Revelations...are we ready...

[tommy1234]

Here are a few dangers of following religion first rather then God in my opinion. We don’t always know what a doctrine or a council could put in place and that is why I think trust in the Bible and not a specific religion is important. Here is where I think the human race went wrong and why we are now standing on the crest of the great tribulation. God wanted one thing from us, since he created us, our sincere love and devotion and devotion is the key word here. However, we have a supreme leader, God To find the key to Revelations we must realize that much of it is symbolism as it tells us that in the first chapter. Revelation 18:2-3, unfortunately refers to the mass of false religion that will fall prior to the end of the system of things including the group who committed fornication in the last days and the scandal which has cost a billion dollars in defending itself. Revelations is a hard Book of the Bible and we need to learn in my opinion what is the 10 horns and what they represent. We also need to learn what is meant by the beast, the wild beast and Babylon the Great. Jeremiah Chapter 51:49 in the OT refers to Babylon as the ones responsible for the Israelites being “slaughtered” which could be symbolic what group (this might not mean all the individual members) will fall under Babylon the Great since the Bible uses symbolism and the OT and NT ties together.

 

[tommy1234]

I learned that many Catholics are loaded with Bible knowledge, so how could all these members be all wrong? I don’t think that Babylon the Great is just 100% Catholic Religion, but the whole mass of false religion that has been led astray by political and church leaders, nations and anything else that is not 100% complete devotion to God through Jesus as opposed to man. I went on the search engine and typed in holocaust, Catholic religion and WWII because it has often been said that the Catholic Religion is the whore of Babylon the Great and a book came up below you can read, its free. Then I learned this, During WWII, pope Pius VII, remained silent during the killing of the Jews and God has instructed through Moses that “Thou shall not kill”. It was the ordinary Catholics that helped hide the Jews out of compassion for their fellow man and the pope, a human leader, turned his back to the biggest crime ever committed. However, millions were killed and only thousands were saved. Read this free book written by Michael Phayer about how the Vatican was silent about the holocaust http://iupress.indiana.edu/textnet/0-253-33725-9/0253108349.htm Rev 17:3-7 discusses the Beast (false religion) in Scarlet Red which could represent in my personal opinion, the blood of the millions killed when “nation went against nation” in WWII by those who were responsible and/or supported it. In Fascist Italy, on February 11, 1929, the Lateran Treaty was signed by Mussolini making Vatican City a sovereign state. Pope Pius XI claimed that he had “given Italy back to God, and God back to Italy”. Then six years later in October of 1935 Italy invades Abyssinia, claiming that is was “a barbarous land which still practices slavery” which was not condemned by the Vatican.

 

[tommy1234]

We see last month on Showtime “our Fathers” and about Cardinal Bernard Law ending up getting a promotion after all of the cover up in the priest sex scandal. This also has happened at other religions like the Protestants. The Smith’s Bible Dictionary published in the early 1900’s says “Babylon (or Rome) in another form, the Papal despotism, a compound of Paganism and Christianity”. OK, then what defines paganism? Who is St. Patrick and St. Valentine and why don’t we read their names in the Bible? Is prayer directed to Saints paganism and do they get heard since it is not directed through Jesus to the Almighty One? As always, I do not know the answers, but am putting these issues up to share my thoughts in what I read in the Bible for purposes of debate and please be discerning about some of these sensitive topics that could be off and in some regards should be off, as like most of you I am a Bible student, that’s all. What are the ten horns referring to in Revelations? “Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where woman sits on top. And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while”. Revelations 17:9,10. Both terms are used scripturally to refer to governmental powers (Jeremiah 51: 24, 25: Daniel 2:34, 35, 44, 45).Six world powers are mentioned as having an impact on the affairs of God’s people: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece. Of these, five had already come and gone by the time John received Revelation, whereas Rome was still very much a world power. This corresponds well with “five have fallen, one is”. But what of the “other” that was due to come? By the 19th century the Anglo-American world power was added. An angel explained to John, And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eight king, but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction Rev 17:11. How do we know that beasts are governments? Certain world powers of history appear directly in the Bible record as nations. Egypt, the serpent and also the bull, as well as Assyria usingthe bull. Medo-Persia used the Eagle. Athens used the Owl. Rome, the Eagle. In addition, Great Britain is designated by the Lion. The U.S., the Eagle. From the most remote times China has symbolized by the dragon and Russia the Bear.

 

[tommy1234]

The symbolic scarlet-colored wild beast “springs from” the seven heads; that is, it is born from, or owes its existence to, those heads of the original “wild beast”…out of the sea”, of which the scarlet-colored wild beast is an image. What does this all mean? Well the Anglo-American power was the ascended head. The previous six heads had fallen and the position of the dominant world power had passed to this dual head and was now centered in it. This seventh head,as the current representative of the line of world powers, was the moving force in establishing the League of Nations and is still the major promoter and financial support of the UNITED NATIONS. Therefore, in symbol, the scarlet color wild beast, the eighth king “springs” from the original seven heads. Looked at like this, the statement that is sprang from the seven harmonizes well with the earlier revelation that the wild beast with two horns like a lamb (the Anglo-American World Power, the seventh head of that original wild beast) urged the making of the image and gave it life Rev. 13:1, 11, 14, 15. Therefore, the United Nations is also itself designed to look like a world government. At times it has acted like one sending people to war. As John soon learns, the time will come when the UN will act with considerable authority and call a war that “goes off into destruction”.

 

[tommy1234]

Is this God’s war at Armageddon and that Babylon the Great will only be remembered at that time rev. 16:1, 14, 19. “And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received authority as kings one hour with the wild beast. These will battle with the Lamp, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of Kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also those called and chosen and faithful with him will do so”. Rev. 17:12-14. The ten horns are all political powers that presently hold sway on the world scene and that support the image of the wild beast (United Nations). The irony here is that it was the League of Nations and the United Nations organization that was supposed to preserve world peace. God has purposed that His Kingdom under Jesus Christ will shortly replace all these kingdoms Daniel 7:13, 14, Matthew 24:30 25: 31-33, 46. Of course there is nothing the rulers of this world can do against Jesus Christ himself. He is in heaven. However, soon the time sill come for God’s Kingdom to “crush and put an end to all these kingdoms Daniel 2:44. Now we know the nations will not succeed against Jesus. Certainly the immense material wealth of Babylon the Great will not save her. The vision shows that when the wild beast (nation) and the ten horns vent their hatred on her they will strip off her royal robes and all her jewelry. They will plunder her wealth, make her naked, shamefully expose her real character. The one billion in priest molestation suits by all religions, not just the big one, could be some of these first pangs. The UN will give sanction to the destruction of false religion.

 

[tommy1234]

So in the end, the wide spread doubt may empty the church leaving the religion dead and perhaps not the members who then follow true Christianity, Jesus’ teachings and they don’t follow doctrines, praise church leaders, and give up the belief that when you are dying in war you are dying for God. Not true, in war we die for a nation and not God. Yes, the nations will use the scarlet-colored wild beast, the United Nations, in destroying Babylon the Great. Thus, the ancient harlot will come to her complete end. “and the women whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth” Rev. 17:18. This is the mystery of the great harlot and the scarlet colored beast. John Lennon said in Revolution “talk about distruction, you can count me out, in”. I heard in an interview with Lennon that he wasn’t sure either on the topic of destruction, especially if someone is attacking you, what we should do. Jesus said it is better to loose and eye or a hand, then loosing your sould and the chance of everlasting life. I also do not believe the whole world will be destroyed, just satan driven out of it and locke-up in the abyss. Peace and Love to all, tommy m/n

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tommy1234:

Here are a few dangers of following religion first rather then God in my opinion. We don’t always know what a doctrine or a council could put in place and that is why I think trust in the Bible and not a specific religion is important.

This is where you go wrong.

Trust in the Bible. Let me guess, your a protestant and you hold to sola scriptura.

Tell me this, where did the Bible come from?

What did the Church do before the Bible came to be?

Can you show me 1) where in the Bible the list of the Books of the Bible is and 2) where in teh Bible does it say that it is the only source?

Catholics follow the Bible as well as Tradition.

 

[E.E.N.S]

tommy1234:

Here are a few dangers of following religion first rather then God…

We don’t follow a religion *rather *than God, the religion brings us to God…otherwise where would we get Truth? And how would we know it to be true?

tommy1234:

We don’t always know what a doctrine or a council could put in place and that is why I think trust in the Bible and not a specific religion is important.

ByzCath does a good job here…what I want to know is, why do you believe in the Bible? (I know why you should, but I want to hear your reasoning.)

Also here are a couple of links you might enjoy on some of the “last things” such as the Whore of Babylon, etc.

catholic.com/library/Whore_of_Babylon.asp

catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp

 

[tommy1234]

Hi:

I hope you all know that Revelations is a very intense subject and I too don’t like all of the subject matter, other than the eventual rulership by Jesus in Heaven. To answer your question, I am not a Protestant and was a Catholic for many years. I am a Bible student and am non-denominational. I put hours researching this thread and compiling it and sincerely believe that many followers of all denominations will find salvation when we are in front of Jesus after the great war happens. This post is not about me it is just about what is stated in the Bible and Historical events that I have compiled that I have often heard that it is a mystery, It is not a mystery and covered in history and the Bible (all versions, but I like the New Jerusalem version the best)! I got to go to work now,. Peace and Love, tommy

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tommy1234:

Hi:

I hope you all know that Revelations is a very intense subject and I too don’t like all of the subject matter, other than the eventual rulership by Jesus in Heaven. To answer your question, I am not a Protestant and was a Catholic for many years. I am a Bible student and am non-denominational. I put hours researching this thread and compiling it and sincerely believe that many followers of all denominations will find salvation when we are in front of Jesus after the great war happens. This post is not about me it is just about what is stated in the Bible and Historical events that I have compiled that I have often heard that it is a mystery, It is not a mystery and covered in history and the Bible (all versions, but I like the New Jerusalem version the best)! I got to go to work now,. Peace and Love, tommy

If you are not a Catholic, then you are a protestant.

So you place yourself in authority.

Before I will reply again I will ask you to do two thinks for me.

1. Answer the questions I asked earlier.
2. Where in the Bible does it give you the authority.

One other thing, you said, “We don’t always know what a doctrine or a council could put in place” but you are wrong here, we do know as the councils are guided by the Holy Spirit and are protected from error, just as the Bible is.

 

[tommy1234]

ByzCath:

If you are not a Catholic, then you are a protestant.

So you place yourself in authority.

Before I will reply again I will ask you to do two thinks for me.

1. Answer the questions I asked earlier.
2. Where in the Bible does it give you the authority.

One other thing, you said, “We don’t always know what a doctrine or a council could put in place” but you are wrong here, we do know as the councils are guided by the Holy Spirit and are protected from error, just as the Bible is.

OK Byscath let me try again, Protestants have priests that are molestors, maybe not the billion dollar molestors, but this is clearly an act of Satan through man and Protestants are false religion and I definately do not follow a sect that gives man the same authority as God, in other words, you can count me out of the Protestant group. I spent years as a Catholic and the last three years learning a lot of truths that have made a difference in my life. I really don’t think the practicing members that follow religion are going to fall with Bablylon the Great, just the truth will undress her and the wide hallways will become empty, more like a musuem. Matthew says the road to everlasting life is narrow and crampted and I believe everything he says, even the bit that we should not call anyone Father in a religious sense, without other interpetations of something so simple. We only need the Bible, councils and doctrines lead to false teachings that could even make one believe that Jesus and God are not two seperate entities acting in agreement and unity together. Jesus was around with his Father if you look at Genesis 1:26 " And God went on to say, let “us” make man in our image". Who is “us”? Jesus and God, yes, they were together back then and seperate, not one, like the trinity developed in the 2nd Century by a “coundil” might lead one to believe.

As far as authority, my authority is the same as your authority saying something like before I respond…Its called freedom of religion in the USA (wild beast). As I said Revelations is disturbing and if this didn’t point out some truths to false teachings this thread would not be so bothersome and would be ignored. When I read something I disagree with and write off as way off base, I ingore it. I know there are some truths here and yes, the truth can be disturbing. Believe me sister, don’t trust councils or doctrines, only what you read in the Bible. God gave us enough to go off of in the Bible and the last verse of Revelation John says not to add or subtract from the Word of God. Remember too, Jesus’ main commandment was to love one another, even if there are disagreements and Christian brotherly (and sisterly) love is the main sign of being a true Christian. Back to work the rest of the day… I wish you all the peace and love in the world, tommy

 

[E.E.N.S]

tommy1234:

Matthew says the road to everlasting life is narrow and crampted and I believe everything he says, even the bit that we should not call anyone Father in a religious sense, without other interpetations of something so simple.

Paul refered to himself as a spiritual father many many times, so did some of the other apostles.

tommy1234:

We only need the Bible, councils and doctrines lead to false teachings…

The “Bible alone” or “sola scriptura” idea has been proven rediculous from so many angles I need not go into them here (read “Sola Scriptura” by Robert Sungenis)…but precisely because of this “Bible alone” mentality since the late 1500’s is why you see so many different ideas, and dissention from the Truth. The doctrines are meant to hold fast to the truths of faith. (In short, you have it completely backwards.)

tommy1234:

As far as authority, my authority is the same as your authority…

Yes, in the fact of God, but he speaks through the vicar of Christ here on earth, just like in Matt 16:18 prescribes.

tommy1234:

…don’t trust councils or doctrines, only what you read in the Bible. God gave us enough to go off of in the Bible and the last verse of Revelation John says not to add or subtract from the Word of God.

You are wrong not to trust the Church, as Christ instituted the Church, preached through the Church, and died for the Church - never did He tell the apostles to write a book…and you are right about the last line in Rev., do not detract from the Word of God (Paul tells us that when he speaks in the name of Christ, that those oral words he spoke were in fact the very Word of God - whether written or spoken!)

You say that you don’t fall into the “Protestant group,” but in fact that is exactly what you fall into. The Protestant name comes from protesting the Catholic Church and Her teachings. (“Bible alone” mentality is extremely protestant as well.)

But you are at least partially right, in the fact that Christ did command us to love one another, so that is why I beg of you to re-examine the truths of faith, and open your heart to the Holy Spirit.

God bless.

 

[At_His_Feet]

Tommy - welcome to the forum. You said (among many other things) - “We only need the Bible…” I did a little checking and I see that some of your post is from a commentary on the book of Revelations. You also said "… I am a Bible student, that’s all." But I would like to ask you this - if you are studying this commentary on Revelation, than you are more than just a Bible student, aren’t you? That would make you are a student of that commentary, wouldn’t it?

Tommy, there are people here who would be willing to discuss the beliefs of the Catholic church with you, in a sane, orderly way. You’re going too fast. Take it one by one. Then you’ll get a response. There are people here also who would be willing to discuss the beliefs of those who put out that commentary on Revelation, also, in light of the Bible.

Some of the things you bring up are dealt with over on the Catholic Answers website. Like prayers to the saints. Like “call no man Father”. Have you gone over there and checked it out? If so, what did you think of what they had to say?

You still left Byz Cath’s question unanswered - where did the non-Catholics get the Bible from? How do you know that the books in your Bible are the right ones?

And I’ll throw my own question in to boot - You’ve said that there was apostacy already as early as the 2nd century. OK - what was God doing all those years between the death of the apostles and, say, the 1800s? Did he not have visible representatives? If so , who was it? Didn’t Jesus say that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church? How do you answer that?

Take care, friend. Please think about what you’re doing. Stick around and go read some of the stuff over on the Catholic Answers website. I look forward to seeing more of you. God bless, AHF

 

[catsrus]

we are now standing on the crest of the great tribulation.

Revelation 18:2-3, unfortunately refers to the mass of false religion that will fall prior to the end of the system of things

the whole mass of false religion that has been led astray by political and church leaders, nations

I am a Bible student

Yes, the nations will use the scarlet-colored wild beast, the United Nations, in destroying Babylon the Great.

And God went on to say, let “us” make man in our image". Who is “us”? Jesus and God, yes, they were together back then and seperate, not one, like the trinity developed in the 2nd Century by a “coundil” might lead one to believe.

tommy1234, if you are not a jehovah’s witness, you are giving an excellent imitation of one.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tommy1234:

OK Byscath let me try again, Protestants have priests that are molestors, maybe not the billion dollar molestors, but this is clearly an act of Satan through man and Protestants are false religion and I definately do not follow a sect that gives man the same authority as God, in other words, you can count me out of the Protestant group.

Protestants do not have priests.

Non-denomational Christians are protestants. They owe their existance to the Protestant reformation.

We only need the Bible, councils and doctrines lead to false teachings that could even make one believe that Jesus and God are not two seperate entities acting in agreement and unity together.

You claim that you were once a Catholic and that you learn alot but you seem to be missing the very basics.

You are aware that the Bible we have today was put together by one of those councils you denouce.

So if we should not follow the councils of the Church then you have to toss out the Bible because without the Church and it councils you would not have the Bible.

As far as authority, my authority is the same as your authority saying something like before I respond…Its called freedom of religion in the USA (wild beast).

Were is that in the Bible? Freedom of religion?

Believe me sister, don’t trust councils or doctrines, only what you read in the Bible. God gave us enough to go off of in the Bible and the last verse of Revelation John says not to add or subtract from the Word of God. Remember too, Jesus’ main commandment was to love one another, even if there are disagreements and Christian brotherly (and sisterly) love is the main sign of being a true Christian. Back to work the rest of the day… I wish you all the peace and love in the world, tommy

Sister? Do you read my posts? I am a male.

God gave us the Church and though that Church the Canon of the Bible was discerned. There was no Bible in the early Church, it did not come to be, as we have it today, until the late second and early third centuries.

I find it strange how someone who makes the claims that you do can not point to the sections of the Bible that 1) give a list of its Books and 2) say that the Bible is the sole source of Faith.

But then by your ignoring the questions while continuing to spout protestant ideas shows what your agenda is and it is just a waste of time to go on, so I won’t.

 

[Ignatius]

tommy1234:

Here are a few dangers of following religion first rather then God in my opinion.

Religion: the service and worship of God. You can make up some definition of your own, and follow your won opinion, but this is what the English word means. Given that, religion is the way that you serve God. Remember that Bible tells us “do not lean to your own understanding.”

We don’t always know what a doctrine or a council could put in place and that is why I think trust in the Bible and not a specific religion is important.

This is a novel statement since the New Testament was determined by the Catholic Church at the Council of Carthage. It is the Catholic Church, guided and protected by the Holy Spirit, which protected the Scripture and delivered it in pristine form down through the millenia. Do yourself a favour and get the book “Where we got the Bible”.

Here is where I think the human race went wrong and why we are now standing on the crest of the great tribulation. God wanted one thing from us, since he created us, our sincere love and devotion and devotion is the key word here.

Jesus Christ came to save us from our sin. That is the reason that He founded His Church, to bring us to His salvation and everlasting life. The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of TRUTH. That TRUTH is not a thing but a person, Jesus Christ.

May the grace of God, the love of Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

 

[MMG]

It appears that you believe that the bible appeared out of the sky and God’s teaching and guidance can only come from the bible.
Many people have studied the bible and other writings as astutely as you, what make your interpretation correct?

 

[Genesis315]

The non-denominational “I have no religion” religion is just another johnny-come-lately error laden version of Protestantism.

Dear Tommy 1234,

I know you are all alone with your Bible, but the Bible speaks of having bishops. Where are yours?

 

[tommy1234]

Thanks for all your responses. I sort of expected a welcome to Catholic Answers tommy, but this will do? I meant that I am not following a denomination (I’m hiding, rocks hurt)…sorry…Do I do dare say I am studing with the Wittnesses here? I know you guys hate them as I have read your posts and disagree where I was almost laughing as they have been the most king hearted people I have ever met, true Christians! Please don’t take this personally anybody because I am only stating my views in the most truthful way that I can.

I am not one of them yet because I am not 100% undefiled yet in God’s standards of how I want to be (getting close). I am also not convinced on ALL of their teachings (or any one religion that can use authority) either, like predicting 1914 to be the end of the world, not celebrating Mothers and Fathers Day, only undefiled ones take the Body and Blood. Taking it annually seems more correct that the weekly reenactment of the Last Supper.

Their accurate understanding of who Yahweh (yes, that word that Satan doesn’t like) Jehovah God and Jesus is very accurate. So is their study of the book of Daniel and the prophecies, Psalms, stuff from King Solomon and much more then I ever leaned with four decades in the Catholic Church and a Senior member of one of their committee and a wash of volunteer stuff that we actually enjoyed some of it. The Finance Council I chaired told me the focus was on money when we had trouble meeting the 25K weekly collection and is all the Pastor ever wanted to discuss with his committee (I realize all churches are not focused on money, our congregation is not).

But my beliefs are different than those of you here, and I am sure I will not be welcomed because they are different.

I don’t think times are better nowr then they were when Jesus was living and most who were alive then were not following what Jesus wanted. I don’t think that has changed much. I honestly feel the knowledge of what I have gained over the last three years has brought my family closer to God and Jesus. We were able to casually go thru each Book of the Bible and understand it cleary. I read from the New Jerusalem Bible and don’t restrict myself to any readings from one group. I do enjoy the masses of the free books that are available for free from our study group at the Hall. People hate witnesses here just like the Jews hated Christ and I believe that. Thats why I posted my “bit on love” prior to this one. Then last night I put up a real cute on Jesus’ Wedding at Cana and a really intense one on why God permits suffering. These were sort of on the light and fluffy side. Sat for a day, no response to the first two. Nothing on the one making a joke about the person driving the camel drunk under the Wedding at Cana or a welcome. Some things don’t change here. Remember Christian Brother love and kindness to all everybody, especially the least, and what would Jesus do? Peace and Love, tommy AKA MosesNoah

Also remember this point is not about me on this post, it is about issues in the Chapter of Revelations that can be debated among yourselves. Just one question though, how come if this was the post you guys didn’t like, wouldn’t Love make you want to respond to my other three more light hearted ones (they were a good opening for a thread) rather then this intense one on Revelations?

 

[tommy1234]

I just wanted to say peace and love to you all here since we are all Christians. May the love of Jesus, be with you all, tommy