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tommy4321
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Nothing is wrong with small Bible study groups. My point is that members should bring the Bible into mass so everybody has the experience of going thru Scriptures.
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tommy4321
Guest
Jesus read from scriptures that later became known as the Bible. The Bible was composed of writings from Prophets, holy ones, kings, Moses and letters from the apostles. I am not sure where you are going with this other then claiming the Catholic church wrote the Bible?
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tommy4321
Guest
sorry, I left out the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.
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scylla
Guest
We have Bible studies after Mass for about an hour, where it is more a question answer session. The focus of the Mass is worship of God, though if you look at it closely it is all scripturally based.
But instead of having to bother with flipping through pages, it is organized for you to worship God without having to worry about bringing a Bible with you. We have Bibles in the Church for small group study, so most of us can just grab one off the shelf.
As for Birthdays being pagan. I seem to remember that before the scripture you quoted Genesis 4:1 shows Eve celebrating the birth of her son, saying “I have gotten a man from the Lord.”
A birthday has a special connection with God in that we celebrate the gift of life He is giving us. Now who has the authority to inteprete that it is a bad thing to celebrate the gift of life.
Now this falls back on the authority of the Watchtower Organization to make up a prohibition based on the Watchtower’s interpretation of the Bible.
It all boils down to how did Charles Taze Russell get the authority to intepret scripture and why, if he was correct in recieving that authority, does the Watchtower retain it?
I am not attacking you in any way, you are my separated brother in Christ, I just believe if the Watchtower holds the truth it should logically be able to back it’s assertion that it is the organization that should do that.
As for “religion” the old church I used to go to used to like to say they weren’t a religion also. How would the Watchtower not be a religion if it has a basic set of beliefs in a diety? Isn’t that the definition of religion?
God Bless
Scylla
But instead of having to bother with flipping through pages, it is organized for you to worship God without having to worry about bringing a Bible with you. We have Bibles in the Church for small group study, so most of us can just grab one off the shelf.
As for Birthdays being pagan. I seem to remember that before the scripture you quoted Genesis 4:1 shows Eve celebrating the birth of her son, saying “I have gotten a man from the Lord.”
A birthday has a special connection with God in that we celebrate the gift of life He is giving us. Now who has the authority to inteprete that it is a bad thing to celebrate the gift of life.
Now this falls back on the authority of the Watchtower Organization to make up a prohibition based on the Watchtower’s interpretation of the Bible.
It all boils down to how did Charles Taze Russell get the authority to intepret scripture and why, if he was correct in recieving that authority, does the Watchtower retain it?
I am not attacking you in any way, you are my separated brother in Christ, I just believe if the Watchtower holds the truth it should logically be able to back it’s assertion that it is the organization that should do that.
As for “religion” the old church I used to go to used to like to say they weren’t a religion also. How would the Watchtower not be a religion if it has a basic set of beliefs in a diety? Isn’t that the definition of religion?
God Bless
Scylla
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
In a matter of speaking.
After all, all of the New Testament books were written by members of the Church that Christ formed, the Catholic Church.
You still have yet to tell us how it was determined which of all the books out there were inspired and therefore part of the Bible. You have not given any reasons as to why the Gospel of Luke is in the Bible and the Gospel of Nicodemus is not. Yes one is (name removed by moderator)sired and the other isn’t but how do we know this?
After that, you can tell use why the protestants took books out of the Bible.
Then you can tell us why the JW have rewritten the Bible.
When Jesus read the scriptures there was no Bible, there was just the Torah. Yes the Torah was included in the Bible, centuries after the death and resurrection of Jesus. So it is incorrect to say that Jesus read the Bible as the Bible did not yet exist.
What did the early Christians of the first couple of centuries do as the Bible didn’t exist, if as you say, the Bible is all that is needed?
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tommy4321
Guest
At the Sunday Kingdom Hall Worship last Sunday the speaker quoted translations from the King James Version and wording from two other Bibles. I believe it is a misnomer that Witnesses will only read from their version. The main difference with the NWT is that Jehovah’s (Yahweh in Hebrew) was reinserted into the OT. I too questioned why Jehovah was inserted in the NT over 280 times and learned that Jesus most often referred to God simply as his “Father” as he taught us to pray. But when speaking to the context as the Father being their (the groups) Father, it would have been most likely said Yahweh, your God as the name was used often in early times before concealed and nearly lost completely.
As far as the pegan holidays, it is the small things that please Jehovah God in giving up non-Godly fesitivals that are termed pegan.
On a serious note this was difficult for our family at first. I initially viewed giving up X-Mass and B-Days as unjoyous. We have replaced these celebrations with just because celebrations and get togethers. He have received rich blessings by these sacrifices that we know is pleasing to God.
Plus the stress of multiple parties celebrating the day someone was born has freed up much time and stress which usually ended up with bratty kids saying they already have the gift anyway. The whole X-Mass season was a mess from the clutter of Santa Claus going up, the dirty tree in the living room, to the lights outside the house that would then go out and I would be out in the rain trying to fix a bulb.
Jehovah, our God appreciates the small things and he knows he can trust us in the big things, especially when it is focused around a direct worship to Him alone. Peace and Love, tommy
P.S., someone tell me the answer where the Bible came from. All I can honestly say that you are looking for in this question is that a third century Catholic council wentt through all the writings to decide what is authentic and was to be included and therefore I should acknowledge that the Bible comes from Catholics?
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tommy4321
Guest
Christ formed Christianity and the word Catholic was not included in the Bible and came after his death.
What was deemed authentic was included in the Bible. We have four Gospels to read from giving similar accounts. It could be said that now that the Dead Sea scrolls have been found that those should be included. John told us at the end of Revelations not to add or subtract from the scriptures.
I am not familiar with the protestant religion.
The NWT is not the only Bible read from and Wittness are happy to read from ones own Bible during Bible Studies. The NWT has restored Jehovah’s name to the original Hebrew writings in the OT using Jehovah’s name (English translation of the Hebrew name Yahweh). Church has been replaced with congregation. Cross and has been replaced with Torture Stake ect. For the most part the rest of the scriptures are the same and it is another translation. Similar to why the Catholic Church themselves has various translations that use different words and all translations are not the same.
Regardless of the name used at the time Jesus read “scriptures” that found itself into was is known today as the Bible.
They read from Scriptues such as Psalms, Daniel, Genesis and Proverbs. There were quotes from Moses, Daniel, King David and King Solomom that are the same as we read today.
Through God’s Prophets, Kings, and Apostles the Bible was written and the Catholic Church did not srite the Bible. God did through his inspired word and no Man can take credit for Gods works.
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tommy4321
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I missed a few questions and am trying to be complete. I am sorry if I miss any as sometimes there are quite a few.
scylla:
scylla:
I haven’t heard Russells name mentioned much during the three years of attending meetings. All the Wittnesses follow is what is written in the Bible and there is not any clergy or leaders. We do have speakers, elders and overseers but it is generally interaction with general members without a leader. Pope Bendict has received new authority from who and did he have that authority before and what would have changed to give him new authority?
scylla:
scylla:
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Thats great on the Bible Studies. I too love the intereaction and opening of the Bible and discussing the Scriptures.
I used to keep my Bible in great shape. Now I write all over the 6 translations and you would be surprised how marked up they are. It is easier for me when I open perhaps the same Scripture and it is underlined for you. Plus when I get real old I think my surviving family will appreciate all the notes and perhaps learn from some of the writings in the margins.scylla said:
Wittnesses have parties celebrating a shower at child birth. It is the reoccuring memorial celebration that is a non-Godly festival.scylla said:
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I haven’t heard Russells name mentioned much during the three years of attending meetings. All the Wittnesses follow is what is written in the Bible and there is not any clergy or leaders. We do have speakers, elders and overseers but it is generally interaction with general members without a leader. Pope Bendict has received new authority from who and did he have that authority before and what would have changed to give him new authority?
You very kind and we feel blessed attending meetings with the organization and our studies are much wider than just the Watchtower. But I do enjoy the material they put out and the visual illustrations.
The Wittnesses are a religion and their name appears in the Bible. For example, where we read God’s “Wittnesses” throughout Matthew and the Gospel. Thats our group (religion) that I am studying with. tommy
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scylla
Guest
Thank you for the reply, I appreciate the time you took in responding to me.
I have often heard things against “religion” as if it was a bad word, I appreciate your honesty in your response. Actually for the evangelical church I used to attend then would sneer at that word, even if I pointed out it’s meaning.
Now in regards to authority, I do believe you in your beliefs being based on the Bible, but in order to arrive at those beliefs they are based on the Watchtowers intepretation, or else you would be somewhere else. This was originally interpreted by Charles Taze Russell (though there is rumor it might be someone else) and handed down, guided by the Watchtower.
(kinda similar to what I will describe below)
As for Pope Benedict, he received his authority by being the successor of the previous Pope. As Pope he is entrusted to guard the understanding of the faith as passed down by the apostles. This is traced back to Saint Peter who was originally entrusted with the Church.
Our interpretation of the Bible then is guarded by and guided by the Church. We are free to personally interpret many things as they are not binding to the faith, probably similarily to you. But there are certain things that are structured and kept uniform. As an example we have to believe that Revelations is part of the Word of God.
I will see if I can write a little more later on today,
God Bless
Scylla
I have often heard things against “religion” as if it was a bad word, I appreciate your honesty in your response. Actually for the evangelical church I used to attend then would sneer at that word, even if I pointed out it’s meaning.
Now in regards to authority, I do believe you in your beliefs being based on the Bible, but in order to arrive at those beliefs they are based on the Watchtowers intepretation, or else you would be somewhere else. This was originally interpreted by Charles Taze Russell (though there is rumor it might be someone else) and handed down, guided by the Watchtower.
(kinda similar to what I will describe below)
As for Pope Benedict, he received his authority by being the successor of the previous Pope. As Pope he is entrusted to guard the understanding of the faith as passed down by the apostles. This is traced back to Saint Peter who was originally entrusted with the Church.
Our interpretation of the Bible then is guarded by and guided by the Church. We are free to personally interpret many things as they are not binding to the faith, probably similarily to you. But there are certain things that are structured and kept uniform. As an example we have to believe that Revelations is part of the Word of God.
I will see if I can write a little more later on today,
God Bless
Scylla
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
No, Christ formed the Church.
Ah, but who deemed what was authentic? If, as you say, scripture alone is sufficient then how was the Bible made when the Bible did not yet exisit? You seem to ignore this period of time and you seem to ignore how the Bible came to be.
Now your just being obstinate.
Just admit it, you are here to turn people from the Church and for no other reason.
No, individual books were written and inspired by God. It was an Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church that gathered all the inspired books together into the book we now call the Bible.
God did not gather the books together and hand them to man. The Holy Spirit guided the bishops of the Catholic Church in assembling them together into the Bible. The Catholic Bible.
The Bible you use is missing books, God inspired books. Your scripture is incomplete.
I think I have had enough of this running around in circles with you.
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tommy4321
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Let’s see what the Poll I put up tells us…
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tommy4321
Guest
OK, here is how I ended up posting here. I am not a forum person. I resigned from a large Catholic Parish and was a senior member of their Finance Council and led many volunteer projects. My resignation letter was disturbing to the Parish and senior members forwarded it to an unnamed organization most of you here are familiar with. I was taken aback by the comparison with the Holy One Peter being compared with priest molestors as being equivalent to them as being hypocritical in Antioch and looked up the web-site where this barage of two dozen negative brochures came from.
I learned it is not right to wittness online. Thats right I will say it again that I learned it is not right to wittness to Catholics online and question their faith. Wittnessing is a personal thing you do in person and no benefit can be gained online other then from a knowledge stand point of the others faith. It is not possible to have a true Bible Study online, it must be face-to-face to be effective.
The exception I see is if someone is having relationship problems where two different faiths are involved or if they have no faith at all, where a forum might be helpful. I found that the sincere folks with strong faith hang here and there is no influencing this group as they are here to help others like you are David. It then becomes as one person wittnessing to another who is wittnessing to them, nothing to gain for either. I am not strong enough to make an online arguement to influence ones fatih. People are free agents who discern for themselves what is right and wrong. Plus, those strong in faith can discern from what I write and I do beieve there is some truth to what I speak when I see that my posts cause some disturbance which if they were real off from the truth the anger would not become apparent.
I also learned that by posting online one is subjecting themselves to some evil influences that can come into your household. For instance, tension runs higher in my home when I am posting and peace and calm enters it when I do daily Bible studies and don’t subject myself to influences from other faiths. At first I was here to wittness and will admit I have learned a lot about the Catholic faith and I do not in anyway see this group not being the bulk of the group who will gain salvation. In fact I have come to learn for myself that many (perhaps the bulk) will be in the ressurection that are Catholics, but I do sincerely believe that much of what I have learned from the Wittnesses will be revealed prior to the conclusion of the current system of things including that Jehovah God wants praise to Him alone (through his Son and for example not through Saints ect…) and other issues brought up earlier in this thread.
In my opinion Jesus Christ is the strong founder of Christianity and is the only human (with the exception of Adam) whom their seed is from the Holy Spirit. Jesus lived with his Father since the beginning of the world we see in Genesis and has been appointed by his Father to be the ruler of Heaven we read in Revelations. Since Catholicism is a form of Christianity it can also be said that Jesus was the founder of the Catholic Church, but more in a broader universe is the founder of Christianity.
So far the Poll I put up is in favor that the Bible is written by Gods inspired words and not by Catholics.
I do appreciated your time here. We both have nothing to gain by posting and both receive blessings from Jesus in caring so much about him by spending our days discussing him and what is pleasing to his Father. Peace and Love, tommy
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wcknight
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Tommy.
Don’t you find it just a wee bit arrogant that some folks will rely on their own interpretation of scriptures as opposed to the Church’s ???
After all the Catholic Church has been studying and interpreting scriptures for hundreds of years and with thousands of full time professional theologians.
The Church knows every verse and passage inside out and has explored all the many possible interpretations to come up with definitive meaning and proper perspective.
Granted you may be a very bright guy, I just think it is awfully presumptuous of you to think that for one moment you are wiser and more knowledgeable than all the Church scholars combined.
Yes, I know you “think”, you are being led by the Holy Spirit. BUT is it not far more likely that you are being led by your own self pride and arrogance ??? Just some food for thought.
Christ’s Peace
Don’t you find it just a wee bit arrogant that some folks will rely on their own interpretation of scriptures as opposed to the Church’s ???
After all the Catholic Church has been studying and interpreting scriptures for hundreds of years and with thousands of full time professional theologians.
The Church knows every verse and passage inside out and has explored all the many possible interpretations to come up with definitive meaning and proper perspective.
Granted you may be a very bright guy, I just think it is awfully presumptuous of you to think that for one moment you are wiser and more knowledgeable than all the Church scholars combined.
Yes, I know you “think”, you are being led by the Holy Spirit. BUT is it not far more likely that you are being led by your own self pride and arrogance ??? Just some food for thought.
Christ’s Peace
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E.E.N.S
Guest
With all respect, Tommy, God’s Truth is NOT a democracy.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
Anyways, the poll is so flawed that what ever the out come, it will mean nothing.
It just shows the ignorace of History and of Christianity.
The poll is titled “Who wrote the Bible, God or Man?”
Well, no one wrote the Bible as the Bible is nothing more than a collection of books.
Now those books were written by men, but inspired by God. God did not write the books though men, that is God did not take over the men and use them to write the books.
The Bible Canon was codified by the bishops of the Catholic Church during an Ecumenical Council guided by the Holy Spirit.
There were many, many books, some of which I have named in this very thread, that were determined not to be inspired and so they were not included in the Canon of the Bible.
To deny this is to deny the Truth, as it is a fact of History that you can actually look up.
Before this Ecumenical Council there was no Bible.
This is the number 1 killer for all those Bible only Christians, that and the fact that there Bibles are missing books and that no where in the Bible does it say anything about sola scriptura.
How true!tommy4321:
God’s Truth is NOT a democracy.
Anyways, the poll is so flawed that what ever the out come, it will mean nothing.
It just shows the ignorace of History and of Christianity.
The poll is titled “Who wrote the Bible, God or Man?”
Well, no one wrote the Bible as the Bible is nothing more than a collection of books.
Now those books were written by men, but inspired by God. God did not write the books though men, that is God did not take over the men and use them to write the books.
The Bible Canon was codified by the bishops of the Catholic Church during an Ecumenical Council guided by the Holy Spirit.
There were many, many books, some of which I have named in this very thread, that were determined not to be inspired and so they were not included in the Canon of the Bible.
To deny this is to deny the Truth, as it is a fact of History that you can actually look up.
Before this Ecumenical Council there was no Bible.
This is the number 1 killer for all those Bible only Christians, that and the fact that there Bibles are missing books and that no where in the Bible does it say anything about sola scriptura.
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tommy4321
Guest
Hi McKnight:
Not really, I am studying with the Jehovah 's Wittnesses and there are 6 million in this world-wide organization who share these similar views.
I will admit I like your persona better here then when you wrote me on page one in this thread when I was suspended and could not respont the following “Is tommy comparing his rejection to Jesus’ rejection…pleeeeeeeeese poor baby” - sort of hurt me feelings dude
Amazing as it may seem other facets of religion experience the Holy Spirit and it is not just isolated to those following Catholicism. Here is my testimony of the experience I had after learning Jehovah’s name and studying with the Wittnesses I think you may enjoy reading.
Since I learned that the true God has a name several things have happened in my life that has demonstrated to me that there is a true God. Signs begin to happen, when I went into another parish where I learned that it is not within the norm of my former religion to use God’s name from a young priest named Father Neil, I told him God is a Spirit and you can’t see him. He said that sometimes you can see sun rays and rainbows and that is God showing you his beauty through nature, his creation.
He didn’t know much about the divine name and would not acknowledge that the name appears in many church entrances in Europe. I drove home over a small summit and it was the very end of the longest storm we had this year. I saw the most spectacular sun rays shining through the clouds that I got a tear in my eye and the goose pimples realizing that through nature, this may be God showing his spirit to me and the timing was amazing. This may sound funny, but signs began happening this same day.
A few months later, my old high school friend’s daughter died and he had no faith. I sent him material on God’s name and how it worked for me to praise his name through Jesus and sent the New Testament on CD’s, he now believes in God and Jesus. I felt God called me to do this mission and there are certain times he calls when there is something to be accomplished.
He had me humble myself to my Sister and Brother-in-law to tell them words I could not have put together to help put their marriage back on track. He has taught me not to love money as when I was stuck in the material world (many of my Catholic friends had this competition going to see who get get the bigger Boat). I have since found other ways to get rich. By learning to pray to Jehovah, through Jesus has also made my family a lot closer. What works for one does not always work for all.
The point I make on the personal name is really hard to express here over the Internet, but it has had a fantastic outcome for me and the family.
I do believe the Holy Spirit has enormous power among all who believe that Christ came as the Messiah and reaches beyond just Catholics to include other religions who believe in Jesus and the true God.
Put yourself in my shoes for just a minute. I am making an arguement to a group of Christians who belong to another organization and am only one on this side. If this was about me, would there be so many others who would have interest to open the thread if I haven’t sparked some curiosity about the Wittnesses beliefs? I believe they follow the Bible closer than any orgaanization I have check into. I have read other posts here and this is about the least popular place on the Web a Bible Student of the Wittnesses could choose to make posts. When I originally started this post I thought that perhaps one soul out there might read this and find some of these truths and it would help them from being led astray from the “man” in the robe. But, I am now realizing for the most part it is the same crowd in here trying to save those who may doubt Catholicism like I was initially trying to do as a Wittness Bible student
And, I am now coming out and saying I am sorry if I have offended anyone here, but thanks for reading my posts as I am not sure why you have? tommy
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catsrus
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So, what you’re saying is that you came here to convert us papists to the inaccurate “theology” of the jws. I’m sure you have arrived at the conclusion by now that we know our faith well and that your “witnessing” techniques and seeds will find no fertile ground here.
As I’ve mentioned before, I spent 18 months in a book study with jws and attended many meetings. As soon as I began to question the “theology” and the history (scant and convoluted as it is) of the jws, the cold shoulder was turned towards me. Thank God!
You yourself have been “led astray by the man in a Brooklyn suit”.
Read the history. Come home where Christ’s truth (not the wt’s truth) is a constant presence.
After re-reading this post, I realize I sound harsh. I do apologize for that - however - I sincerely do not know why you would believe you could come onto a Catholic forum and lead a Catholic away from Christ’s Church.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
This is the very reason why you should be suspended once again, well that and the fact that your original user account is suspended and you worked your way around that.
But the fact that the only reason you have come here is to lead people away from the True Church of Christ to some made up religion that did not exist until the 19th century.
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tommy4321
Guest
Catholic Answers came to me, I didn’t come to them. But I do admire how faithful you are here to religion. I tip my hat to you. The Wittnesses are good clean people. I mean that they are literally clean. I also find that they are in the Truth. You ought to come to another Kingdom Hall meeting and give it another chance.So, what you’re saying is that you came here to convert us papists to the inaccurate “theology” of the jws. I’m sure you have arrived at the conclusion by now that we know our faith well and that your “witnessing” techniques and seeds will find no fertile ground here.
As I’ve mentioned before, I spent 18 months in a book study with jws and attended many meetings. As soon as I began to question the “theology” and the history (scant and convoluted as it is) of the jws, the cold shoulder was turned towards me. Thank God!
You yourself have been “led astray by the man in a Brooklyn suit”.
Read the history. Come home where Christ’s truth (not the wt’s truth) is a constant presence.
After re-reading this post, I realize I sound harsh. I do apologize for that - however - I sincerely do not know why you would believe you could come onto a Catholic forum and lead a Catholic away from Christ’s Church.
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tommy4321
Guest
Catholic Answers came to me, I didn’t come to them. But I do admire how faithful you are here to religion. I tip my hat to you. The Wittnesses are good clean people. I mean that they are literally clean. I also find that they are in the Truth. You ought to come to another Kingdom Hall meeting and give it another chance.So, what you’re saying is that you came here to convert us papists to the inaccurate “theology” of the jws. I’m sure you have arrived at the conclusion by now that we know our faith well and that your “witnessing” techniques and seeds will find no fertile ground here.
As I’ve mentioned before, I spent 18 months in a book study with jws and attended many meetings. As soon as I began to question the “theology” and the history (scant and convoluted as it is) of the jws, the cold shoulder was turned towards me. Thank God!
You yourself have been “led astray by the man in a Brooklyn suit”.
Read the history. Come home where Christ’s truth (not the wt’s truth) is a constant presence.
After re-reading this post, I realize I sound harsh. I do apologize for that - however - I sincerely do not know why you would believe you could come onto a Catholic forum and lead a Catholic away from Christ’s Church.
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