Revelation?

[Bahman]

The main questions of this thread are around the concepts to understand whether our sense of judgments are strong enough to judge revelation.

First question: Is the creation perfect considering the fact that God is omniscience and omnipotent?

Second question: Are our sense of judgments toward truth complete?

I would like to know your answers to these question first so we can discuss the subject matter better.

 

[empther]

It’s plain where this thread is going!

The usual attack on religious beliefs.

 

[Bahman]

It’s plain where this thread is going!

The usual attack on religious beliefs.

And what are you answers?

 

[agnes_therese]

It’s plain where this thread is going!

The usual attack on religious beliefs.

Ah, we have a mind-reader in our midst!

 

[Bahman]

Ah, we have a mind-reader in our midst!

And what is your answers? Can’t you stand your place and defend it?

 

[agnes_therese]

And what is your answers? Can’t you stand your place and defend it?

I was commenting on empther claiming to know your purpose in posting this thread. I don’t have to defend that. Perhaps you don’t understand the sarcasm smilie?

 

[Jim_Baur]

First question: Is the creation perfect considering the fact that God is omniscience and omnipotent?

Yes!

If your Being is all-knowing and all-powerful, I guess your God has made the world the way She wants it.

That would be perfect for Her goal.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Second question: Are our sense of judgments toward truth complete?

You gave us a good idea about your God.

What is truth?

Not knowing for sure your idea of truth, I would say some of us have gone further than others.

I hope all are going in the correct direction.

 

[empther]

The usual attack on religious beliefs.

Ah, we have a mind-reader in our midst!

Stand by, agnes. It’ll be here soon.

 

[AndrewW94]

The main questions of this thread are around the concepts to understand whether our sense of judgments are strong enough to judge revelation.

First question: Is the creation perfect considering the fact that God is omniscience and omnipotent?

Second question: Are our sense of judgments toward truth complete?

I would like to know your answers to these question first so we can discuss the subject matter better.

I suggest that you just get to the point rather than trying to trap us. Some people fall for it, some don’t. The fact that some Catholics are wrong when they talk about God doesn’t show that Catholicism is false anymore than the fact that some Mathematicians make mistakes disproves Godel’s completeness theorem.

But, to turn right arround and casually stroll through your brilliant trap:

1. ** No.** See Summa Theologica I.15.6 (dhspriory.org/thomas/summa/FP/FP025.html#FPQ25A6THEP1).
2. It is unclear what you mean here. (try using articles: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_grammar)
   If you mean: Can we make correct judgments in all things? ** No.**
   If you mean: Can we make correct judgments in some things? ** Yes.**

 

[Aloysium]

The main questions of this thread are around the concepts to understand whether our sense of judgments are strong enough to judge revelation.

First question: Is the creation perfect considering the fact that God is omniscience and omnipotent?

Second question: Are our sense of judgments toward truth complete?

I would like to know your answers to these question first so we can discuss the subject matter better.

I don’t judge revelation. Through scrpiture, God speaks to us. The Church provides us with the means to engage in a relationship with Him.

1 - If all creation is “perfect”, then nothing could be considered imperfect and perfect would have no meaning. I’m not sure what you are trying to ask. These are labels. I don’t get it. It is perfect in its totality, in its final form perhaps. This is complicated. Imperfect in its yet unfulfilled state. I don’t know where you want this to go. Saying what you mean and asking for people’s feed-back might be a better way to go.
2 - To me, your second question is a bunch of words with no meaning. Seriously, it sounds like it came from a random word generator. I’m not trying to make fun of your abilities with english, but I do wonder if you are able understand the responses.

 

[Bahman]

First question: Is the creation perfect considering the fact that God is omniscience and omnipotent?

Yes!

So we don’t need revelation.

If your Being is all-knowing and all-powerful, I guess your God has made the world the way She wants it.

I change your sentence slightly. If all our beings could become all knowing then the creation at one point reaches its goal.

 

[Bahman]

Second question: Are our sense of judgments toward truth complete?

You gave us a good idea about your God.

What is truth?

Truth by definition is what can explain a subject matter well. Truth is achievable meaning that everybody can gain it when a minimal amount of mind exercise is performed. Through this process we can gain knowledge which does not exhaust the whole truth but a part of it leaving some inexplicable quality so called problems or anomalies which are mind stimuluses, causing minds to move.

Not knowing for sure your idea of truth, I would say some of us have gone further than others.

It turns inside out by time. I also believe that finding truth is partially a personal journey partially group journey.

I hope all are going in the correct direction.

I hope so.

 

[Bahman]

I suggest that you just get to the point rather than trying to trap us. Some people fall for it, some don’t. The fact that some Catholics are wrong when they talk about God doesn’t show that Catholicism is false anymore than the fact that some Mathematicians make mistakes disproves Godel’s completeness theorem.

I agree that I did evil, but evil could be good if it could put people in contradiction, making them to think through.

But, to turn right arround and casually stroll through your brilliant trap:

1. ** No.** See Summa Theologica I.15.6 (dhspriory.org/thomas/summa/FP/FP025.html#FPQ25A6THEP1).

So by no you accept that God could do so, why he didn’t so? I would be happy to have your opinion rather than a link. That helps me to save my time and helps you to convey what you have learn the best possible form. But for now lets assume that “no” is the correct answer.

1. It is unclear what you mean here. (try using articles: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_grammar)
   If you mean: Can we make correct judgments in all things? ** No.**
   If you mean: Can we make correct judgments in some things? ** Yes.**

I meant if we could properly judge all thing well.

Do we need to be able to judge revelation in order to understand its trueness? Now I open the trap this time. There are two options:

1. Yes. What is the point of revelation then since it was accessible to our mind?
2. No. How we (human being including Church Authority) could interpret the context without a sense of judgment? Revelation in this case is meaningless to us since we could not judge its trueness.

 

[Bahman]

I don’t judge revelation.

Then how you could understand the context and defend it being a Christian?

Through scrpiture, God speaks to us. The Church provides us with the means to engage in a relationship with Him.

But they are human being like you. So how they can understand the context and you can’t?

1 - If all creation is “perfect”, then nothing could be considered imperfect and perfect would have no meaning.

No, creation could be prefect but the elements or being withing imperfect.

I’m not sure what you are trying to ask. These are labels. I don’t get it. It is perfect in its totality, in its final form perhaps.

Bravo, that is the meaning of time.

This is complicated. Imperfect in its yet unfulfilled state. I don’t know where you want this to go. Saying what you mean and asking for people’s feed-back might be a better way to go.

We are having a good progress by now and this not complicated. Let me tell you what I mean. Creation is perfect meaning the whole is perfect but the elements within are scattered hence time is needed that different elements sit together properly reaching a higher level of complexity granting what is hidden within elements.

2 - To me, your second question is a bunch of words with no meaning. Seriously, it sounds like it came from a random word generator. I’m not trying to make fun of your abilities with english, but I do wonder if you are able understand the responses.

I am trying my best trying to understand you. By the second question I meant, whether we can reach to high level of excellence to judge everything and can understand the whole truth coded within elements considering the fact that the creation is perfect.

 

[empther]

There it is, agnes, as I promised.

Bahman says we don’t need divine revelation.

In that case,
there are many things we could not know.
For example: the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
The Old Testament writers seemed to suspect that there were more than one person in God, but they could not be sure until Jesus proclaimed it.
Without the Holy Trinity doctrine,
the purpose of the Incarnation is lost. Indeed, there’s no need for Christianity. We won’t be saved.

I told you so, agnes.

 

[Bahman]

There it is, agnes, as I promised.

Bahman says we don’t need divine revelation.

In that case,
there are many things we could not know.
For example: the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
The Old Testament writers seemed to suspect that there were more than one person in God, but they could not be sure until Jesus proclaimed it.
Without the Holy Trinity doctrine,
the purpose of the Incarnation is lost. Indeed, there’s no need for Christianity. We won’t be saved.

I told you so, agnes.

This is beyond the subject of this thread but let me know what do you think of that. Apparently God appears as human being in several places to other prophets:

Abraham:

Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.” (Genesis 18:1–3)

Jacob:

Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. . . . And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”

And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:24–25, 28–30)

 

[empther]

The Old Testament writers did not always distinguish between God and one of God’s angels,
but either could have put on the appearance of a man.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

The main questions of this thread are around the concepts to understand whether our sense of judgments are strong enough to judge revelation.

First question: Is the creation perfect considering the fact that God is omniscience and omnipotent?

Second question: Are our sense of judgments toward truth complete?

I would like to know your answers to these question first so we can discuss the subject matter better.

Catholics do not interpret Revelation for themselves, the Magisterium of the Church, which is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit, does that for us.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

Catholics do not interpret Revelation for themselves, the Magisterium of the Church, which is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit, does that for us.

Linus2nd

I am afraid to say the Magisterium of the Church is not the only one which claims so. All religious institution claim that they have connection by God since otherwise they lose their authorities on interpretation of their holy books. So we return to the old problem that I raised namely how could we distinguish the right religion from the wrong one, not having the ability to judge the trueness of each holy book?