W
WBB
Guest
Hmm. If that is the case, then there are 2 deities according to what you are saying. One God and one god. (Or Gawd as we say in New Orleans
) According to Catholic dogma, there is but One God in Three Persons.
- Status
) According to Catholic dogma, there is but One God in Three Persons.
R
RobertinRSA
Guest
Sorry to burst your bubble tommy, but;
1.) Watchtowernism (i.e. Jehovah’s Witnesses) are NOT Christians.
2.) Revelation is an apocryphal book and thus has already taken place - therefore, pointless and futile even debating the book. It is the same as the book of Daniel. You see if you had tradition together with your Bible you would learn about people such as Josephus and right up to the German scholar, Vischer. Go to a library and do some PROPER research.
3.) Your Bible was put together by the Catholic Church at the Council of Carthage in 295 ce. They decided what was canon and what was not, e.g., Gospel according to St. Thomas, had too many flaws. The Catholic Church were the ONLY protector of our faith until Luther and his merry men ptched up - 15 centuries, basically there would be no Christianity if there was no Catholic Church.
4.) It is important to have tradition, to help one understand and interpret the bible - people spend many years at university studying hermenuetics. Remember, in Deuteronomy it says that it is better to smash your children’s heads against a rock - you’re lucky your parents weren’t biblical fundamentslists!
And lastly, DO NOT JUDGE, remember your time is coming…
So I’ll end off by saying that we will all pray for you.
1.) Watchtowernism (i.e. Jehovah’s Witnesses) are NOT Christians.
2.) Revelation is an apocryphal book and thus has already taken place - therefore, pointless and futile even debating the book. It is the same as the book of Daniel. You see if you had tradition together with your Bible you would learn about people such as Josephus and right up to the German scholar, Vischer. Go to a library and do some PROPER research.
3.) Your Bible was put together by the Catholic Church at the Council of Carthage in 295 ce. They decided what was canon and what was not, e.g., Gospel according to St. Thomas, had too many flaws. The Catholic Church were the ONLY protector of our faith until Luther and his merry men ptched up - 15 centuries, basically there would be no Christianity if there was no Catholic Church.
4.) It is important to have tradition, to help one understand and interpret the bible - people spend many years at university studying hermenuetics. Remember, in Deuteronomy it says that it is better to smash your children’s heads against a rock - you’re lucky your parents weren’t biblical fundamentslists!
And lastly, DO NOT JUDGE, remember your time is coming…
So I’ll end off by saying that we will all pray for you.
T
tommy4321
Guest
Another example of true christian brotherly love. Thanks for sending your blessings my way it sure left a good feeling. Please don’t feel compelled to pray for me but for your own salvation and truths.
T
tommy4321
Guest
Hi Brian:
I thought this thread was going to sort of work its way down, but looks like it got pulled up again. After 1,600 hits there must be some interest in this subject.
Is there any chance, even the smallest, that the concept of the Trinity was a “doctrinal error” created by man in the second century? Not to say that Jesus and God are not in complete agreement, but that they are two distinct persons acting in union in everything. In other words not one God, but Father and the Son. Perhaps the Holy Ghost (Spirit) is not a person at all, but the “active force” in God. I don’t really recall reading anything in the Bible that had indicated to me that the Holy Ghost was a person, it seems more like the “force” of Gods power?
1 John 5:8 includes words that lead many religions to believe the three are as one. However, findings of religious scholars indicate differently, “it is quite certain that these words did not belong to the original text” (The One Volume Bible Commentary, MacMillan 1908). When you research the Trinity, it came about in the 2nd Century from a council and a doctrine and the word “Trinity” is not in the Bible… The 1908 “One Volume Bible Commentary written by MacMillan early last Century goes on to say that the “Trinity is found in no Greek scriptures until the 14th Century and are quoted by none of the Fathers until the 5th Century”. “The Fathers understood the passage in its original form to symbolize the Trinity, an interpretation which may have been inserted at first as a marginal footnote and afterwards found its way into the text”. Peace, tommy
P.S., I have sure enjoyed reading your posts and find you know your scriptures very well.
R
RobertinRSA
Guest
Yip, for even Jesus loved sinners… people like you.
I understand why you didn’t comment on the rest of my mail, as you know that it is the truth.
Actually Tommy you are making a royal twit of yourself, so I suggest that you grow up and get a life. RESPECT other peoples religions - that is the bottom line. This is something that you find hard to do - well then again for someone who has got half a brain, then ok. You are mocking the religion and church that Jesus started - remember what happened to Judas.
I understand why you didn’t comment on the rest of my mail, as you know that it is the truth.
Actually Tommy you are making a royal twit of yourself, so I suggest that you grow up and get a life. RESPECT other peoples religions - that is the bottom line. This is something that you find hard to do - well then again for someone who has got half a brain, then ok. You are mocking the religion and church that Jesus started - remember what happened to Judas.
W
WBB
Guest
I do not believe that there is even the smallest chance that the Trinity is a “doctrinal error” simply because Jesus promised that the “gates of the netherworld” would not prevail against the Church. Furthermore, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, that he would send, would lead the Church into all truth. John 16:13-15:
I put my faith in Jesus and believe with all my heart that he will not let the Church fall into error, no matter what people believe. The Holy Spirit is the soul of the Church. He is an active force in the world, yes, but He is also a person equal in majesty and glory with the Father and the Son. This is Catholic dogma.
I am not familiar with the One Volume Bible Commentary. Indeed, the word “trinity” is not found in the bible, but the concept of one God in 3 persons is found throughout the New Testament. One example is St. Paul’s closing comment in his second letter to the Church at Corinth: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you.” (This is what we call a “trinitarian blessing” which is part of the introductory rite at Mass.) These are revelations by the Holy Spirit for the good of the Church. How you will respond to those revelations is guided by God’s grace. One of the wonderful things about God is that He allows us to make a choice, a characteristic which confirms His infinite love and mercy.
And Tommy, may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you!
Brian
T
tommy4321
Guest
Robert: What troubles you? Name calling is not a good example that Christians set. However, since you took the time to post, I don’t mind answering your questions.
Originally Posted by RobertinRSA
Sorry to burst your bubble tommy, but;
We are very devout Christians and attend five meetings per week and read the Bible daily.
Revelations is about prophecies and so is Daniel. Prophecies are about future events. If this has all happened already, then what two entities does the Wild Beast represent? I think it’s the anglo-american world power and the united nations.
I have been quoting entirely from the New Jerusalem Bible in this thread. Therefore, when you say your Bible are you referring to my New Jerusalem Bible?
It seems like by calling me names that perhaps you are judging. me. Plus, you have entered a part of the site that is inviting contrasting views and you have a choice to remain on the part of the site where everybody thinks the same if you wish not to read contrasting views.
Please pray for your own salvation and finding the real truths in the Bible and lifting the great veil placed over your own eyes. When you say we will all pray for you, speak for yourself, others are free agents. I hope this answers your questions now. Name calling won’t hurt me
Take care and God Bless you, tommy
T
tommy4321
Guest
Hi Brian: As I have stated, I completely respect your views. You have a ton of Bible knowledge and I enjoy reading posts that quote from the Bible. Thanks for your thoughtful responses and have a great day, tommyI do not believe that there is even the smallest chance that the Trinity is a “doctrinal error” simply because Jesus promised that the “gates of the netherworld” would not prevail against the Church. Furthermore, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, that he would send, would lead the Church into all truth. John 16:13-15:
I put my faith in Jesus and believe with all my heart that he will not let the Church fall into error, no matter what people believe. The Holy Spirit is the soul of the Church. He is an active force in the world, yes, but He is also a person equal in majesty and glory with the Father and the Son. This is Catholic dogma.
I am not familiar with the One Volume Bible Commentary. Indeed, the word “trinity” is not found in the bible, but the concept of one God in 3 persons is found throughout the New Testament. One example is St. Paul’s closing comment in his second letter to the Church at Corinth: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you.” (This is what we call a “trinitarian blessing” which is part of the introductory rite at Mass.) These are revelations by the Holy Spirit for the good of the Church. How you will respond to those revelations is guided by God’s grace. One of the wonderful things about God is that He allows us to make a choice, a characteristic which confirms His infinite love and mercy.
And Tommy, may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you!
Brian
D
DeniseR
Guest
I’ve been reading all the posts in this thread. There is so much to comment on but I’ll just deal with an experience I had in discussing the doctrine of the Trinity.
When I was in Tennessee on vacation this summer I was at a flea market and visited a booth of a Christian talking about the “End Times”. He was very anti-Catholic and said that he only believes what he reads in the bible. Our discussion led to the Trinity and I pointed out that the word Trinity is not in the bible. He said that he believes in the Trinity from his own reading of the bible – that although the word is not in the bible the idea is.
My point is that he is taking a truth defined by the Catholic Church in the early centuries and “discovering” it for himself. Yet, he denies the authority of the Church.
D
DeniseR
Guest
I’m a cradle Catholic and was fascinated with the “end times” prophecy talk because we didn’t hear much about it at Church. It’s very addicitive to try to learn about what the future holds. I thought I was getting information the Catholic Church didn’t know about or held back on. I almost joined another church (World Wide Church of God) because they read the bible and seemed to be more informed. I was searching desperately for the truth.
After a couple years of taking their bible study and learning all I could I started attending their Saturday “services”. All the time I had this uneasy feeling – like I was leaving something important but couldn’t put my finger on it. What attracted me to them in the first place was the non-denominational, anti-establishment/organizational idea that wasn’t so much about rules and ritual (as I thought the Catholic Church to be) but was about learning about what the bible really teaches. But the more I got involved the more I learned about the rules this church had. I realized that every religion, no matter how it is sold, has rules to follow and reasons to follow those rules.
I had told my mom I had considered joining this other church and she asked me why. When I gave her all the reasons listed above she asked me to learn what I was leaving with the Catholic Church. Growing up I didn’t have much instruction about the true teachings of the Church.
I became very confused about where the truth was. I stopped going to all churches and reading the bible at all for a few months because I didn’t know what to believe. Finally, I prayed to the Holy Spirit and asked Him to show me the Truth. I would put my trust in Him to lead me to find my way.
Through a series of circumstances I won’t get into here, I returned to the Catholic Church. I started to learn all I could about what the Church teaches. That Jesus founded a church on Peter (the Rock) and the first apostles were the first bishops and the writings of the Early Church Fathers who learned directly from the apostles. The authority of Peter as the first pope and the line of succession to the then current Pope John Paul II. The part that felt right was going back to the sacraments – confession and receiving Christ in the Eucharist. For me it took almost leaving the Church to appreciate what richness it held. I was able to worship and study and raise my family with true understanding of the faith as a Christian. There is no longer confusion about what the truth is. If I don’t understand something I have the Catechism to search that has bible quotes and commentary from early church fathers to help me understand.
I pray you also find your answers, Tommy. I believe you are not here by accident.
After a couple years of taking their bible study and learning all I could I started attending their Saturday “services”. All the time I had this uneasy feeling – like I was leaving something important but couldn’t put my finger on it. What attracted me to them in the first place was the non-denominational, anti-establishment/organizational idea that wasn’t so much about rules and ritual (as I thought the Catholic Church to be) but was about learning about what the bible really teaches. But the more I got involved the more I learned about the rules this church had. I realized that every religion, no matter how it is sold, has rules to follow and reasons to follow those rules.
I had told my mom I had considered joining this other church and she asked me why. When I gave her all the reasons listed above she asked me to learn what I was leaving with the Catholic Church. Growing up I didn’t have much instruction about the true teachings of the Church.
I became very confused about where the truth was. I stopped going to all churches and reading the bible at all for a few months because I didn’t know what to believe. Finally, I prayed to the Holy Spirit and asked Him to show me the Truth. I would put my trust in Him to lead me to find my way.
Through a series of circumstances I won’t get into here, I returned to the Catholic Church. I started to learn all I could about what the Church teaches. That Jesus founded a church on Peter (the Rock) and the first apostles were the first bishops and the writings of the Early Church Fathers who learned directly from the apostles. The authority of Peter as the first pope and the line of succession to the then current Pope John Paul II. The part that felt right was going back to the sacraments – confession and receiving Christ in the Eucharist. For me it took almost leaving the Church to appreciate what richness it held. I was able to worship and study and raise my family with true understanding of the faith as a Christian. There is no longer confusion about what the truth is. If I don’t understand something I have the Catechism to search that has bible quotes and commentary from early church fathers to help me understand.
I pray you also find your answers, Tommy. I believe you are not here by accident.
K
kliner
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
God’s Blessings,
Kevin
Though I haven’t read the book you have listed, I would like to recommend Dr. Scott Hahn’s other book on Revelation: The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth.
God’s Blessings,
Kevin
R
RobertinRSA
Guest
The beast was Nero.
Secondly, JW’s are no more Christian than Muslims and Jews. They are a cult! Let me explain your cult to you;
There are five important facts to remember about the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Organization.
You and all pagans are in my prayers.
Secondly, JW’s are no more Christian than Muslims and Jews. They are a cult! Let me explain your cult to you;
There are five important facts to remember about the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Organization.
- They have accepted the Organization as the Prophet of God.
- They have accepted the Organization as God’s sole channel for His truth.
- They believe that to reject the Organization is to reject God.
- They believe that only the Organization can interpret the Bible; as individuals they are unable to do so.
- They believe the Watchtower Magazine contains God’s truth, directed by Him, through the Organization.
- That Jesus is a created being/a creature.
- That Jesus is actually Michael the Archangel
- That Jesus was not resurrected bodily, but as a spirit being.
- That Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 (secretly to the Organization)
- That Jesus was only a man when on earth, not the Word Become flesh.
- That the Holy Spirit is only an active force, not the person of God.
- That Hell is simply the grave.
- That Heaven’s doors is open to only 144,000.
- That the majority of Witnesses must remain on earth.
- That salvation is found only through the Organization.
- That it must be maintained by energetic works for the Organization until the end when one may merit eternal life on a paradise earth.
- That Satan is the author of the doctrine of the Trinity.
- That Jesus cannot be given worship, but only honor as Jehovah’s first creation.
- The Trinity.
- The Omnipresence of God.
- The Deity of Christ.
- The dual nature of Christ.
- The bodily resurrection of Christ.
- The visible return of Christ.
- The person of God the Holy Spirit.
- The Promise of Heaven to all believers.
- The necessity of the New Birth for all believers.
- The Lord’s Supper for all believers. (only for the 144,0000).
- The Eternal Security of the believer.
- The conscious Eternal Punishment of the lost.
- That God exists in a Trinity of three eternal and co-equal persons: Father (Romans 1:7), Son (John 20:28) and Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3,4 and I John 5:7).
- Jesus is no less than God in human flesh (Colossians 2:9).
- God, the Holy Spirit, is the third member of the Holy Trinity (Matt. 28:19; Acts 13:2).
- Jesus Christ rose bodily from the grave (John 2:20,21; Luke 24:39).
- Jesus is visibly coming again to set up His Kingdom on earth (Matt. 24:30; Acts 1:8; Rev. 1:7).
- Salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ and comes through faith in Him. (Acts 16:31). It’s the work of God for man, not a work of man for God (Titus 3:4-6).
- Jesus was and should be worshipped (John 20:26-28; Matt. 2:10-12, 14:33)
You and all pagans are in my prayers.
T
tommy4321
Guest
Robert: Thanks for confirming my faith. You are very delightful. We don’t have people in our congregation that snarl at others like you have demonstrated. Is this something that most Catholics support and want to be like? It doesn’t seem to me that is what Jesus really wanted from us and I think he wanted us to imitate him?
Some define a sect to mean a group that has broken away from an established religion. Others apply the term to that who follows a leader. The term cult here is used in a derogatory way as JW’s were not an offshoot of any religion and include people from all walks of life that have jobes like you and I. They do not look upon any human, only Jesus as their leader.
A cult is a religion that is said to be unorthodox or that emphasizes devotion according to a ritual. Our group has been a kind loving group of true Christians that really care about us and has helped us with many family matters and we study out of a lovely book, called the Family Happiness Book that ties scriptures into making the family stronger. We do not believe in war or anything that hurts someone else and believe the key to true happiness is a sincere devotion to Jehovah God through Jesus, that was Jesus’ only other commandment other then love the one you may hate.
The standard for what is orthodox should be Gods word and Jehovah Witnesses stick to the Bible very strickly and encourages their members to read it daily, something other facets of religion choose to ignore.
Trust in the Bible. There is much to be learned from God’s Words.
Their worship is a way of life not a ritual, which would be a cult. There are 6,000,000 of them out there and during my 40 years I have checked out a lot of religions and this one has made a HUGE difference in my families life. Peace to you and hope to find calmness. PS. I will pray for you too. tommy
T
tommy4321
Guest
OK, here is why I have been posting here. I have been a Cahtolic for years and am thinking of converting. I wanted to hear the opinions from the Catholic community.
This is a dangerous place for someone to hang out who is studying with the Witnesses. Probably the worst place a Witness could hang out. Sort of like if you you went into Yankee stadium and said you were a Red Sox’s fan. Or better yet, if you were a Jack Rabbit and ran out into a field with Hound Dogs.
Over the last several weeks I have not heard any convincing agruements that have told me I am going in the wrong direction but rather several reaffirmations that I going in the right direction and I will keep the course that I know is favorable to Jesus Christ. Peace and thanks to everbody for your help and time, tommy
This is a dangerous place for someone to hang out who is studying with the Witnesses. Probably the worst place a Witness could hang out. Sort of like if you you went into Yankee stadium and said you were a Red Sox’s fan. Or better yet, if you were a Jack Rabbit and ran out into a field with Hound Dogs.
Over the last several weeks I have not heard any convincing agruements that have told me I am going in the wrong direction but rather several reaffirmations that I going in the right direction and I will keep the course that I know is favorable to Jesus Christ. Peace and thanks to everbody for your help and time, tommy
C
catsrus
Guest
Then you need to open your ears and eyes because I spent 18 months going to kingdom halls and the back biting was there as everywhere.
Apparently you have not inquired into the witness history as recommended.
I guess disfellowshiping a person who has had trouble is not considered “hurting”.
You quickly dismiss all the patience and efforts of those who have taken their time to talk to you. How correct of you to state that you didn’t hear. You haven’t heard because you have closed your mind and your heart.
Good luck to you. You’re sure going to need it. The deeper involved you become with these people, the more you’re going to to need it. Before you take the “final plunge”, please look at the history of this group. You are on the verge of denying Christ, and that, my friend, is mortal sin.
Goodbye to you tommy. I will pray for your soul (though the jws have told you that you don’t have one).
T
tommy4321
Guest
Hi:
Disfellowshiping is not a fear of mine and has no sway on my beliefs. Once, when I was a Catholic my wife (girlfriend at the time) were on holiday in Virginia City, NV and attended a Mass. They were doing confessions the particular day we were there. We decided to come back and go the confession. The Catholic priest asked if we had premarital sex and when we told him we did, he told us he could not hear our confession and basically expelled us. We were bummed out and it ruined the rest of our trip.
As I stated before this keeps the congregation clean so you can trust those around you and you know you don’t have molesters or drunk drivers in the crowd. I know some Catholics like to party and it has actually been five years that I have studied with this group and I wont drink beyond my limit for the most part anymore and this makes for a better father, husband and member of the community.
In the congregation of God it is meant to maintain the purity of the organization doctrinally and morally. I can leave my 8 year old Son for a weekend and not have to worry is he safe. Let’s say there are 2% of the stated priests that are molesters. I let him go off with 10 of them for a weekend retreat. Mathematically he has a 20% chance that one has had molestation issues and expellment could have saved some of the one billion dollar problem that has undressed the church and weekly collection money now goes to fund it’s defense.
God sentenced Adam to death and drove him and his wife out of the Garden of Eden (disfellowshipped) (Ge 3:19, 23, 24). Cain was disfellowshipped and became a wanderer and a fugitive in the earth (Ge 4:11, 14, 16). 23,000 fornicators were cut off from Israel in one day (1Co 10:8). Jesus foretold that his followers would be expelled from the synagogues (Jon 16:2). Fear of being expelled, or “unchurched” kept some of the Jews, even the rulers, from confessing Jesus. (John 9:22).
The apostle Paul, with the authority vested in him, ordered the expulsion of an incestuous fornicator who had taken his fathers wife (1Co 5:5, 11, 13).Those who have been expelled may be let back into the congregation if they express sincere repentance (2Co 2:5-8). Lastly, we believe and so do the Witness that we have souls and so do animals, surprise, surprise. Take Care and have a great day, tommy
D
DeniseR
Guest
Could it have been guilt? Or didn’t you know that you and your girlfriend were sinning by fornicating? If you were truly sorry then the priest would have heard your confession and granted you absolution. If you weren’t sorry then you would not be welcomed to receive the sacraments until which time you repented and confessed.
You keep bringing up the abuse scandal. You forget that abusers can be in any group of people, including JWs. As for Catholics who sin by drinking too much, etc. – I’ll speak for myself – it’s all the more reason I need the Church. I’m a work in progress and when I do sin, whether it’s by driving too fast or eating too much or telling a lie or cheating on my taxes or gossiping I need God’s forgiveness and the knowledge that when I fall, am truly repentant, confess, and receive absolution, I am cleansed of my sins through Jesus’ blood.
You have been dismissing the warnings from many here to your own detriment. Don’t let pride get in your way. Even if you don’t let us know if you don’t become a JW, please, please reconsider joinging. LEARN ABOUT WHAT THE CHURCH JESUS CHRIST FOUNDED TEACHES BEFORE YOU REJECT IT!!!
God’s grace be with you.
T
tommy4321
Guest
There was no rationalizing with this old priest. We know what God wants, thanks for your kindness. Did you wait until you were married?
T
tommy4321
Guest
Just an afterthought, it has been stated that 2% of priests are involved in the molestation sex scandal. There is not 2% of the public cited as molestors and certainly the Witnesses have no such problem in their congregation, especially not 2%. This figure came to me in written format from a large Apologetic Department you all know well…
D
DeniseR
Guest
Well, that is none of your business. But, in fact, I did not. I also avoided going to church because I didn’t want to change. Once I realized how wrong I was and the shame I had brought onto myself I went to confession and was welcomed back to church.
The point is that we may not like what God tells us is the right thing to do or what is wrong and we should avoid. But if we are truly searching for the truth and realize that we cannot live the way we want but the way God commands then we will return like the Prodigal Son. There is also a freedom that comes with living in the state of Grace.
- Status