Revelations...are we ready...

[catsrus]

Do I do dare say I am studing with the Wittnesses here?

Read my post #13. I had your arguements pegged at the outset as I once too “studied” with the jws. For your own sake, please read a history of their “religion”. Sure they’re “the most kind hearted people” you’ve ever met - until you begin to question their theology in any way.
Please also notice that their arguements are always taken out of context. You are responsible for your own soul and must weigh very carefully what you are being told.
When you post “your” (read jw) ideas on a Catholic form, do you not expect the Catholic answers? Do you not think that we have all heard every arguement out there against The One True Faith? What sort of “welcome” were you expecting?
Careful not to buy the jw line that they are persecuted for their beliefs. There is a huge gap between persecution and disagreement.
Since you are so interested in finding fault with The RCC, I suggest you also look into the backyard of the jws. Open your eyes and, most especially, your mind.

 

[At_His_Feet]

Tommy - You say that you’re not in agreement about 1914 - but that’s pretty major stuff, isn’t it? That date is fundamental to the way they view themselves and everything else, isn’t it? Do you know how they arrived at that date? Does it make sense to you?

You say that celebrating the Lord’s Meal once a year seems to make more sense than doing it weekly - have you taken a look at how often the early Christians took it? Weekly, on Sundays.
They called Sunday “the Lord’s Day”. You can look that up in Justin Martyr’s first apology (and elsewhere), but I believe it’s also quoted in section 1345 of the Catholic Catechism.

Doesn’t that count for something? Justin Martyr didn’t get the name “martyr” for nothing, right? When you see pics in the WT literature of early Christians being fed to the lions, isn’t it worthwhile to look into what the beliefs of those Christians were?

And about “Yahweh” - why did they put “Jehovah” 237 times in the New Testament, when there is not one ancient mauscript to support it? What kind of “conspiracy” would it have taken to remove that name from ALL manuscripts? Would it even have been possible? tetragrammaton.org/

Just some thoughts Tommy. Stick around.

 

[tommy1234]

I will say that the prediction of the end of the world in 1914 was a mistake by the JW’s as well as other dates predicting the end of the world. It is not up to man to find out when this will occur.

However, 1914 was coming up as a significant date through UK periodicals as early as 1822. I don’t have the material with me right now in my car but could quote this info later. This date of 1914 being the beginning of WW1 did mark when nation went against nation, which could respresent when Michael (who by the way is Jesus throught the Rev. symbolism), the Archangel drove Satan out of Heaven and down to Earth.

I kept of list over a three year period comparing what was wrong with both JW’s (no Mothers day, Fathers day and predicting the end of the world topped the list) and the Catholic religion. I compared this list to the billion dollar molestation problem and the authority of men leaders and ties to government which has swayed me to realize the 1914 issue wasn’t as big as the the other issues I saw where man has taken worship that belonged to God.

I think that all sects of religion has problems when man is involved. Our sect does not use leaders and rotates speakers among senior individuals and their is a more intense study of the Bible.God wanted one thing, a true sincere devotion to Him and His name and that has been lost in the Catholic religion where Yahweh and Jevohah hasn’t been used in the US. I learned that this is not so much the case in the Catholic Religion in Europe. I have also learned that Catholics are not all wrong either because there is a group of practicing Catholics like most of you folks here. However I did see from an insiders veiw on a big Catholic committee the focus was on money and some may know what I am talking about. All of our congregation is practicing and we don’t have non-practicing members like on the big boat. All the JW basing here lacking Christian brotherly love also reaffirms my faith, are we not supposed to love one another as Jesus’ new and main command? Other sites do not do the JW bashing, look around. OK, I know you will say I’m doing the same, but read hard in some of my words how much I think of the practicing members, after all, I have two parents and eight brothers and sisters that are all Catholics and they rarely open the Bible and do not even bring one to church when they go about once a month.

I live in the San Francisco area and there are so many non-practicing Catholics, you would not believe it. They rarely go to church, but claim they are Catholic.

Why am I here? good question. I was a Catholic for 40 years and like to hear if responses contain true christian brotherly love, some do, but most don’t and it reaffirms my faith. I also like to learn the opposing view so I am in a better position of knowlegde.

It has helped me spiritually learning to praise God through Jesus and that the two are seperate. Some Catholics aknowledge the two being seperate and some say the two are one.

I also find here that if you don’t go along with the mainstreat of throught, you are eventually banned which doesn’t provide for a true open debate among opposing views plus this is a non-Catholic part of the site.

My two positive posts I put up first didn’t receice any response and didn’t have much controversy in them. I do think people here are looking for controversy and then want to say theey will then pray for you because it personally makes them feel good.

I am a moderator on another cite that comes up under the search “religion forum comparative”, you can find it. We always welcome new members with a welcome post to them and if the debate is positive we allow their thoughts and encouragre them and rarely bann someone unless they become obnoxious.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and reaffirming my faith. Peace and love, tommy

 

[scylla]

Well Tommy, I would like to say hello to you and you are most welcome here. It is difficult to respond to your posts, not because there are no answers, there is a full and complete answer to any question you have posted, it is just that to answer each of your many subjects would take different threads.

I really suggest you just ask one question and we can discuss it fully, if you are looking for the truth. I have several friends who are Jehovah’s Witnesses including my aunt and I care for them all. I might not agree with their interpretation of the Bible but I do find that Catholics for the most part are very charitable to denominations and groups out there even if we don’t agree.

Please don’t judge Catholics just on who you know but also on what is the truth. I do not judge Jehovahs Witnesses on their actions even though I know a few who are less than perfect people. They are not examples of Jehovah’s Witness teaching as are Catholics who do not follow the Catholic Church.

We should look to see if teaching is truth and if the Catholic Church or the Jehovah’s Witness or someone else is teaching the truth. The individual members might do wrong but is that following the truth?

My brother was a Catholic for about 34 years and now has fallen away, unfortunately he is in a very extreme group that is vehemenently anti-catholic. Which is easy to do as a lot of objections to Catholic teaching are objections to what people think the Church is.

Don’t worry about getting banned just don’t misrepresent the truth and remain charitable. There are many people who have been here a long time discussing and debating. Just don’t prostelytize as we are willing to listen if you are willing to listen. The people who get banned don’t listen and just wait to talk.

May God bless you on your search for truth,
Scylla

 

[catsrus]

Our sect does not use leaders and rotates speakers among senior individuals

So what are the overseers, not to mention the office in Brooklyn?

I think that all sects of religion has problems when man is involved.

See question above.

However I did see from an insiders veiw on a big Catholic committee the focus was on money and some may know what I am talking about. All of our congregation is practicing and we don’t have non-practicing members like on the big boat.

One Catholic committee is NOT The Church and has nothing whatsoever to do with Doctrine.
The reason you don’t have non-practicing members is because if one does not tow the jw line, they are disfellowshipped.

I have two parents and eight brothers and sisters that are all Catholics and they rarely open the Bible and do not even bring one to church when they go about once a month.
I live in the San Francisco area and there are so many non-practicing Catholics, you would not believe it. They rarely go to church, but claim they are Catholic.

So your non-practicing family means…what?
I too live in the San Francisco area and there are many believing, practicing, Mass attending Catholics here. You are not seeing what you do not want to see.

Just one question though, how come if this was the post you guys didn’t like, wouldn’t Love make you want to respond to my other three more light hearted ones (they were a good opening for a thread) rather then this intense one on Revelations?

Looks to me as though every responder has attempted an address. You lumped quite a bit into your posts. Pick one topic and the folks here will be glad to discuss it. Try not to make umteen points in one post.
You are showing signs of hopeing to be “persecuted” here.
Take the time to go to www.catholicxjw.com
Having once been a jw, Jeff will be glad to discuss things point by point with you.
Since you live in my area of the country, I do so hope you will knock on my door.

 

[At_His_Feet]

Tommy - I’m sorry I’m not able to post as much as I’d like right now; my access to a computer is kind of limited, so please take that in to account.

1914 is a big deal, Tommy. They base everything else on it. I know you’ve been looking at their commentary on Revelation. Well, if that date (1914) is wrong, then that book is wrong, too. They’ve predicted a lot of dates over the years. Why don’t they talk about all the others?

They base it on the “tree” dream in Daniel ch. 4. But there’s nothing in that chapter that says that the dream is to be taken to try to predict a date for the end of the world. It’s a prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar.

I wasn’t bashing anyone. They have severely criticized the Catholic Church and and all other Christians for over 100 years, calling them “whore” and a lot of other things. They have said that if you’re not one of them, you’ll be destroyed at Armageddon. So - isn’t it reasonable that people would examine them very closely? What’s good for the goose is good fo the gander, isn’t it? Still, I’m not bashing the people, and I’m not interested in bashing people. But, to discuss beliefs, yes. That should be expected.

What the previous poster said is right. We’d all be glad to discuss beleifs here, one by one. For example, you assert that Jesus is Michael the archangel. We’d all be glad to discuss that one, for example. But you kind of mention it in passing.

Hope to see more of you…
webshowplace.com/question/index.html

 

[tommy1234]

Thanks for the last couple of posts. Let me try just a few questions. Is Mary, the Mother of God or the Mother of Jesus? I thought God was the Alpha and the Omega.

I belonged to the largest church in Contra Costa County with 3,000 members and was a senior member of their finance council. Therefore, in addition to my non-practicing family and friends I saw a ton of non-practicing Catholics. So why are members not encouraged to bring their Bibles to church so they can follow along with the first and second reading and the Gospel?

Is just two reading and the Gospel feeding the members with enough spiritually so they open the Bible later? What I have gained over the last several years is a knowledge of every book in the Bible. After 40 years, yes, 40 years as a Catholic I had to refer to the Index quite a bit because the catholic Church did not make it a practice of bring the Bible and I was told by the Pastor that if I wanted to learn the Bible I would have to join a special Bible Study that only a small group participated in, leaving the bulk of the members fairly clueless about what is in each and every chapter.

Have a great day! I am logged into this program through a laptop and a cell and had to rewrite this after loosing the data, thats a bugger when that happens. take care, tommy

 

[At_His_Feet]

** Is Mary, the Mother of God or the Mother of Jesus?

**Ask Thomas.
**John 20:28 ** Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

I can’t do any better than the Apostle Thomas. I certainly don’t know any more than he did. But sadly, some would take those words out of Thomas’ mouth, and say that he didn’t mean what he was saying.

I thought God was the Alpha and the Omega.

Compare Rev 1:8, Rev 1:17, Rev 21:6, and Rev 22:12-13

 

[tommy1234]

I know, think about this. It was “oh my Lord and oh my God”. Sort of like if we were saying “oh my God” referring to the God in heaven when he discovered that Jesus came back. When we are shocked by something we say “Oh my God”. Even Jesus said many times that God is superior to him. They are not the same as Jesus prayed to his Father.

I wanted to say sorry to the one brother that I accidently called a sister, this is not always easy to identify on the Internet.

About disfellowshiping, I am ok with it. If these preists who molested young boys were disfellowshipped it would not be a one billion dollar problem. Thats right one billion dollars and disfellowshipping would have taken care of a lot of that load.
This keeps your congregation clean and if you repent you can back. I like a clean congregation and like to feel I can trust the people around my eight year old son.

I also read from one of you nice people that you attend church every week. Isn’t it more about attending church once a week. How many of you can say you have gone through every line in the entire Bible. I spent six months doing this and it was an enlightening experience. Peace, tommy

 

[allhers]

tommy1234:

Thanks for the last couple of posts. Let me try just a few questions. Is Mary, the Mother of God or the Mother of Jesus? I thought God was the Alpha and the Omega…

Tommy, Jesus is God the Son, the 2nd Person of the Blessed Trinity, God in the flesh…For God so loved the world that He sent His only BEGOTTEN Son…in the fullness of time…so therefore the Blessed Mother is the Mother of God, by the way, Jesus isn’t the ArchAngel Michael. God created the angels, they are His created Creatures, not HIM.

then you said:…I belonged to the largest church in Contra Costa County with 3,000 members and was a senior member of their finance council. Therefore, in addition to my non-practicing family and friends I saw a ton of non-practicing Catholics. So why are members not encouraged to bring their Bibles to church so they can follow along with the first and second reading and the Gospel?..

…now Tommy, if you were ever really a praticing Catholic you would know that the readings are all in the Missal, why do we need to bring our Holy Bible to Mass when they are kind enough to have printed them right there already for us. (By the way, I don’t think anyone would mind if you wanted to bring your own.)…

then you said…Is just two reading and the Gospel feeding the members with enough spiritually so they open the Bible later? …

YES and we get the correct interpretation too, not just whatever we felt like thinking about it at the time…plus you can read it where ever and whenever you want.

then you said…What I have gained over the last several years is a knowledge of every book in the Bible…

Me too after being a Catholic since I was two weeks old, imagine that, I think that in the first three years of my life I heard the entire Bible and that has been repeated ever since. Plus I was free to read it anytime I wanted to at home. We had one, can you imagine??

then you said… After 40 years, yes, 40 years as a Catholic I had to refer to the Index quite a bit because the catholic Church did not make it a practice of bring the Bible…

see above, (it was right there in the Missal right in front of you all along), and I have been to Catholic Church’s all over the world, and it was there. What did you think those readings and Gospel you were hearing were from anyway?? If you really went then you would have heard what the Priest said after the readings and the Proclamation of the Gospel…

then you said… and I was told by the Pastor that if I wanted to learn the Bible I would have to join a special Bible Study that only a small group participated in, leaving the bulk of the members fairly clueless about what is in each and every chapter…

ever hear of free will? they all could have asked for a Bible Study group. I can’t imagine that your Pastor didn’t ever say, “Hey Tommy, why don’t you come to daily Mass you’ll be able to hear it and read it there?”

then you said…Have a great day! I am logged into this program through a laptop and a cell and had to rewrite this after loosing the data, thats a bugger when that happens. take care, tommy

-you have a good day too. try to read what the people suggested to you above to do and try to stick to ONE thing at a time and we won’t have to keep doing this.

 

[juno24]

tommy1234:

I belonged to the largest church in Contra Costa County with 3,000 members and was a senior member of their finance council.

And you are surprised that the focus of this committee was on money issues???

From a previous post

However I did see from an insiders veiw on a big Catholic committee the focus was on money…

So why are members not encouraged to bring their Bibles to church so they can follow along with the first and second reading and the Gospel?

Because we can follow along quite well in the missal, or missalette (those are the Mass books in the pews). We are certainly free and welcome to bring a Bible if we wish, but the day’s readings and Psalm are right there in the missal.

Is just two reading and the Gospel feeding the members with enough spiritually so they open the Bible later?

Yes, for many of it is. However, even if a faithful Catholic were never to open a Bible, he would still have heard the entirety of it several times over in his lifetime just by going to Mass every week.

What I have gained over the last several years is a knowledge of every book in the Bible. After 40 years, yes, 40 years as a Catholic I had to refer to the Index quite a bit…

I’m glad you have been able to memorize chapter and verse; that’s one of the things that the JW’s are great at-- memorizing verses that support their doctrines.

because the catholic Church did not make it a practice of bring the Bible and I was told by the Pastor that if I wanted to learn the Bible I would have to join a special Bible Study that only a small group participated in, leaving the bulk of the members fairly clueless about what is in each and every chapter.

And Father was right-- Mass is not a Bible study. If you want to study the Bible, you must join a Bible Study. How anyone can attend Mass every week (or even more often) and still be clueless of what is in the Bible is beyond me, though. If you want an indepth analysis of the Bible, you have to join a Bible Study group-- it makes sense to me.

Have a great day! I am logged into this program through a laptop and a cell and had to rewrite this after loosing the data, thats a bugger when that happens. take care, tommy

You have a great day, too! Dontcha just hate it when you write something on a computer and in a blink, it is gone!

 

[allhers]

Tommy, ever hear of the Commandments, not to take the Lord’s name in vain??

and did you see this?? one of the above posters was kind enough to give you this link and everything…

…Looks to me as though every responder has attempted an address. You lumped quite a bit into your posts. Pick one topic and the folks here will be glad to discuss it. Try not to make umteen points in one post.
You are showing signs of hopeing to be “persecuted” here.
Take the time to go to www.catholicxjw.com
Having once been a jw, Jeff will be glad to discuss things point by point with you…

have a good day

 

[Genesis315]

juno24:

And Father was right-- Mass is not a Bible study. If you want to study the Bible, you must join a Bible Study. How anyone can attend Mass every week (or even more often) and still be clueless of what is in the Bible is beyond me, though. If you want an indepth analysis of the Bible, you have to join a Bible Study group-- it makes sense to me.

Actually, the whole Bible is read over a period of three years at Mass, so Mass is kind of a Bible study too.

 

[juno24]

Genesis315:

Actually, the whole Bible is read over a period of three years at Mass, so Mass is kind of a Bible study too.

Of course, you are correct in that. I stated earlier in that post that someone who attends Mass weekly will hear the whole Bible many times over in the course of a lifetime. I don’t see how anyone who attends Mass weekly (at least) can come away saying they’ve never known the Bible.

 

[tommy1234]

OK, let me ask an honest question. I know in Europe the answer might be yes, but here in the States, have you really read the entire Bible over a three year period?

What I hear is that the entire Bible is being read from the Altar and find that hard to believe. 52 weeks to a year times 3 years means that the priest has read the Bible to you in 150 times 2 readings per week. It doesn’t mathmaticalyy equate.

Plus, the Bible needs to be read by your own eyes, not from the Altar from the priest. The missalette is usually left at the church. By taking the Bible with you, you makes notes and open it up later and reflect upon what was being discusses.

I appreciate your opinions and expression of human love and kindness. I am no rookie to the Bible, I have gone through it twice in the last year and pick more stuff up every time I open it up. I read from 6 translations and like the New Jerusalem Bible the best because it seperates Yahwehs name from Jesus’ name and doesn’t confuse the two. I even picked up the 64 CD’s on the NIV translation and have it going continually in the car. I discern from these non-JW readings and this is what I wasn’t getting at the Catholic church that has fed me spiritually.

We used to live in this materialistic world with a stack of toys. Now we have a stack of Bibles at home and my eight year old is a wiz at flipping through the books of the Bible. We were not getting this at the Catholic Church.

At the Sunday mass we would get two readings, the Gospel and the same prayers that we have heard read over and over where it kind of sounded like hearing Mary had a Little Lamp over and over.

I remember as a child in Catholic School at church saying Father forgive me for I have sin and then having to go through that same routine of repeating about 10 Lords Prayers and Hail Mary’s over and over. It wasn’t until joining my new faith that I learned the Lords prayer is a quote from Matthew and God wanted us to start with the Lords prayer and then just talking to him, nice and easy through Jesus. That also worked the best for gaining spiritual enlightment before I go to bed and doing it again when I awoke in a semi-conscience state in the middle of the night, which was different then how I was trained in my 8 years in Catholic School. Blessings, tommy

 

[Andrew_11]

tommy1234:

What I hear is that the entire Bible is being read from the Altar and find that hard to believe. 52 weeks to a year times 3 years means that the priest has read the Bible to you in 150 times 2 readings per week. It doesn’t mathmaticalyy equate.

There are 3 readings at mass. 2 readings and the gospel. That is 156 more readings than if it were only 2 a week.

tommy1234:

Plus, the Bible needs to be read by your own eyes, not from the Altar from the priest.

You should read the Bible on your own, but you need guidence. If everyone interpurted the Bible without any guidence from an authorative source their would be 6 billion different denominations of Christianity. There can be only ONE correct interpurtation of the Bible. But what authority do you claim your interputation is correct?

tommy1234:

Now we have a stack of Bibles at home and my eight year old is a wiz at flipping through the books of the Bible. We were not getting this at the Catholic Church.

Why weren’t you getting it through the Church? You should enroll them in CCD and educate your children about Catholocism. The porpuse of mass is not to educate but to worship. That is somthing that most people don’t understand anymore.

tommy1234:

It wasn’t until joining my new faith that I learned the Lords prayer is a quote from Matthew and God wanted us to start with the Lords prayer and then just talking to him, nice and easy through Jesus. That also worked the best for gaining spiritual enlightment before I go to bed and doing it again when I awoke in a semi-conscience state in the middle of the night, which was different then how I was trained in my 8 years in Catholic School. Blessings, tommy

You can just talk to him and be Catholic, I do it all the time. You can also meditate and say the Chaplet of the DM and the rosary and all types of beutiful prayers. Don’t blame the Catholic Church for not knowing the Lord’s Prayer was in Mathew. You might have gone to a bad Catholic school, but that didn’t mean you weren’t capable of reading the bible when you were Catholic.

 

[juno24]

tommy1234:

OK, let me ask an honest question. I know in Europe the answer might be yes, but here in the States, have you really read the entire Bible over a three year period?
What I hear is that the entire Bible is being read from the Altar and find that hard to believe. 52 weeks to a year times 3 years means that the priest has read the Bible to you in 150 times 2 readings per week. It doesn’t mathmaticalyy equate.

Yes, it is actually done. See the info in this link to see exactly how it is done. BTW, there are 4 readings, not 2: an OT reading, a Psalm, an Epistle and the Gospel reading.

Plus, the Bible needs to be read by your own eyes, not from the Altar from the priest.

Says who?

The missalette is usually left at the church. By taking the Bible with you, you makes notes and open it up later and reflect upon what was being discusses.

Mass is not the time or place to take notes-- it is the time and place for worship. As I said before, you are free to bring your Bible to Mass if you like, but if you are looking for an in-depth Bible study, where you can discuss what was said in Mass, or take notes on specific books or passages, you really do need to join a Bible Study group.

 

[tommy1234]

Judy your great! But let me try this one, the priest opens the Bible and reads Matt:9 “Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the Heavenly one”. Hmmm, I don’t remember hearing that one read from the Altar?

If you only have the Bible read to you, it is not possible to remember the Chapter and verse number and refer to it later. Plus, we do not as humans absorb material that is being read to us versus reading it ourselves. Plus, by researching the material your mind works on what you are taking in both awake and asleep. Plus it becomes addicting reading it. Plus, there is something strange that happens when you read it yourself when you “happen” to stumble across the thing you are trying to figure out in some strange way. Or, you are plying the CDs of the Bible in your car and your struggle of the day is answered for you some how. Happened to me ALOT! Lots of reasons to read it yourself.

Two other things mentioned on the Finance Committee was supposed to be about money. We drained our poor members to try and build a school. Collected 3 million dollars from them. The school never happen five years later, no plans on finishing it and the Parish kept the cash. Money went farther then the committee. We discussed strategies to pick up more members, not to feed to community spiritually, but to gain revenue. I did see it from the inside guys.

Last worship was brought up, We worship in group prayer and song.

I still can’t say only one religion is right, but the spiritual blessings in our household are much more intenst then they were three years ago. Every person has their own beliefs in what works for them and as this post was an essay about Revelations I do believe we will have a chance in the afterlife to drop our following of men and will be given the opportunity to show that we can give a 100% devotion to God in the afterlife regardless of what sect we follow and therefore I am not saying Catholics are all wrong (the members) but seriously think about what the beast, the wild beast and babylon the great is telling us in the last chapter of the Bible.

Got to go be with family and thanks for readying my heck of long stuff. Peace to you all! tommy

 

[Genesis315]

juno24:

Of course, you are correct in that. I stated earlier in that post that someone who attends Mass weekly will hear the whole Bible many times over in the course of a lifetime. I don’t see how anyone who attends Mass weekly (at least) can come away saying they’ve never known the Bible.

oops, my bad, I read too fast, sorry for the repeat

 

[Genesis315]

tommy1234:

Judy your great! But let me try this one, the priest opens the Bible and reads Matt:9 “Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the Heavenly one”.

Bwahahahahaha . Oh man, you’re sooooo original It is read from the altar (albeit once every three years). It also says to not call any man teacher. Uh oh, everyone who went to school is going to Hell .

Check this out big guy:
catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp