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tommy4321
Guest
Sorry about the spelling, let me restate this one. Does Jesus as the distinct person want the worship due his Father???
- Status
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WBB
Guest
Oh. I see what you are asking. We believe that the will of the Father is one and the same as the will of the Son. Jesus does not have a separate will from His Father. They are completely united. So the answer is yes, He is ok with it.
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tommy4321
Guest
Hi Brian:
I have been thinking about your response all weekend but have had my Mother In Law in town all weekend. She’s Catholic, we used to go to church together.
I really needed to respond to this because it is the core of my Christian beliefs:
Here is why I think Jesus wants praise to his Father:
- Many on this post have acknowledged they are distinct (not all).
- Yahweh Jehovah God created us and is a jealous God and Jesus never sought after the praise of his Father.
- It has been slanderous that Yahweh Jehovah Gods name was removed from the original Hebrew writings because of a first century superstition and oly put back into a Catholic Bible, The New Jerusalem Bible in 1990.
- Because of this superstition that I feel Satan is behind to take glory away for Jesus’ Father, most churches still won’t use Yahwehs name and give Him the glory due to him.
- Psalms 148:13 (New Jerusalm Bible) says “Let them praise the name of Yahweh, for his name alone is sublime, his splendour transends earth and heaven”.
- We must give credit to Yahweh Jehovah God and magnify His name.
- By praising His name shows a clear sign against Satan and support truth.
- Isaiah 45:5 “I am Yahweh, and there is no other, there is no God except me”.
- Relelation 4:11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honour and power, for you made the whole univerese; by your will, when it did not exist, it was creasted”.
B
boppysbud
Guest
Tommy, could you please explain the huge emphasis that JWs place on names? Either “jehovah” (who does not exist, that is a made up nonsense word) or Jaweh?
Do JWs beleive in the existence of other Gods or that there are Gods they have to use the name “jehovah” or Jaweh to differentiate their God from?
In the Old Testament the ancients believed that if one knew the name of a God (any God) that all they had to do was to call upon that God by name and they had that God at their back and call, the God had to obey their will.
We see this very clearly in the story of God’s revealing himself in the form of a burning bush to Moses. Moses demands to know God’s personal name several times, and all God tells him is “I am who I am”. God does not reveal a personal name to Moses, or tell Moses “I am Jehovah or Yahweh, you must use that name only and every time that you address me”, God does the exact opposite.
I see the “name worship” used by the JWs and others like those who insist that Jesus must be called “Yeshua” and no other name as a continuation of this ancient superstition. There is but one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who needs no name. And we can’t control God by calling him by a specific name.
Do JWs beleive in the existence of other Gods or that there are Gods they have to use the name “jehovah” or Jaweh to differentiate their God from?
In the Old Testament the ancients believed that if one knew the name of a God (any God) that all they had to do was to call upon that God by name and they had that God at their back and call, the God had to obey their will.
We see this very clearly in the story of God’s revealing himself in the form of a burning bush to Moses. Moses demands to know God’s personal name several times, and all God tells him is “I am who I am”. God does not reveal a personal name to Moses, or tell Moses “I am Jehovah or Yahweh, you must use that name only and every time that you address me”, God does the exact opposite.
I see the “name worship” used by the JWs and others like those who insist that Jesus must be called “Yeshua” and no other name as a continuation of this ancient superstition. There is but one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who needs no name. And we can’t control God by calling him by a specific name.
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WBB
Guest
In Catholic thought, there is one main flaw in your thinking. Jesus is one with the Father, so to praise the Father is to praise Jesus, is to praise the Holy Spirit, etc, etc. Yahweh is a jealous God? The way that you are looking at it is not the way Catholics do. Jesus is not a separate God. He is one in being with the Father. The intimate relationship that exists in the Blessed Trinity is one of complete love. No holding back. So, when you say that Yahweh is a jealous God and that He would be offended if we offer praise to Jesus, Catholics will look at you with a puzzled look because that makes no sense to us simply because of the fact that Jesus = Yahweh. (which, by the way, he says in John’s Gospel. Recall Yahweh is a Hebrew term for “I am” or “I am He”. Read John Chapter 8…and yes, use the New Jerusalem Bible. I will mention but one verse, verse 24: “I have told you already: You will die in your sins. Yes, if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” If you have the copy of the New Jerusalem Bible that I have, there is a footnote (marked g) which will explain the statement as understood by the Catholic Church. But read the entire chapter.)
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tommy4321
Guest
There is one true God and yes God did reveal himself to Moses by name. In the Bible, the true God is identifed by such things as God Almighty, the Most High, Grand Creator, Grand Instructor and Sovereign Lord. Exodus 6:3 in the King James version (a Catholic Bible), God says I am “Jehovah” this is my name.
The name YHWH appears in church entrances in Europe and translates into 37 different languages. The name is the One true God, the Father of Jesus who is his Son, two “distinct” persons. The ancients had several Gods especially in Greece and Egypt. Yahweh, the Father of Jesus, is the one true God also known as the God of Isreal.
Yahweh appears 7,000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures alone. Jehovah revealed his purpose to deliver the Isrealites from slavery and that is how his name was given to us. Jehovah God delivered 10 plagues to the Egyptians to reveal his power and glory.
The main difference I see between the two faiths is that in my opinion, Yahweh’s name has been lost or concealed and the Trinity has created some confusion that I have demonstrated here. Sone think the God and Jesus are the same and some think they are distinct.There is not any worship of just a name, just what is said in the Bible. This comes out of the Bible and what other meaning can it have rather than giving our Creator praise. Psalms 148:13 (New Jerusalm Bible) says “Let them praise the name of Yahweh, for his name alone is sublime, his splendour transends earth and heaven”.
Read all of Plams 118 where it says to give thanks to “Yahweh” coming from a Catholic Bible and sing praises to his name as a merciful please to love your God the Grand Creator. Jesus had a Father and is distinct and we must go through Jesus to get to his Father. There are four basic qualities of God, power, wisdom, justice and love.
Worlds religions has done away with the knowledge of God by his name. You may recall that Jesus said, This means everlasting life, their taking in the knowledge of you, the only true God, and the one you sent forth, Jesus Christ". John 17:3
Carefully concealed in Jesus are all the treausres of wisdom and knowledge" 2Corinthians 1:20. So Jesus is the very key to the knowledge of God. Jesus is the “Annointed One”, he would finish off sin and it was foretold the Messiah would come because of the love God had for mankind Dan 9:24-26, Psalms 72 1-20. Jesus came from the seed of Abraham, Isaac and David and when Gods Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary he was born the perfect man because his seed was not from Adam.
Yahweh Jehovah (Jehovah is merely an english translation and it is also translated into 36 other languages) gave Jesus the power to perform miracles. Notice his power did not come until age 30. Notice too that God gave this power to Moses and Elijah who raised a young girl from the dead. No doubt Jesus is the Messiah, Christ, Gods only Son, the ruler of Heaven but throughout the Bible we read to give praise to the name (not just the name but the ture God) and to sign praises to his name. Peace and Love, tommy
A
At_His_Feet
Guest
You said **OK, here is my point, does Jesus want worship as being God? I think he has passed that on to his Father?
John 5:23** So that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father
John 20:28 Thomas Answered and said to Him. “My Lord and my God.”
Hebrews 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Note: The Father commands the angels to worship Jesus. (Watch out, the NWT has got this verse changed around. Read it out of the NASB, RSV, NRSV, ASV, NKJV, NJB, or even out of one of the old “green” New World Translations, before they “revised” it.)
You said Yahweh appears 7,000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures alone.
You’ve got that right. All manuscript evidence shows (and keep in mind that the Near East and Mediterranean basin have been turned upside down looking for manuscripts of the Bible) that YHWH appears in the Hebrew Scriptures alone. ONLY in the Old Testament. (That’s the way that the 1901ASV, the JB, the NJB, Young’s, Rotherham’s have it) But the WT leaders have put it 237 times in the New Testament, with absolutely no support from the Greek manuscripts. You really need to look here:
tetragrammaton.org/
tetragrammaton.org/fse.htm
tetragrammaton.org/itmdnnwt.htm
Was God capable of making sure that YHWH would appear in the manuscripts of the NT, if He had wanted it to be? Was He capable of making sure that the pronunciation of YHWH would not be lost, if He had wanted it to be? Or did he have to wait nearly 2000 years until someone came along and “restored the Divine Name” to the NT? The emphasis in the NT is clearly on the name of Jesus.
This is nothing to be messing around with:
Exodus 20:7 “You shall not take the name of YHWH your God in vain, for YHWH will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.”
John 5:23** So that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father
John 20:28 Thomas Answered and said to Him. “My Lord and my God.”
Hebrews 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Note: The Father commands the angels to worship Jesus. (Watch out, the NWT has got this verse changed around. Read it out of the NASB, RSV, NRSV, ASV, NKJV, NJB, or even out of one of the old “green” New World Translations, before they “revised” it.)
You said Yahweh appears 7,000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures alone.
You’ve got that right. All manuscript evidence shows (and keep in mind that the Near East and Mediterranean basin have been turned upside down looking for manuscripts of the Bible) that YHWH appears in the Hebrew Scriptures alone. ONLY in the Old Testament. (That’s the way that the 1901ASV, the JB, the NJB, Young’s, Rotherham’s have it) But the WT leaders have put it 237 times in the New Testament, with absolutely no support from the Greek manuscripts. You really need to look here:
tetragrammaton.org/
tetragrammaton.org/fse.htm
tetragrammaton.org/itmdnnwt.htm
Was God capable of making sure that YHWH would appear in the manuscripts of the NT, if He had wanted it to be? Was He capable of making sure that the pronunciation of YHWH would not be lost, if He had wanted it to be? Or did he have to wait nearly 2000 years until someone came along and “restored the Divine Name” to the NT? The emphasis in the NT is clearly on the name of Jesus.
This is nothing to be messing around with:
Exodus 20:7 “You shall not take the name of YHWH your God in vain, for YHWH will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.”
T
tommy4321
Guest
At His Feet:
I agree with your quote on John 5:23 that we must “honor” the Son as we “honor” the Father. Note it does not say worship the Son as you would worship the Father. John 20:28, as stated earlier on the thread when Thomas did feel the wounds as the doubter he exclaimed “My Lord and my God”. Try and picture it like this, “My Lord” directed towards Jesus and knowing how he had doubted the resurrection he continued to say “and my God”. Similar to if we so shocked as we would say “my God” today referring to the God in Heaven. So picture it like this “My Lord” pointing to Jesus “and my God” pointing to his Father in heaven.
I believe in my opinion the apostles did recognize that Jesus had a Father in heaven who was distinct as many Catholics recognize that today. When I am shocked by something I do say as natural reaction “Oh my God”. All depending on who Jesus would be referring to in a conversation he would use the term Father when speaking with the apostles of if was speaking to a group he would say love Jehovah God with all your hearts. I would have to look up that scripture, but it does come out of the NWT and I know there would not be an agreement in this discussion with quotes out of the NWT so I have kept the discussion around the New Jerusalem Bible since I find this as common ground for a good debate with Catholics.
Let me restate a question, does the King James Version use the word Jehovah twice in that conservative Bible (See Exodus 6:3)? I have heard that this English translation from other posts here say it is a made up name. Then that would mean it is a made up name from the catholic King James version?
Lastly, the New Jerusalem Bible states in Exodus 20:7 “You shall not misuse the name of Yahweh your God, for Yahweh will not leave unpunished anyone who misuses his name”. This may be part of the reason that the Jews of the first century created the superstition not to use his name at all leading to todays confusion as to why some think the two are distinct and the other misinterpretation the two are not distinct. Yahweh’s name is simply being used as I am saying here to worship the true God as opposed to not worshipping the true God and by not using his name at all is a misuse of the true God’s name or it would not have been given to us telling us to sing praises to his name in Psalms.
Please keep in mind these are my views as a Bible Student learning how to worship the true God and it goes deeper then just using a name in how we direct worship to the true God.Blessings, tommy
Regards AHF, I like when I see your posts come up because you have stated your favorite Bible is the New Jerusalem Bible. The New Jerusalem Bible quotes Hebrews 1:6 as saying “And let all the angels of God pay him homage”. I am not too sure why your quote does not come from your favorite Bible here? There is a difference between worship and paying homage.
I agree with your quote on John 5:23 that we must “honor” the Son as we “honor” the Father. Note it does not say worship the Son as you would worship the Father. John 20:28, as stated earlier on the thread when Thomas did feel the wounds as the doubter he exclaimed “My Lord and my God”. Try and picture it like this, “My Lord” directed towards Jesus and knowing how he had doubted the resurrection he continued to say “and my God”. Similar to if we so shocked as we would say “my God” today referring to the God in Heaven. So picture it like this “My Lord” pointing to Jesus “and my God” pointing to his Father in heaven.
I believe in my opinion the apostles did recognize that Jesus had a Father in heaven who was distinct as many Catholics recognize that today. When I am shocked by something I do say as natural reaction “Oh my God”. All depending on who Jesus would be referring to in a conversation he would use the term Father when speaking with the apostles of if was speaking to a group he would say love Jehovah God with all your hearts. I would have to look up that scripture, but it does come out of the NWT and I know there would not be an agreement in this discussion with quotes out of the NWT so I have kept the discussion around the New Jerusalem Bible since I find this as common ground for a good debate with Catholics.
Let me restate a question, does the King James Version use the word Jehovah twice in that conservative Bible (See Exodus 6:3)? I have heard that this English translation from other posts here say it is a made up name. Then that would mean it is a made up name from the catholic King James version?
Lastly, the New Jerusalem Bible states in Exodus 20:7 “You shall not misuse the name of Yahweh your God, for Yahweh will not leave unpunished anyone who misuses his name”. This may be part of the reason that the Jews of the first century created the superstition not to use his name at all leading to todays confusion as to why some think the two are distinct and the other misinterpretation the two are not distinct. Yahweh’s name is simply being used as I am saying here to worship the true God as opposed to not worshipping the true God and by not using his name at all is a misuse of the true God’s name or it would not have been given to us telling us to sing praises to his name in Psalms.
Please keep in mind these are my views as a Bible Student learning how to worship the true God and it goes deeper then just using a name in how we direct worship to the true God.Blessings, tommy
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wcknight
Guest
BTW
The King James Version is strictly protestant NOT Catholic. It is missing several books and some verses are modified to reflect protestant theology.
There is no “confusion” here, the Trinity is clearly taught, there is only one God, there are three personages to that One God. It is a mystery but there is no confusion. All Catholics believe in a Triune God. The confusion is with JWs who do not recognize the Holy Spirit or Jesus as being divine and “one in being with the Father”.
The King James Version is strictly protestant NOT Catholic. It is missing several books and some verses are modified to reflect protestant theology.
There is no “confusion” here, the Trinity is clearly taught, there is only one God, there are three personages to that One God. It is a mystery but there is no confusion. All Catholics believe in a Triune God. The confusion is with JWs who do not recognize the Holy Spirit or Jesus as being divine and “one in being with the Father”.
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wcknight
Guest
Jesus chose to manifest His power at age 30 and started His public life at 30, BUT He was wise beyond his years long before that. He knew His Father’s mission even at age 12 when He first taught in the temple. Scriptures does not say exactly when He received power or if He had it from birth.
BUT it DOES say Jesus is the Word made flesh and the Word existed even before the World existed, Jesus existed even before Creation.
BUT it DOES say Jesus is the Word made flesh and the Word existed even before the World existed, Jesus existed even before Creation.
A
At_His_Feet
Guest
Tommy
You are wrong to say that the devout Jew Thomas used the phrase “Oh my God,” or something similar. That way of speaking does not appear in the Bible, certainly not from a devout person.
Of course the KJV uses Jehovah where you said it did.
When a “translation” puts something 237 times in the New Testament because they think it should be in there even though it is not in the Greek manuscripts that they claim to be working from, is that “translating”, or is that something else? The WT leaders have repeatedly stated, on one hand, that the manuscripts of the NT have come down to us in a reliable form, but on the other hand they claim that a forgery has taken place in 237 in the manuscripts of the New Testament. If you will take the time to read the downlaoadable books at the links I gave you, you will see how incongruous those statements really are. For example, the idea that the forgery would have taken place consistently, thoroughly, in all the diverse families of manuscripts that we now have, without leaving a trace behind, is not taken seriously by Biblical scholars.
And so, if the New Testament authors, deliberately chose not to put the Divine Name in the New Testament (as all archeaological and manuscript evidence shows), what does that mean for us? Are we at liberty to practice otherwise? The real question is - is our use of the Divine Name in accord with that of the early Christians, as evidenced in the New Testament, and the non-scriptural writings of the early Church (and don’t forget, if this “forgery” took place, it would have had to taken place also in the writings of the early Church Fathers).
When Jesus disciples asked Him “Lord teach us to pray” - what title of address did he tell his followers to use? And what does the WT teach regarding this? Are we at liberty to “go beyond what is written” and insist that the title that Jesus instructed his followers to use isn’t enough?
Lastly, I would ask you this - according to Acts 1:8 (I won’t quote it this time) who’s “Witnesses” are Christians to be?
You are wrong to say that the devout Jew Thomas used the phrase “Oh my God,” or something similar. That way of speaking does not appear in the Bible, certainly not from a devout person.
Of course the KJV uses Jehovah where you said it did.
When a “translation” puts something 237 times in the New Testament because they think it should be in there even though it is not in the Greek manuscripts that they claim to be working from, is that “translating”, or is that something else? The WT leaders have repeatedly stated, on one hand, that the manuscripts of the NT have come down to us in a reliable form, but on the other hand they claim that a forgery has taken place in 237 in the manuscripts of the New Testament. If you will take the time to read the downlaoadable books at the links I gave you, you will see how incongruous those statements really are. For example, the idea that the forgery would have taken place consistently, thoroughly, in all the diverse families of manuscripts that we now have, without leaving a trace behind, is not taken seriously by Biblical scholars.
And so, if the New Testament authors, deliberately chose not to put the Divine Name in the New Testament (as all archeaological and manuscript evidence shows), what does that mean for us? Are we at liberty to practice otherwise? The real question is - is our use of the Divine Name in accord with that of the early Christians, as evidenced in the New Testament, and the non-scriptural writings of the early Church (and don’t forget, if this “forgery” took place, it would have had to taken place also in the writings of the early Church Fathers).
When Jesus disciples asked Him “Lord teach us to pray” - what title of address did he tell his followers to use? And what does the WT teach regarding this? Are we at liberty to “go beyond what is written” and insist that the title that Jesus instructed his followers to use isn’t enough?
Lastly, I would ask you this - according to Acts 1:8 (I won’t quote it this time) who’s “Witnesses” are Christians to be?
T
tommy4321
Guest
OK, AYF, I read it, quite long and makes an interesting arguement so let me respond. First Thomas is not using “my God” in a negative way we do today. He is simply saying My Lord AND my God. My Lord a references to Jesus Christ who was resurrected and “My God” pointing to the heavens in amazement to Jesus’ Father.
As far as Mike in the example I don’t see how he could really be one of true Jehovah’s Wittnesses. He was in the military in which the Jehovah’s Wittness do not put faith in nation but in God knowing the world we live in today is ruled by Satan. Even Jesus said that he would have no part of the ruler of the world to come, which would include a group that is capable of commiting murder for their “nation” as our loyalty goes to God in trust that the better world, will be the one when Satan influences including war are driven out of the current system and we have a new system, similar to what was made available conditionally to Adam and Eve who violated the one thing God asked them not to do, eating from the fruit of the tree of knowedge and trying to become like God knowing the difference between good and evil.
Let me turn around what you gave me to read which I did, with a question. Since the name Yahweh God was reinseted in the NJB in 1990, why was it taken out or earlier additions and not in all additions? Try and answer this if you can. Was it right that it was put back in, perhaps an acknowledgement of a mistake. In other words, why would the Catholic faith change the way the devine name in the 1990 NJB? What changed to make that happen?
The Old Testament and the New Testament blend in harmony well together and complement each other. If you were Jewish you would believe in just the Old Testament. Some religions believe in just the New Testament. Christians believe in the Old Testament and New Testament as one Book even though it is a compilation of 66 books in total. Therefore, since it is one book, do we need to read them seperately when we read references to Jesus’ Father.
I will admit that your point is well taken from Matthew Chapter 6 in how we pray to Jesus. Jesus more often made reference to to God as his Father. But this being the case, since Jesus prayed to his Father, would that be the same as praying to himself?
If you notice in my pages of posts on this thread I usually refer to Jesus’ Father Yahweh Jehovah God as simply God. I have not gone overboard on the word Jehovah and have tried using the name Yahweh since I believe most Catholics will accept that Jesus’ Father revealed his name as YHWH (no vowels) to Moses in Exodus before changing the entire world with the ten plagues and making His name well know. I am not here to protect one religion and perhaps the name Jehovah could be overused by the Jehovah’s Wittnesses as I am not sure the answer here. I have noticed that even though this is the English translation of Yahweh, most people have a REAL hard time using the english translation which I feel is an act of satan to conceal His name. You have even admitted that it appears in Ex 6:3 in the King James Version and if you read some recent posts there are quite of few folks here that have said the name is made up which would invalidate the King James Version of the Bible?
Even though the readings you asked me to read make a strong arguement I can’t go along with in because of a few reasons. There is an obvious tone to discredit Wittnesses and I see them as a God loving group of true worshipers of God. Second, I know my personal real life experience and what has drawn my family closer to God by giving praise to God, through his Son as two seperate persons. My background includes 6 years attending Catholic School and 40 years following the Catholic Faith and serving on many volunteer functions with the Catholics. I like the members or I would not choose to hang around here with you guys. There are great people among the Catholic group and it is just my opinions on what has worked for my family to be drawn closer to God and may not work for all.
I don’t think there is one right religion and all the others are wrong, but I do find the time goes by real fast at the Kingdom Hall by continually opening our Bibles and examing scripures and found that hearing the same prayers repeated over and over, with all due respect to be quite boring. Honestly in my opinion I would always be waiting for mass to end and now in my opinion time flies by because I feel I am gaining knowlegde of the true God. Please keep in mind these are just my opinions. God Bless, tommy
As far as Mike in the example I don’t see how he could really be one of true Jehovah’s Wittnesses. He was in the military in which the Jehovah’s Wittness do not put faith in nation but in God knowing the world we live in today is ruled by Satan. Even Jesus said that he would have no part of the ruler of the world to come, which would include a group that is capable of commiting murder for their “nation” as our loyalty goes to God in trust that the better world, will be the one when Satan influences including war are driven out of the current system and we have a new system, similar to what was made available conditionally to Adam and Eve who violated the one thing God asked them not to do, eating from the fruit of the tree of knowedge and trying to become like God knowing the difference between good and evil.
Let me turn around what you gave me to read which I did, with a question. Since the name Yahweh God was reinseted in the NJB in 1990, why was it taken out or earlier additions and not in all additions? Try and answer this if you can. Was it right that it was put back in, perhaps an acknowledgement of a mistake. In other words, why would the Catholic faith change the way the devine name in the 1990 NJB? What changed to make that happen?
The Old Testament and the New Testament blend in harmony well together and complement each other. If you were Jewish you would believe in just the Old Testament. Some religions believe in just the New Testament. Christians believe in the Old Testament and New Testament as one Book even though it is a compilation of 66 books in total. Therefore, since it is one book, do we need to read them seperately when we read references to Jesus’ Father.
I will admit that your point is well taken from Matthew Chapter 6 in how we pray to Jesus. Jesus more often made reference to to God as his Father. But this being the case, since Jesus prayed to his Father, would that be the same as praying to himself?
If you notice in my pages of posts on this thread I usually refer to Jesus’ Father Yahweh Jehovah God as simply God. I have not gone overboard on the word Jehovah and have tried using the name Yahweh since I believe most Catholics will accept that Jesus’ Father revealed his name as YHWH (no vowels) to Moses in Exodus before changing the entire world with the ten plagues and making His name well know. I am not here to protect one religion and perhaps the name Jehovah could be overused by the Jehovah’s Wittnesses as I am not sure the answer here. I have noticed that even though this is the English translation of Yahweh, most people have a REAL hard time using the english translation which I feel is an act of satan to conceal His name. You have even admitted that it appears in Ex 6:3 in the King James Version and if you read some recent posts there are quite of few folks here that have said the name is made up which would invalidate the King James Version of the Bible?
Even though the readings you asked me to read make a strong arguement I can’t go along with in because of a few reasons. There is an obvious tone to discredit Wittnesses and I see them as a God loving group of true worshipers of God. Second, I know my personal real life experience and what has drawn my family closer to God by giving praise to God, through his Son as two seperate persons. My background includes 6 years attending Catholic School and 40 years following the Catholic Faith and serving on many volunteer functions with the Catholics. I like the members or I would not choose to hang around here with you guys. There are great people among the Catholic group and it is just my opinions on what has worked for my family to be drawn closer to God and may not work for all.
I don’t think there is one right religion and all the others are wrong, but I do find the time goes by real fast at the Kingdom Hall by continually opening our Bibles and examing scripures and found that hearing the same prayers repeated over and over, with all due respect to be quite boring. Honestly in my opinion I would always be waiting for mass to end and now in my opinion time flies by because I feel I am gaining knowlegde of the true God. Please keep in mind these are just my opinions. God Bless, tommy
W
WBB
Guest
I don’t think you are fully informed here. The NJB, from what I understand, was compiled by multiple linguists with the intention of being as true a translation as possible by consulting various existing texts. The fact that the NJB uses the term Yahweh and other Catholic bibles (and Protestant ones as well) will translate this as LORD does not mean that the Catholics are admitting an error. In our opinion, LORD when referring to the tetragrammaton communicates the same idea as when the tetragrammaton is translated as Yahweh. LORD and Yahweh both refer to God to a Catholic. It is a both/and not an either/or.
T
tommy4321
Guest
Thanks WBB, I really did not know that Lord was a translation. But you do bring up an interest point that the New Jerusalm Bible was translated with the intention of being as true a translation as possible. Is it accepted by the Catholic community that this is a true translation relating to as close as the scriptures were written. If so, what would be the reason that the Catholic Bible translations had changed from the original. Have a great day, tommy
W
WBB
Guest
Depends on what the original translation was! The Catholic Bible translations did not change from the original. Sometimes, when translating between languages, there are several ways to communicate an idea. Recall, the bible as we know it was written by the various authors and compiled in Council by the Church. The earliest versions used by the Church were in Greek. The NJB is a comparative translation by using several translations and comparing them to get the point across in the best possible way according to the linguists who worked on the translation. It is not that the other translations are lacking or incorrect, however, there may have been a more effective phrase to drive a point home in the opinion of the translators of the NJB. The NJB has an *imprimatur *and a nihil obstat which means that it is free of doctrinal error according to the Catholic Church. However, this does not mean that it was commissioned by the Catholic Church, even though I have heard that in some countries, the NJB is what is used for liturgical purposes. I like it because it communicates the scriptures well to me. That may not be the case for other Catholics.
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tommy4321
Guest
Hi Brian, I find it amazing the the New Jerusalem Bible is the favorite among many Catholics. It uses Gods personal name! It also fascinates me to learn this in that it is different from most Bibles supported by the church and to learn from you here that it is free from any docrinal error according to the church. What would be an example of a doctinal error in any other Bible, if you know of one? take care, tommy
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WBB
Guest
That Jesus is not to be worshipped as the Father.
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WBB
Guest
If you look at the acknowledgements of the New Jerusalem Bible, you will see that it has a lot of Catholic contributors. The issue with the personal name of God is a drawback from Judaism, I think, in that it was considered a name too sacred to pronounce. You will still find Jews who will write G-d instead because they consider it offensive to write out the word God. Of course, Jesus told us that this was taking the commandments too far and losing sight of the important thing which is declared in the summary of the law…love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. I know of several people who read the New Jerusalem translation. I love it because it spells out concepts in a way that I can see them more clearly. It has nothing to do with using the term Yahweh instead of LORD, etc. If they used the term LORD in the NJB, I would still use it.
Doctrinal error. Probably if the first chapter of John in the NJB said, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was a god” the Church would have disapproved. Or if the text said specifically, “Jesus is not eternally begotten of the Father, but created” the Church would have an issue. It would be doctrinally in error.
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tommy4321
Guest
Hi Brian: My understanding of the Word was a god (small letter g) was that the small letter g was Jesus and the capital G was God the Almighty. I see what you mean here too that it should be the Word was god as opposed to the Word was “a” god. It looks sort of like a typo. take care, tom
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severinus
Guest
Just a couple of comments.
Re: John 20:28
My Greek NT has nothing about Thomas suddenly pointing, turning, or otherwise gesturing to heaven.
The original verse is:
απικριθη Θωμας και ειπεν αυτω Ο κυριος μου και ο Θεος μου
(Sorry about the lack of breathings and subscripts.)
Translation: Thomas answered and said TO HIM, “My Lord and my God.”
Re: John 1:1
I have a comment on another thread about this very issue. From a purely linguistic, non-theological point of view, the NWT is utterly without merit on John 1:1. It is not honest to translate the Greek into “was a god.” Furthermore, the NWT uses “God” to translate the exact same Greek construction in other places. The pages of justification necessary for this mistranslation of the anarthrous theos betray its falsity.
Far more competent minds than mine have shown the multitude of errors in the NWT and the KIT.
The JWs, I believe, are sincere. The problem is that they are starting with a poor translation of the Scriptures. While it may be difficult to understand a correct translation of the Bible, a mistranslation renders understanding moot.
Re: John 20:28
My Greek NT has nothing about Thomas suddenly pointing, turning, or otherwise gesturing to heaven.
The original verse is:
απικριθη Θωμας και ειπεν αυτω Ο κυριος μου και ο Θεος μου
(Sorry about the lack of breathings and subscripts.)
Translation: Thomas answered and said TO HIM, “My Lord and my God.”
Re: John 1:1
I have a comment on another thread about this very issue. From a purely linguistic, non-theological point of view, the NWT is utterly without merit on John 1:1. It is not honest to translate the Greek into “was a god.” Furthermore, the NWT uses “God” to translate the exact same Greek construction in other places. The pages of justification necessary for this mistranslation of the anarthrous theos betray its falsity.
Far more competent minds than mine have shown the multitude of errors in the NWT and the KIT.
The JWs, I believe, are sincere. The problem is that they are starting with a poor translation of the Scriptures. While it may be difficult to understand a correct translation of the Bible, a mistranslation renders understanding moot.
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