Revelations...are we ready...

[tommy4321]

scylla:

I am glad you responded to this thread, my friend who is a Jehovah’s Witness has not called me in more than 2 weeks. I will try calling him tomorrow to see if he still want to talk to me.

From what I see is that Jehovah’s Witnesses have to trust their organizations interpretation of the Bible, but I still haven’t had the chance to get the response from my friend of why? How did Charles Taze Russel get the authority to interpret the Bible, and why has the interpretation changed?

Can you please post some links to prove the Bible came directly from God, that he didn’t work through the Catholic Church? As far as I can see the Bible’s canon was first determined by the Catholic Church around late 300AD. If you are going to contest against a common understanding of where the Bible came from, please provide some documentation to assert this claim.

God Bless
Scylla

Hi Scylla,

You won’t find many Wittnesses on forums, they believe time is better spent preaching the good news of the Kingdom and Jehovah Gods name that has been lost by religion by influences of the evil one who hates his name. Since I am only a Bible student at this stage I don’t completely follow this but do get further on my studies and five Christian weekly meetings by leaving forums alone and perhaps your friend is focusing on drawing close to Jehovah God and is steering from negative influences.

Charles Russel is a man and we are to follow Jesus and his Father and to discern what men predict as they are not always correct but 1914 was meaningful as it was when nation went against nation and Jesus took over rulership in Heaven. This prediction came as early as 1822 in early German publications.

I still stand by we don’t need any other documentation other then the Bible. For example, in the second century men debated on who Jesus was, whether he was God or the Son of God. It took a council of men and a doctrine to form an opinion which could mislead the masses of followers who need God not man to decide what is right as trust should be in God and not man.

No other documentation except the Bible is neccessary. 2 Timothy 3:16 gives us sound direction. “All scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness”. God Bless you too, (Bless Jehovah Yahweh God in these times where his name has been lost by the evil one’s influence) tommy

 

[tommy4321]

PaulDupre:

Hi Tommy,
Do a google search on “Jehovah’s Witnesses child molestation”. You will get thousands of articles about the worldwide epidemic of child sexual abuse in the JW’s and how the leadership routinely protects the molesters and threatens the victims and their families into silence.

Just because the RCC is the biggest target and gets the most negative press, that doesn’t mean it has the biggest problem.

God love you,
Paul

This problem is of epidemic mass among the Catholic and Protestant clergy. Witnesses do not have clergy leaders and is not this huge 2% stated number. They do not allow an adult to be alone with a child. In fact, they do not even allow a male and a female to be alone so this human problem doesn’t happen as Satan is running freely making as much trouble as he can before he is locked up in the abyss to the 1,000 year period before Jehovah God regains his sovereignty. Peace and Love, tommy

 

[tommy4321]

santaro75:

Remember, jesus started a church and gave all authority to it. He did not give us a bible. And that is 100 percent biblical. however the Bible alone is not biblical.

Am I wrong?

Respectfully, you are. Jesus read from and quoted the Old Testament as we see in the NT. He quoted Isaiah and Psalms. Jesus started Chrisitanity.

 

[tommy4321]

PaulDupre:

Hi Tommy,
Who are the 144,000? The bible says they are “undefiled by women, for they are virgins”. I don’t know of any celibate JWs, do you? Yet every JW I ever met tells me that they are sure they are one of the 144,000. How do you reconcile this?
God love you,
Paul

Hey Paul, The 144,000 are the ruling class with Jesus in Heaven. They are made up of disciples, holy ones and others from the smaller flock of sheep as we learn from John and Luke. I don’t think many Wittnesses claim to be in the ruling class. In five years I have only met one full time Pioneer who feels God has a purpose for him in this class. I study with him, but the other 100 members of our congregation do not feel they are worthy or undefiled to be in the annointed class of holy ones. Bless God, tommy

 

[tommy4321]

ByzCath:

Hmmm, but what about all the other books that are not included in the canon of the Bible, who decided that they did not belong there?

Or is there a list in the Bible that tells us which books are the inspired Word of God and belong in the Bible? Did God inspire the table of contents at the front of my Bible?

Why isn’t the Gospel of Timothy, the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Gospel of Pilot’s Wife, and all the other Gnostic Gospels not included in the Bible? Why no Bible with The Gospel of the Birth of Mary, The Protevangelion, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Last Gospel of Peter?

It is exactly because of the Holy Spirit working though the Catholic Church in an Ecumencial Council that we have the Bible as we do today, that is the Catholic Bible. The protestants tore books that are the inspired Word of God out of their Bibles becasue they did not fit their view of Christianity.

God has an abundant amount of Power. Remember he was the one who brought the 10 plagues and divided the Red Sea. He also has the power through his Prophets, like Daniel and holy ones to created His book, the Bible, the only Book we need and place trust in. Peace and Love, tommy

 

[tommy4321]

ByzCath:

In a sense, yes. In the sense that you misrepresent yourself and attempt to lead people away from the True Church of Christ.

It is Ok if you think I am a criminal, it won’t hurt my feelings any. There are more here to defend your faith and I am a mere minority here.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tommy4321:

santaro75:

Remember, jesus started a church and gave all authority to it. He did not give us a bible. And that is 100 percent biblical. however the Bible alone is not biblical.
Am I wrong?

Respectfully, you are. Jesus read from and quoted the Old Testament as we see in the NT. He quoted Isaiah and Psalms. Jesus started Chrisitanity.

Ummm, respectfully you are wrong tommy.

There was no such thing as the Old Testament in the days of Jesus. It was called the Torah (and still is called such by the Jews).

Yes Jesus did start Christianity, He did so by starting His Church, the Catholic Church.

There was no Bible in that day, there was no Bible in the first couple of centuries of the Church.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tommy4321:

God has an abundant amount of Power. Remember he was the one who brought the 10 plagues and divided the Red Sea. He also has the power through his Prophets, like Daniel and holy ones to created His book, the Bible, the only Book we need and place trust in. Peace and Love, tommy

But again, you just side step the question.

How did the Bible come to be? How was it decided which books, of the many, many, books out there, should be in the Bible?

Yes we know that the Bible, the Catholic Bible, contains all the books that are inspired by God. The protestant bible is missing many of them.

But how do we know they are inspired and belong in the Bible?

It is becuase of the Holy Spirit and His work through man. Those men happened to be the Bishops of the Catholic Church meeting in an Ecumenical Council. With out them there would be no Bible.

 

[tommy4321]

ByzCath:

But again, you just side step the question.

How did the Bible come to be? How was it decided which books, of the many, many, books out there, should be in the Bible?

Yes we know that the Bible, the Catholic Bible, contains all the books that are inspired by God. The protestant bible is missing many of them.

But how do we know they are inspired and belong in the Bible?

It is becuase of the Holy Spirit and His work through man. Those men happened to be the Bishops of the Catholic Church meeting in an Ecumenical Council. With out them there would be no Bible.

Hello Again BysCath: I’ve read and reread your posts and have attempted to be complete and honest (unlike a criminal) and see lots of quotes from councils and doctines and no scripture quotes.

It is not possible for any human to truly understand God’s works other then it is His words that insired the Bible and yes, different religions DO have various translations and I am not saying Catholics are all wrong, they are a large group of loving people. I believe that prior to the end of the current system lots will be revealed and much of what we will learn will surprise Catholics including the praise belonging to Jesus’ Father Yahweh God through Jesus Christ his Son, our Messiah who Jesus requested we worship. The great veil will be lifted. Many will be saved and given the opportunity of everlasting life with Jesus Christ!!!

It is my opinion the Bible is God’s inspired Word written by Him and not a religion.

Here is how the Bible came to be and why we can trust in it. The Bible is the ONLY source we need. It is a Book of instruction. The Bible fills our need for wise direction.

The knowledge of God can lead to everlasting life. The Bible covers 3,500 years of human creation and it’s Words are still valid today. Most books written this long ago have no application today. All scripture is inspired by God. The OT and the NT blend together and complement each other to create a harmonious theme.

There is a common thread from Genesis to Revelations. Jesus read the Bible and quoted from it. Scriptures are beneficial for disciplining in righteousness. Bible reflects a keen understanding that applies to every generation of mankind. The Bible tells us what to do and what pitfalls to avoid in our everyday life. Jesus provided instruction in how to pray in the Bible.

The Bible is scientifically accurate for example when the prophet Isaiah 40:22 referred to the sky as a circle 3,000 years ago when it was accepted the world was flat. Historians nearly always exagerate their victories and hide thier defeats. Not in the Bible, we see defeats and mistakes (1Kings 14;25, Isiah 36:1, Luke 3: 1-2).

The Bible not only shows prophecies but how they were fullfilled which were not from man but from God.Isaiah’s prophecy about the fall of Babylon was recorded 200 years before Babylon was conquered. Zechariah 11:12 fortold that Jesus would be betrayed for 30 sheckles of silver. Yes, that is right exactly 30 sheckles. Psalms 22:18 said that the soldiers would cast lots for Jesus’ garments. Hundreds of facts were written about the promised coming of the Messiah.

The Bible survived more controversy then any other book and there has been 6 billion copies printed. Micah 5:2 foretold that Christ would be born in Bethlehem. Should not this build our trust in what the Bible promises? God cannot lie. Jesus’ main command was to love one another. Yet, there are so many mistakes we make everyday, for example, by getting mad in people in our cars that are mere misunderstandings and if we applied Bible principles people would be nicer to one another. A simple shine and glow of how you would image Jesus when these misunderstandings occur drives the evil out of most situations inspired by Words of love and peace we read.

The point behind Christianity is to be reasonable and not argumentative, which we also learn from the Bible. Bible knowledge really benefits people 1 Peter 3:1-2. Bible study brings rich blessings Psalms 19:11 The Bible is God’s inspired word and we can trust it. Bless God through Jesus and may we all find peace, salvation and love everywhere we happen to be. Love, tommy

 

[E.E.N.S]

The point behind Christianity is to be reasonable and not argumentative,

So the point of Christianity is to be reasonable? I thought the point of Christianity was salvation.

tommy4321:

The Bible is God’s inspired word and we can trust it.

I think what ByzCath was asking/implying is, how do you know that the Bible is the Word of God?

 

[E.E.N.S]

tommy4321:

The knowledge of God can lead to everlasting life. The Bible covers 3,500 years of human creation and it’s Words are still valid today. Most books written this long ago have no application today. All scripture is inspired by God. The OT and the NT blend together and complement each other to create a harmonious theme.

There is a common thread from Genesis to Revelations. Jesus read the Bible and quoted from it. Scriptures are beneficial for disciplining in righteousness. Bible reflects a keen understanding that applies to every generation of mankind. The Bible tells us what to do and what pitfalls to avoid in our everyday life. Jesus provided instruction in how to pray in the Bible.

The Bible is scientifically accurate for example when the prophet Isaiah 40:22 referred to the sky as a circle 3,000 years ago when it was accepted the world was flat. Historians nearly always exagerate their victories and hide thier defeats. Not in the Bible, we see defeats and mistakes (1Kings 14;25, Isiah 36:1, Luke 3: 1-2).

The Bible not only shows prophecies but how they were fullfilled which were not from man but from God.Isaiah’s prophecy about the fall of Babylon was recorded 200 years before Babylon was conquered. Zechariah 11:12 fortold that Jesus would be betrayed for 30 sheckles of silver. Yes, that is right exactly 30 sheckles. Psalms 22:18 said that the soldiers would cast lots for Jesus’ garments. Hundreds of facts were written about the promised coming of the Messiah.

The Bible survived more controversy then any other book and there has been 6 billion copies printed. Micah 5:2 foretold that Christ would be born in Bethlehem. Should not this build our trust in what the Bible promises? God cannot lie. Jesus’ main command was to love one another. Yet, there are so many mistakes we make everyday, for example, by getting mad in people in our cars that are mere misunderstandings and if we applied Bible principles people would be nicer to one another. A simple shine and glow of how you would image Jesus when these misunderstandings occur drives the evil out of most situations inspired by Words of love and peace we read.

You have a lot of good points here, and I agree with most of them, but where you made a vital mistake is when you said;

tommy4321:

Here is how the Bible came to be and why we can trust in it. The Bible is the ONLY source we need. It is a Book of instruction. The Bible fills our need for wise direction.

The Bible nowhere states that Scripture is the ONLY source, in fact it says that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church. (An entire thread can go from here; a whole Catechism actually! )

 

[tommy4321]

E.E.N.S.:

You have a lot of good points here, and I agree with most of them, but where you made a vital mistake is when you said;
The Bible nowhere states that Scripture is the ONLY source, in fact it says that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church. (An entire thread can go from here; a whole Catechism actually! )

Hey E.E.N.S. How ya been? The reason I say this is because Churches have doctrines and councils that can lead one astray from Jesus’ teachings.

The Church or congregation is essential for good fellowship and discussion of what is written in the One book and can also lead to misinformation about the Bible if the group rationalizes items regarding doctines that can lead to doctrinal error.

The Church can also lead to paganism. For example, we hear a lot about St. Patrick and St. Valentine (we even have a pegan holiday on this one). But we don’t we have a Saint Daniel for example. He survived the lions den, the fiery ovens and we read his name in the Bible and he was a great prophet. take care, off the work, tommy

 

[tommy4321]

E.E.N.S.:

So the point of Christianity is to be reasonable? I thought the point of Christianity was salvation. I think what ByzCath was asking/implying is, how do you know that the Bible is the Word of God?

One word…“faith” is how we know that this was Gods inspired Words and not mans in my opinion. Salvation can be a greed thing in the sense of what is in it for “me”. Love is an expression of what is in it for others and focus on one being reasonable to demonstrate Love.

 

[santaro75]

tommy4321:

God has an abundant amount of Power. Remember he was the one who brought the 10 plagues and divided the Red Sea. He also has the power through his Prophets, like Daniel and holy ones to created His book, the Bible, the only Book we need and place trust in. Peace and Love, tommy

I think you dodged the question here because no one is saying that the book is uninspired. We believe that it is, initially by the guarantee of the church, then by our own revelations in reading it.

Where do you get that the bible is the sole authority? Is that an extrabiblical tradition?

 

[E.E.N.S]

tommy4321:

Hey E.E.N.S. How ya been?

I have been great! And yourself?

tommy4321:

The reason I say this is because Churches have doctrines and councils that can lead one astray from Jesus’ teachings.

Don’t you think it could be possible that the same Holy Spirit that guided the authors of the Bible could guide the apostles and their successors as well (especially in the area of protecting the written Word of God from error in its interpretation)?

tommy4321:

The Church or congregation is essential for good fellowship and discussion of what is written in the One book and can also lead to misinformation about the Bible if the group rationalizes items regarding doctines that can lead to doctrinal error.

And we see this happen all the time outside of the Church; amongst many of the churches that have seperated themselves from the One True Church. It is a tragic thing, but just look at what happens when people interpret the Bible for themselves - everybody interprets it differently! Who’s right? They all claim that the Holy Spirit was with them in their interpretation. Remember, Christ said that if there is a dispute to take it to the Church.

tommy4321:

The Church can also lead to paganism. For example, we hear a lot about St. Patrick and St. Valentine (we even have a pegan holiday on this one). But we don’t we have a Saint Daniel for example. He survived the lions den, the fiery ovens and we read his name in the Bible and he was a great prophet. take care, off the work, tommy

The Church does not lead to paganism - it does just the opposite…I think you misunderstand or lack knowledge of feast days and such (this is what I get from this section of your post, as I am not sure what you are directly implying.)

 

[E.E.N.S]

tommy4321:

One word…“faith” is how we know that this was Gods inspired Words and not mans in my opinion. Salvation can be a greed thing in the sense of what is in it for “me”. Love is an expression of what is in it for others and focus on one being reasonable to demonstrate Love.

That doesn’t answer how you know that the Bible is the inspired Word of God…but yes, you must have faith. However, why the Bible as opposed to the Qur’an or the Book of Mormon, etc.? How have we come to know what is inspired? By what authority?

Jesus established a Church (which Scripture calls His “Body” (cf. Eph 1:22-23), His “Bride” (cf. Eph 5:25-32), and the “pillar and foundation of truth” (cf. 1 Tim 3:15). Jesus chose to found the Church so that His followers could be spiritually guided, nourished and reconciled throughout their earthly lives in preparation to spend eternal life with God in heaven. It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books. This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.

I want to post a paragraph from the DECREE OF RECEPTION OF THE SACRED BOOKS AND APOSTOLIC TRADITIONS:
(210) The holy ecumenical and general Council of Trent…] has always this purpose in mind that in the Church errors be removed and the purity of the Gospel be preserved. The Gospel was promised of old through the prophets in the Sacred Scriptures; Our Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, first promulgated it from his own lips; he in turn ordered that it be preached through the apostles to all creatures as the source of all savings truth and norms of conduct. The Council clearly perceives that this truth and rule are contained in the written books and unwritten traditions which have come down to us, having been received by the apostles from the mouth of Christ himself or from the apostles by the dictation of the Holy Spirit, and have been transmitted as it were from hand to hand. Following, then, the example of the orthodox Fathers, it receives and venerates with the same sense of loyalty and reverence all the books of the Old and New Testament-for the one God is the author of both-together with all the traditions concerning faith and practice, as coming from the mouth of Christ or being inspired by the Holy Spirit and preserved in continuous succession in the Catholic Church.

 

[tommy4321]

E.E.N.S.:

The Church does not lead to paganism - it does just the opposite…I think you misunderstand or lack knowledge of feast days and such (this is what I get from this section of your post, as I am not sure what you are directly implying.)

Jehovah God is a jealous God and praise to Saints not directed to him hurts him and is therefore known as pegan. For example, Jesus asked we remember him by his death and not his birth.

Praising someone by their birth is a pegan belief. How do we know this hurts Jesus and God. There are only two references in the Bible regarding the celebration of ones birth. One is where Jesus’ friend and relative John the Baptist’s head was given to King Herods daughter on a silver plate for example which must have been very hurtful to Jesus. Therefore it is not the Birthday celebration so much, but the orgin of the non-Godly celebration that is pegan.

Any praise to Saints is not heard since Jesus stated that the only way to get to his Father is through him.

 

[E.E.N.S]

tommy4321:

…John the Baptist’s head was given…

By the way, did you know that today is the feast day of the beheading of St. John the Baptist? Interesting that you brought that up.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tommy4321:

Hello Again BysCath: I’ve read and reread your posts and have attempted to be complete and honest (unlike a criminal) and see lots of quotes from councils and doctines and no scripture quotes.

Hmm, I do not recall posting any quotes from councils nor any doctrines here in this thread.

Yet you have done so as I will point out later.

It is not possible for any human to truly understand God’s works other then it is His words that insired the Bible and yes, different religions DO have various translations and I am not saying Catholics are all wrong, they are a large group of loving people. I believe that prior to the end of the current system lots will be revealed and much of what we will learn will surprise Catholics including the praise belonging to Jesus’ Father Yahweh God through Jesus Christ his Son, our Messiah who Jesus requested we worship. The great veil will be lifted. Many will be saved and given the opportunity of everlasting life with Jesus Christ!!!

But how do we know that the books of the Bible are inspired and the books that were not included in the Bible, such as (just to name one) the Gospel of Nicodemus is not inspired?

It is my opinion the Bible is God’s inspired Word written by Him and not a religion.

How is one to know this? Did God inspire a table of contents so we can know which books belong in the Bible and which do not?

Here is how the Bible came to be and why we can trust in it. The Bible is the ONLY source we need. It is a Book of instruction. The Bible fills our need for wise direction.

Here you state a doctrine, that of sola scriptura which is not found in the Bible, or can you give me chapter and verse that says that the Bible is all?

And if it is true then what about the Christians of the first couple of centuries? There was no Bible then, what did they do?

I will provide scripture that seems to refute sola scriptura.

John 21:25
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

1 Corinthians 11:2
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Timothy 2:2
and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to the faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

The knowledge of God can lead to everlasting life. The Bible covers 3,500 years of human creation and it’s Words are still valid today. Most books written this long ago have no application today. All scripture is inspired by God. The OT and the NT blend together and complement each other to create a harmonious theme.

Yet you can not tell us how it was determined which books were inspired and which books were not.

There is a common thread from Genesis to Revelations. Jesus read the Bible and quoted from it. Scriptures are beneficial for disciplining in righteousness. Bible reflects a keen understanding that applies to every generation of mankind. The Bible tells us what to do and what pitfalls to avoid in our everyday life. Jesus provided instruction in how to pray in the Bible.

Again, by what process was this done? How was it found that the books of the Bible have a common thread and those not in it do not?

Also, Jesus did not read from the Bible as the Bible did not exist until centuries after his death and ressurection. Jesus read from the Torah.

And I will leave it at that as you keep avoiding the question.

 

[Ignatius]

tommy1234:

Thanks for the last couple of posts. Let me try just a few questions. Is Mary, the Mother of God or the Mother of Jesus? I thought God was the Alpha and the Omega.

I belonged to the largest church in Contra Costa County with 3,000 members and was a senior member of their finance council. Therefore, in addition to my non-practicing family and friends I saw a ton of non-practicing Catholics. So why are members not encouraged to bring their Bibles to church so they can follow along with the first and second reading and the Gospel?

Is just two reading and the Gospel feeding the members with enough spiritually so they open the Bible later? What I have gained over the last several years is a knowledge of every book in the Bible. After 40 years, yes, 40 years as a Catholic I had to refer to the Index quite a bit because the catholic Church did not make it a practice of bring the Bible

Really, 40 years as a Catholic and you didn’t know that virtually every word in the Mass is from the Scriptures? The entire Gospels are read every three years. Weren’t paying attention? What is in those book in the pews? Perhaps you didn’t learn the faith very well. C’mon Tommy, admit it, you never really learned the Faith; you were never a real, faithful Catholic to begin with, were you?

BTW, what’s wrong with small Bible study groups?