous

An aspect of health-care reform that has not been much discussed is cosmetic surgery. At a time when President Obama and other political figures are urging r...

www.ncregister.com

Fr Bartunek, Part 1 and Part 2:

What is God's Opinion on Plastic Surgery? (Part I of II)

What is God's Opinion on Plastic Surgery? (Part II of II)

Father John Bartunek answers a reader's question regarding the morality and Church's teaching on plastic surgery in part two of this two part post, more...

spiritualdirection.com

 

[babochka]

And in my own mind, I wonder whether part of the reason that facial blemishes and dark circles draw attention in women… is because people like me artificially cover up such blemishes and dark circles, collectively making made-up faces look artificially ‘normal’ and non-made-up faces look artificially ‘sickly’.

I’m a woman in my 50s. I don’t generally wear makeup, nor do I dye my hair. I have never thought of this in terms of makeup, but it comes up frequently in my mind regarding hair dye. I often look around and lament that my hair seems to be getting grayer by the day, but everyone isn’t. About 10 years ago, I realized that dyeing hair is nearly ubiquitous. Those women are getting gray, too!

 

[MNathaniel]

If you are fixated on this topic to the point you’re making suggestions for everyone to follow, even with the disclaimer of “I don’t expect others to stop”, I think that maybe taking this to your spiritual director might be beneficial.

I’m confused about why you use the same breath to accuse me of suggesting others do something, while simultaneously acknowledging that I explicitly say in my comment that I’m NOT suggesting others do that thing.

Also, accusing me of being “fixated” seems a bit harsh. I left one comment (in response to someone else bringing it up), in a casual and reflective mood. If it calms you down, I don’t think about this topic on a day-to-day basis.

You seem a bit agitated about this topic though. Maybe that’s something to reflect on yourself.