Revelations...are we ready...

[wcknight]

The New Heaven, New Earth and the 144000 elite rulers are clearly JW beliefs, we have no teachings on this topic. I think Protestants believe the 144000 refers to folks who will teach or evangelize as super evangelists during the end times.

We don’t really care who or how Heaven is run, We just know God will be there and that is enough for us. No one aspires to be among the so called 144000, and it makes no sense that God would arbitrarily choose 144000 folks to run His kingdom, why 144000 and not 144001 or why not 143,999.

I don’t quite understand the 10 horn, 7 head interpretation that you’ve mentioned. When I read Revelations, I didn’t get a sense that it would be one nation of evil following up upon another. And I think most Protestant end times folks believe it will be some sort of alliance of 10 countries as opposed to a succession of nations.

Catholics are not that caught up with the end times as other groups. We are taught to be ready at any time as death is a possibilty at any moment. If the antiChrist and beast of revelation should start to emerge I don’t think it will be as subtle as JW makes it out to be.

Personally I think the JW interpretation is a bit too contrived. But I don’t know enough about your beliefs to form a real opinion.

We do not believe Jesus was created, as He Is God, He always existed. He took on a human form and became one of us, BUT He existed long before His birth.

 

[wcknight]

tommy4321:

.

Could you imagine when Jesus was alive speaking in one of the temples if he came out with the name of God that was known at that time and said, “I am Yahweh” and watched the people melt in their chairs in front of his devine face in human glory. It would not have happened.

That is why I have said that it is really not a mystery, God is God and Jesus is His son who acts in agreement with everything about God, but are seperate and distinct which I think I have heard some acknowledge this and others say Jesus is God.

BUT the thing is Jesus did say that, and that is why the Jews hated Him and called Him a blasphemer. Jesus claimed to be God. And anyone here that disputes that, is NOT Catholic. ALL Catholics believe that Jesus is God. There is no equivocation there.

Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. They are one and the same God. They are inseparable, one entity. They are not distinct as you put it.

 

[WBB]

wcknight:

Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. They are one and the same God. They are inseparable, one entity. They are not distinct as you put it.

I am not sure what you mean by this. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are inseparable, yes, but they are also distinct persons. The Father is not the Son and neither the Father nor the Son are the Holy Spirit.

 

[At_His_Feet]

There is only one hope set out in the New Testament:
**Ephesians 4:4 ** There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling

It is a heavenly hope:
Colossians 3:2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

**The “Great Crowd” stands before the throne of God: **
Rev 7:9,15-a great multitude…standing before the throne…they are before the throne of God

What does it mean to stand before the throne of God?
**
Angels are there:
Rev 7:11**-And all the angels were standing around the throne and [around] the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God

**144,000 are there: **
Rev 14:1,3-one hundred and forty-four thousand…they sang a new song before the throne

 

[tommy4321]

This is the point I am trying to demonstrate, the two differing Catholic views, which one is it???

 

[scylla]

Tommy there is not two different views in Catholicism there is just one faith.

What happened in the thread was WCKnight was disagreeing with your view of there not being a Trinity. WBB wanted some clarification to make sure WCKnight was describing the Trinity properly as I see it.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[WBB]

tommy4321:

This is the point I am trying to demonstrate, the two differing Catholic views, which one is it???

There is only one Catholic view. Here is what *The Catechism of the Catholic Church *says:

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity."83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father,” “Son,” “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

One God in three distinct persons in a communion of love.

 

[tommy4321]

scylla:

Tommy there is not two different views in Catholicism there is just one faith.

What happened in the thread was WCKnight was disagreeing with your view of there not being a Trinity. WBB wanted some clarification to make sure WCKnight was describing the Trinity properly as I see it.

God Bless
Scylla
Quote:
Originally Posted by wcknight
Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. They are one and the same God. They are inseparable, one entity. They are not distinct as you put it.

Originally Posted by WBB
I am not sure what you mean by this. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are inseparable, yes, but they are also distinct persons. The Father is not the Son and neither the Father nor the Son are the Holy Spirit.

Hi Scylla: I would suggest reading both WCKnight and WBB’s posts. WCKnight says “They are not distinct as you put it”. WBB’s post says; “The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are inseperable buy they are also distinct persons”.

One says they are “not” distinct and one says they “are” distinct. This also came up a few times earlier on this thread. Which one, “not” or “are” distinct? It also appeared that WBB had quoted MCKnight in his opposing view. God Bless you too and enjoy your weekend, tommy

 

[WBB]

tommy4321:

Hi Scylla: I would suggest reading both WCKnight and WBB’s posts. WCKnight says “They are not distinct as you put it”. WBB’s post says; “The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are inseperable buy they are also distinct persons”.

One says they are “not” distinct and one says they “are” distinct. This also came up a few times earlier on this thread. Which one, “not” or “are” distinct? It also appeared that WBB had quoted MCKnight in his opposing view. God Bless you too and enjoy your weekend, tommy

Tommy,

Read my post (#144) above. In paragraph 254 of The Catechism of the Catholic Church, the first sentence says, "The divine persons are really distinct from one another." It can’t be written any more plainly than that.

Blessings!

Brian

 

[tommy4321]

WBB:

Tommy,

Read my post (#144) above. In paragraph 254 of The Catechism of the Catholic Church, the first sentence says, "The divine persons are really distinct from one another." It can’t be written any more plainly than that.

Blessings!

Brian

Brian:

I want to say that I think you have done an outstanding job of stating of what I believe true practicing Catholics believe that the Trinity is that the two are distinct and in union in every way. Even though my view is somewhat different I think you make an astute compelliing arguement of your view. I would be interest to see what MCKight thinks about the two being distinct?

I just think there are two views among Catholics (one distinct one not distinct). You have cited the distinct one well. Even though I don’t believe in the “one” concept, I think your view does support that of practicing Catholics. I don’t recall reading about the Holy Spirit being a “person” and read many refernces to both God and Jesus as a being. It seems to me that the Holy Spirit is the active force of God in my opinion. Sorry this came back to a Trinity discussion, but I guess that it is where it was going. take care, tom

 

[tommy4321]

wcknight:

The New Heaven, New Earth and the 144000 elite rulers are clearly JW beliefs, we have no teachings on this topic. I think Protestants believe the 144000 refers to folks who will teach or evangelize as super evangelists during the end times.

We don’t really care who or how Heaven is run, We just know God will be there and that is enough for us. No one aspires to be among the so called 144000, and it makes no sense that God would arbitrarily choose 144000 folks to run His kingdom, why 144000 and not 144001 or why not 143,999.

I don’t quite understand the 10 horn, 7 head interpretation that you’ve mentioned. When I read Revelations, I didn’t get a sense that it would be one nation of evil following up upon another. And I think most Protestant end times folks believe it will be some sort of alliance of 10 countries as opposed to a succession of nations.

Catholics are not that caught up with the end times as other groups. We are taught to be ready at any time as death is a possibilty at any moment. If the antiChrist and beast of revelation should start to emerge I don’t think it will be as subtle as JW makes it out to be.

Personally I think the JW interpretation is a bit too contrived. But I don’t know enough about your beliefs to form a real opinion.

We do not believe Jesus was created, as He Is God, He always existed. He took on a human form and became one of us, BUT He existed long before His birth.

Exact numbers are important in the Bible. 12 tribes with 12,000 chosen holy ones equal 144,000. 12 represents the number of a jury to judge or rule. 666 is not perfect because it is just short of 7. 7 is the perfect number similar to how Jesus is perfect. 10 is another number used with Gods favor.

The Bible makes reference to the new heaven and new earth. It also discusses the other flock. I would pull the quote but have some guest over and don’t have time right now. But, what do you think of the refernces to the other flock of those that are chosen ones. What does this mean the other flock of chosen ones? Please let me know if this is not clear and I will look up the specific scriptures later. I think it is in John and Luke. Take care, tommyy

 

[At_His_Feet]

The wording in Rev ch 7 says that the 144,000 are taken **out of **each tribe of Israel. 12,000 out of this tribe, 12,000 out of that tribe, etc. The wording suggests that there is more left in each tribe. It does not say, for example, “This tribe **is **12,000, that tribe **is **12,000”. Doesn’t that suggest that, whatever “Israel” is, (whether spiritual or physical), there is more in it than just 144,000?

**“Little Flock” and “Other Sheep” **The standard interpretation of this (both Protestant and Catholic, as I understand it) is as below (I’m giving the text from John 10:16 where Jesus mentions the “other sheep” and also a backup scripture from Ephesians) :

When the “Other Sheep” (believers from among the gentiles)…
**
John 10:16** I have other sheep, which are not of this fold…

(Ephesians 2:13 …you [gentile believers] who formerly were far off …)

**
…become believers…**
**
John 10:16** …I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice…

(Ephesians 2:13 …have been brought near by the blood of Christ…)

**
…they are united in “one flock” with the “Little Flock” (believers from among fleshly Israel) **
**
John 10:16** …and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

(Ephesians 2:14 For He…made both groups [Jewish and gentile believers] into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall …)

I’m glad to see you’re still on the forum and I hope you have a good weekend. AHF

 

[tommy4321]

kindest regards at At His Feet. Came across one quote this morning and wanted to see the Catholic view. Mark 10:18 “Jesus said to him, Why do you call me good?” “No is good, but God alone”. (taken from the New Jerusalme Bible). What do you make of this verse?

 

[WBB]

tommy4321:

kindest regards at At His Feet. Came across one quote this morning and wanted to see the Catholic view. Mark 10:18 “Jesus said to him, Why do you call me good?” “No is good, but God alone”. (taken from the New Jerusalme Bible). What do you make of this verse?

Ah, one of my favorites! But let’s not take that one verse out of the context of the conversation that Jesus is having with the man who owned many possessions. There is an entire conversation there, and you have removed one part, which when read outside of the context of the conversation it appears to mean something completely different than what Jesus intended. In its entirety, this is the coversation:

As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.’” He replied and said to him, “Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth.” Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, “You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to (the) poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

Here is what the conversation entails: man runs up and calls Jesus “good”. At this point Jesus looks at him (and I can just see the twinkle in his eye) and says, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” In other words, Jesus is asking the man, “Are you fully aware of what you are saying when you call me ‘good’? Are you ready to accept that I am God?” Then he proceeds to tell the man to follow the commandments and sell everything and what? Follow God? No, to “follow me.” Is this not what God asks of us all? To give up everything and to follow Him? In his own subtle way, when Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone”, he is affirming his oneness with God, not denying that he is God.

 

[tommy4321]

WBB:

Ah, one of my favorites! But let’s not take that one verse out of the context of the conversation that Jesus is having with the man who owned many possessions. There is an entire conversation there, and you have removed one part, which when read outside of the context of the conversation it appears to mean something completely different than what Jesus intended. In its entirety, this is the coversation:

Here is what the conversation entails: man runs up and calls Jesus “good”. At this point Jesus looks at him (and I can just see the twinkle in his eye) and says, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” In other words, Jesus is asking the man, “Are you fully aware of what you are saying when you call me ‘good’? Are you ready to accept that I am God?” Then he proceeds to tell the man to follow the commandments and sell everything and what? Follow God? No, to “follow me.” Is this not what God asks of us all? To give up everything and to follow Him? In his own subtle way, when Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone”, he is affirming his oneness with God, not denying that he is God.

I like ready your resonses. To me Mark 10:18 is a quote from Jesus saying to give glory to Jesus’ Father.

 

[At_His_Feet]

Hi Tommy I hope all is well.
I agree with what WBB said about Mark 10:18. Jesus is saying, in effect to the man “Think about what you’re saying. You’re calling me ‘good’. Do you realize that only God is good?” He is trying to provoke the man into further thinking, to think about who Jesus really is. Jesus does not deny being “good”; in other places (sorry don’t have the scripture in front of me right now, maybe someone else will provide it) Jesus calls Himself “the Good Shepherd”. Since in Mark 10:18 He says that “only God is good”, some understand that Jesus calling Himself the “Good Shepherd” is a case of Him admitting His own Deity. Best wishes AHF

 

[tommy4321]

At His Feet:

Hi Tommy I hope all is well.
I agree with what WBB said about Mark 10:18. Jesus is saying, in effect to the man “Think about what you’re saying. You’re calling me ‘good’. Do you realize that only God is good?” He is trying to provoke the man into further thinking, to think about who Jesus really is. Jesus does not deny being “good”; in other places (sorry don’t have the scripture in front of me right now, maybe someone else will provide it) Jesus calls Himself “the Good Shepherd”. Since in Mark 10:18 He says that “only God is good”, some understand that Jesus calling Himself the “Good Shepherd” is a case of Him admitting His own Deity. Best wishes AHF

OK, here is my point, does Jesus want worship as being God? I think he has passed that on to his Father?

 

[WBB]

tommy4321:

I like ready your resonses. To me Mark 10:18 is a quote from Jesus saying to give glory to Jesus’ Father.

Really? He mentions nothing in that passage about giving Glory to the Father, even though you are correct. Jesus indeed wants us to give glory to the Father. However, in the context of the entire passage, Jesus is affirming his oneness with God by saying only God is good AND by saying, “follow ME.”

 

[WBB]

tommy4321:

OK, here is my point, does Jesus want worship as being God? I think he has passed that on to his Father?

It is not a question of whether Jesus *wants *it or not. Since Jesus is God then worship is due Him. It is then up to each person to make a commitment to accept Jesus as God or not.

 

[tommy4321]

WBB:

It is not a question of whether Jesus *wants *it or not. Since Jesus is God then worship is due Him. It is then up to each person to make a commitment to accept Jesus as God or not.

Yeah, but he questions is does Jesus, the distinct person want the worship due his Father? or, is he OK with it?