Revelations...are we ready...

[wcknight]

I don’t know enough about the JW s to say anything about them and I’m not really all that curious as to what makes you think your faith any better than ours.

So a couple of your mislead Catholic friends got into a competition to see who can buy the bigger boat. IF anyone thought for a second that this in any way exemplifies Catholic theology, they are would be greatly mistaken.

What little I’ve heard about JWs is that you dont’ believe in the divinity of Jesus. That right there makes your faith unacceptable to me and to 99.99 percent of the folks on this forum. All the scriptures, revelations and teachings we believe in, point to His being exactly who He claimed to be.

After almost 2000 years of Catholic faith, revelations, scriptures, mystical encounters, apparitions etc all of which support the divinity of Jesus, what is it that the JW’s have to refute this fundamental belief. Are you saying that all these folks were 100% wrong, that some sort of on going conspiracy is being played on billions of folks ???

What evidence do you have that Jesus is not who He says He is ??? other than your gut feeling while watching a beautiful sunset…

 

[tommy4321]

wcknight:

I don’t know enough about the JW s to say anything about them and I’m not really all that curious as to what makes you think your faith any better than ours.

So a couple of your mislead Catholic friends got into a competition to see who can buy the bigger boat. IF anyone thought for a second that this in any way exemplifies Catholic theology, they are would be greatly mistaken.

What little I’ve heard about JWs is that you dont’ believe in the divinity of Jesus. That right there makes your faith unacceptable to me and to 99.99 percent of the folks on this forum. All the scriptures, revelations and teachings we believe in, point to His being exactly who He claimed to be.

After almost 2000 years of Catholic faith, revelations, scriptures, mystical encounters, apparitions etc all of which support the divinity of Jesus, what is it that the JW’s have to refute this fundamental belief. Are you saying that all these folks were 100% wrong, that some sort of on going conspiracy is being played on billions of folks ???

What evidence do you have that Jesus is not who He says He is ??? other than your gut feeling while watching a beautiful sunset…

I support the Divinity of Jesus Christ the Messiah who is the “Son” of God sent by his Father to save us. Christ did not come from man and is the utmost Divine!

I think about his commandments of love and praise to his Father ever waking moment of my day. I underscore that Jesus asked we give praise and honor to his Father through him and getting to Him is only possible through Jesus, the ruler in Heaven. Not through Saints (even the pope, a man) or any form of man whose seed is from Adman and all have sin.

Jesus was perfect as his seed is from the Holy Spirit. I love Jesus, the ruler of Heaven, who we pray through and please understand how Divine Jesus is to me.

If you folks are getting i bit tired of hearing from me let this post fade and I will quitly go away because I don’t want to make anyone unhappy. P.S. my posts here are not for the posters but the guests. Peace and Love, tommy

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tommy4321:

Catholic Answers came to me, I didn’t come to them.

So are you trying to tell us that someone from Catholic Answers came to you and asked you to come here and try to lead people away from the Truth into error?

 

[Prometheus1974]

For the sake of “brevity”:

“NB” = statement is a belief found nowhere found in the Bible
“INC” = statement is also factually incorrect.

tommy4321:

As I promised here are a few reasons to trust the Bible:

The Bible fills our need for wise direction.

NB, also INC: how wisely directed are 36,000 Protestant denoms? Needs authority to interpret correctly.

The knowledge of God can lead to everlasting life.

Blanket statement, true but has nothing to do with Bible specifically. Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the knowledge of God?

The Bible covers 3,500 years of human creation and it’s Words are still valid today. Bible reflects a keen understanding that applies to every generation of mankind.

I grouped these statements out of order because they say essentially the same thing. NB. I’m not sure what you mean by “the Bible covers”. As a historical document, it is much more limited: only covers at most about 1,000 years, only deals with a very specific group of people. There is no mention of, for example, the civilizations in China and North America. If you are talking in a more spiritual sense, yes the bible contains some pithy truths. But so do the teachings of Confucius, Bhudha, Sun Tzu, and the accumulated works of Shakespeare. That does not mean I should trust in them. It does not prove they are inspired works.

Most books written this long ago have no application today.

NB. This would seem to be an argument to distrust the Bible. Also, doesn’t elevate the Bible above any of the writings mentioned above. The age of the Bible is completely irrelevant - if I found a manuscript older than the Bible, would that make it more Trust-worthy?

All scripture is inspired by God.

Irrelevant, unless you believe the Catholic Church has the authority to determine what is Scripture. St. Paul never mentions the Bible, certainly not the Gospels which were written after St. Paul’s letters.

The OT and the NT blend together and complement each other to create a harmonious theme. There is a common thread from Genesis to Revelations.

NB. But I agree. Common threads. And the most harmonious music will still sound discordant unless you have a qualified director making sure that the instruments come in at the same time with the correct tempo…

Jesus read the Bible and quoted from it.

INC. Jesus NEVER read or quoted from the Bible, only from Jewish scriptures some of which appear in the OT. The Bible did not exist until almost 400 years later. The Bible actually quotes from Jesus… if you believe the Catholic Church that assembled it. Bible does not = scriptures quoted by Jesus!

Scriptures are beneficial for disciplining in righteousness.

Ok… if you understand them correctly.

[QUIOTE]The Bible tells us what to do and what pitfalls to avoid in our everyday life.

NB & INC. The Bible tells us nothing. The Bible is not a person capable of speech. The Bible is simply a collection of (inspired) writings which contain Truth; how to apply Truth is a matter of interpretation. o/w we would read in the Holy Bible Appendix & Definitions that the beast of revelation is…

Jesus provided instruction in how to pray in the Bible.

Ok. And Mohammed provides instruction on how to pray in the Qu’ran (apologies to anybody Islamic for my spelling).

 

[Prometheus1974]

…Continued…

The Bible is scientifically accurate for example when the prophet Isaiah 40:22 referred to the sky as a circle 3,000 years ago when it was accepted the world was flat. (I know you like the sky Smiwvol).

NB, INC. The Bible is not scientifically accurate. According to the Bible, the world was created in 6 days, it has four corners, and we are all the genetic descendants of ONE pair of parents. These are statements which are not scientific. There isn’t a shred of scientific proof for any of these statements.

It is a mistake to think of the Bible as scientific. It was never meant to be understood or interpreted that way.

Historians nearly always exagerate their victories and hide thier defeats. Not in the Bible, we see defeats and mistakes (1Kings 14;25, Isiah 36:1, Luke 3: 1-2).

I didn’t realize historians were in the habit of fighting wars . This statement is probably untrue. I would be offended if I were a historian. I also fail to see how it is relevent.

The Bible not only shows prophecies but how they were fullfilled which were not from man but from God.Isaiah’s prophecy about the fall of Babylon was recorded 200 years before Babylon was conquered.

Actually, most of the OT Bible was originally written down during the Babilonian captivity. We don’t have earlier records surviving which show us texts that predate the fulfilment of prophecy. This would be necessary to demonstrate that the writers in the 5th century didn’t just add to Isaiah’s prophecy.

btw, if prophecy fulfillment is an important indicator to you, doesn’t it bother you that jw prophecies regarding end times have failed uniformly?

Zechariah 11:12 fortold that Jesus would be betrayed for 30 sheckles of silver. Yes, that is right exactly 30 sheckles. Psalms 22:18 said that the soldiers would cast lots for Jesus’ garments. Hundreds of facts were written about the promised coming of the Messiah.

OT scripture, all of which certainly points to Jesus according to a Christian interpretation. The Jewish people evidently don’t accept this evidence as conclusive. This also still does not establish the Bible as Truth. AT best, the Bible contains some truth.

The Bible survived more controversy then any other book and there has been 6 billion copies printed.

NB. Also what is the source for the 6 billion figure? - hopefully not the same source that told you the Catholic Church spent “a billion dollars” dealing with the child abuse scandal. May want to ask your source for proof… also might wonder why they need to make up figures like this…

In case you are wondering, the annual budget of the Vatican is about $175 million (Its published on their website). Assuming that they could drastically reduce their expenses (most of which involve charitable obligations - the CC is after all the greatest charitable organization in history) and come up with $25,000,000 per year, it would still take 40 years to reach the billion dollar mark!!

Micah 5:2 foretold that Christ would be born in Bethlehem. Should not this build our trust in what the Bible promises?

No, it should give us a good indication that Jesus is the promised Messiah. As was intended. And that the Catholic Church was guided by the Holy Spirit when it correctly decided that Micah should be in the Bible.

God cannot lie. Jesus’ main cammand was to love one another.

I agree. Fail to see relevancy, unless you are assuming the Bible is God’s word. That is begging the question. Yes Jesus said some very nice things… see Confucius et al. above.

Yet, there are some many mistakes we make everyday by getting mad in people in our cars that are mere misunderstandings and if we applied Bible principles people would be nicer to one another.

I agree. But the same may be said about the central writings of most major religions.

 

[Prometheus1974]

…continued… hope i’m not breaking any length rules…

The point behind Christianity is to be reasonable and not argumentative, which we also learn from the Bible.

NB, INC. Like Jesus with the moneylenders in the Temple? Also, read Luke: 51-53

I thought the purpose of Christianity was to proclaim the Good News of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, to learn His Truth, to recieve His Grace, and conform ourselves to His Will.

Bible knowledge really benefits people 1 Peter 3:1-2. Bible study brings rich blessings Psalms 19:11 The Bible is God’s inspired word and we can trust it.

NB and INC. The Bible is not mentioned anywhere in 1 Peter or Psalms - particularly since large parts of it (the whole NT) did not exist when Peter or for that matter Psalms was written.

I don’t doubt that you are a sincere and Godly person; please do not misconstrue my response to your post. I understand that these may be the reasons why you believe that the Bible is inspired and I respect that - however, I merely wish to point out that these beliefs are neither from the Bible nor wholly factual. It seems that you are saying (my gross paraphrase) “I believe the Bible because it feels like a good book and I really like it.” Nothing wrong with that. But (for me) you have failed to explain why you TRUST in it beyond a feeling.

Put this another way: You say the OT is inspired because Jesus quoted it and fulfilled its prophecies. But your evidence for this is the NT. You have not yet provided a shred of evicdence that the NT is inspired in any way. What gave the Catholic Church the right to include the NT with the Scriptures that the OT quoted when they assembled the Bible?

Perhaps if it would help you to understand why I believe the Bible to be the inspired Word. In brief:

Jesus Christ is a real historical person who was crucified, died, and then reappeared according to his disciples’ claims (Josephus and other ancient historians, in addition to the Gospels.) He left his disciples a set of teachings and traditions which they defended with their lives and passed on to their successors - we have a variety of documents including the NT, and the letters and writings of the Church Fathers dating back to the first century and the time of the Apostles which describe for us how the Church was formed, what the Apostles and their successors taught, how they suffered, and what, if any texts the used to teach and during the Mass. During the second, third, and fourth centuries a series of heresies appeared, accompanied by writings that were not authentic. At this time the Bishops of the Church assembled, with the Pope’s blessing, and sorted through all the documents and tradition that was available, and guided by the third person of the Trinity determined which books should be in the OT and which in the NT. If they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, there is no guarantee that books were not left out of the Bible, and no guarantee that the Bible would not contain false teaching. Therefore my belief in the veracity of the Bible is rooted in the belief that the people who selected the books were inspired to do so. It would be completely illogical and arbitrary to assume that the bishops of the third century (who, incidentally, affirmed the reality of the Trinity) were perfectly guided by the Holy Spirit and the bishops of the 20th century are not. But that is precisely what you have to believe if you want to maintain that you trust the Bible, but doubt the Catholic Church. You can’t have it both ways and remain logical.

God Bless!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Prometheus1974:

For the sake of “brevity”:

“NB” = statement is a belief found nowhere found in the Bible
“INC” = statement is also factually incorrect.

Most books written this long ago have no application today.

NB. This would seem to be an argument to distrust the Bible. Also, doesn’t elevate the Bible above any of the writings mentioned above. The age of the Bible is completely irrelevant - if I found a manuscript older than the Bible, would that make it more Trust-worthy?

I would dispute your NB here, or at least say NB and INC as you have in other places.

“Most books” is a very subjective term. I could say Most books written today have no application today.

It is a fact that many books written long ago have applications today.

Xenophon’s Converstaions of Socrates. The works of Aristotle and Plato. The Art of War by Sun Tzu. Machiavelli’s The Prince. All the writings of the Fathers of the Church and the Desert Fathers.

That’s just a few off the top of my head.

 

[catsrus]

Prometheus1974,

Great post! I “covet” your ability in apologetics.
:clapping:

 

[At_His_Feet]

The Wittnesses are a religion and their name appears in the Bible
According to Acts 1:8, who’s Witnesses are Christians to be?
**
All the Wittnesses follow is what is written in the Bible**
Please show me one scripture in which Christians call uninvited on the home of an unbeliever, or are commanded to do so. Please show me a scripture where Christians ask for (“suggest”, “mention”) donations for literature from unbelievers. Please show a scripture where Christians are required to write down the number of hours they spend talking to other people per month and then turn it in where it is tabulated and kept on record .

The NWT has restored Jehovah’s name to the original Hebrew writings in the OT using Jehovah’s name (English translation of the Hebrew name Yahweh).
No, it was already appeared in other Bibles. It appeared in the 1901 American Stnadard Version, Darby’s Bible, and as Yahweh in Rotherham’s Translation, and others. The anonymous translators of the NWT went far beyond these other translations by putting “Jehovah” 237 times in the New Testament, when there is NOT ONE Greek manuscript, out of the thousands in existence, to support it.
**
Cross and has been replaced with Torture Stake ect.**
Then the translators of the NWT must know more than the Biblical scholar Jerome, who studied and worked in the Holy Land, who lived much closer to the time of the apostles, who’s work the Vulgate the NWT reference edition sites as a reference, and about whom there have been favorable articles in the WT magazine - because Jerome translated the greek “stauros” with the Latin “crux”

Jesus provided instruction in how to pray in the Bible.
Yes - When his disciples asked him “Lord teach us to pray” (Luke 11:1), it seems if there was ever a time to promote the use of “Jehovah” or “Yahweh” in prayer (“make sure you use the name Jehovah” - as JWs say), this would have been the time to do it. Did he? What was the title of address that he told his discipile to use for God in what is known as The Lord’s Prayer? (Matthew 6:9-13)

 

[tommy4321]

ByzCath:

So are you trying to tell us that someone from Catholic Answers came to you and asked you to come here and try to lead people away from the Truth into error?

Yes, I received a written letter from someone from the Apologetics Department and a stack of brochures. No one will be led away from their faith but think of this.

We learn there is one true God. But then we learn from a second century council that there are “three” Gods, but it is a mystery how they are one. Don’t you think that someone may have questioned what Moses wrote about one true God? Wouldn’t there have been a prophecy that would have foretold us that there would soon be three Gods, all in one. Why wasn’t there three Gods in the times of the Old Testament.

There is One God, known as the Almighty One, the Son of God who came from the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, who is God’s active force. How did the Holy Spirit become a God. There is one God as we were told. Do you remember hearing in the church, one true God. So why wo we have three all wrapped in one as a mystery? See what I mean about false teachings through religion and councils? I guess the answer would probably be no and we can go in circles, but his what I believe. Peace and Love, tommy

 

[tommy4321]

Prometheus1974,

Great post! I “covet” your ability in apologetics.
:clapping:

I’m glad you guys didn’t want me to go. Were getting to be real good friends. Lots of love to share.

I’m in the front seat of my car with a low bettery on the lap top. I have lots to say about At His Feets and Proms post. See ya tommorow. May the love of Jesus be with you all. tommy

 

[tommy4321]

ByzCath:

This is the very reason why you should be suspended once again, well that and the fact that your original user account is suspended and you worked your way around that.

But the fact that the only reason you have come here is to lead people away from the True Church of Christ to some made up religion that did not exist until the 19th century.

Hi David: OK on the home PC now. Please understand it takes a few hours to respond to a multitude of questions and I have a lot to say tommorow. I cannot talk too much about the letter you were asking me about to be respectful to Catholic Answers, I hope you understand.

Before I respond tommorow to At His Feet and Prom I wanted to ask you two questions. If you love Jesus as much as I think you do, why are you wishing a suspension upon me?. Didn’t Jesus ask to look for the good in people at to try and show love to your neighbor. (in other words, love the people you hate).

Second, why are you worried that I will lead some away from the faith of the Catholic faith? Wouldn’t you agree that most people here have pretty thick skin and cannot be swayed too easy. Have a good night and I will devout a few hours tommorow with time permitting between the job. Thanks for apparently wanting to continue our discussion. tommy

 

[allhers]

tommy4321:

…

We learn there is one true God. But then we learn from a second century council that there are “three” Gods…

What??? Can you let us in on what 2nd century council you learned that there were three Gods?? …
See what I mean about false teachings … :yup: (yup).

Do you even remember the Mass tommy? Maybe you ought to go and listen, and make sure you really listen. All prayers of the Catholic Church are directed to God.
I would be interested in knowing what you remember about how Jesus instructed us to pray and to who also. I will wait patiently for that response.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tommy4321:

Hi David: OK on the home PC now. Please understand it takes a few hours to respond to a multitude of questions and I have a lot to say tommorow. I cannot talk too much about the letter you were asking me about to be respectful to Catholic Answers, I hope you understand.

Before I respond tommorow to At His Feet and Prom I wanted to ask you two questions. If you love Jesus as much as I think you do, why are you wishing a suspension upon me?. Didn’t Jesus ask to look for the good in people at to try and show love to your neighbor. (in other words, love the people you hate).

Second, why are you worried that I will lead some away from the faith of the Catholic faith? Wouldn’t you agree that most people here have pretty thick skin and cannot be swayed too easy. Have a good night and I will devout a few hours tommorow with time permitting between the job. Thanks for apparently wanting to continue our discussion. tommy

Main reasons would be that you can confuse those new to the faith as well as mislead others.

You blatant misstate Catholic Teachings, such as the Trinity, which every Christian religion holds to. Yes, the JW’s are not Christians as they deny the basics of the Christian Faith.

You also seem to ignore History, or attempt to rewrite it. Such as your comment that Jesus read from the Bible. Also in how the books of the Bible were collected together and why certain books are in it and others are not.

You also make some very strange comments, such as the scientific accuracy of the Bible when it is not a scientific work, it is a spiritual work. You also claim it is a historical work covering 3500 years of man, yet it isn’t.

Let me also get this straight, I do not hate you but I do fear for those who you might astray.

 

[Loboto-Me]

What Tommy doesn’t realize is that the process of becoming a JW is a slow and almost imperceptible “brainwash”. What he perceives as kind and generous fellowship members are actually people who are entrusted to “keep an eye on him”. Wonder if he noticed that they are always at his beck and call? It’s a form of becoming trusted by him. They gather 'round a new candidate much like the Scientologists do their candidates. They make it so that the new candidate feels that he doesn’t need anyone else in his life but his JW “friends”.

The candidate becomes dependent on the other JWs and slowly loses touch of the old friends at their council (they are a bad influence on your spiritual life and such things is what they council the newbie). It’s a very slow process… eventually, they have no other friends other than each other. So, the threat of disfellowshipping would ruin the whole network of their life (this keeps them all in “check”).

I know all this because my Brother in Law is a witness. He goes a bit against the grain, by smoking once in a while (oh no! He could get disfellowshipped for that). Anyway, they help each other out, and really seem like they are looking out for each by hiring fellow witnesses to do jobs for each other, or doing things for free for each other (among “friends” naturally). It’s all about developing an influencial and dependent structure around the Hall and the JW religion, so that they can be easily controlled by the elders who are controlled by the Watch Tower … (I wonder why the call it the WATCH tower… could it be because big brother is always “watching”?)

 

[tommy4321]

E.E.N.S.:

With all respect, Tommy, God’s Truth is NOT a democracy.

I am sorry it took me a day or two to respond here E.N.N.S… I respect what you put up here and think a great deal of you as a real sincere person.

Generally speaking it would not be right to start a Poll to learn what others think about a discussion. But I do think it is OK here because I have put two polls up to demonstrate two “broad” view that neither one of us wouldn’t get beyond the circle we were stuck in without (name removed by moderator)ut.

First, McNight claimed that Catholics didn’t see Jesus and God as distinct and the Poll, without going into all the details about the Trinity did express an overall sentiment that the Catholic view of the Trinity does in fact view Jesus and God as distinct and the overall point I have been stressing is how praise to Jehovah God has been lost with the concept of three Gods combined into one from the second century council of men who decided this for us.

Second, ByzCath and I could not agree that God wrote or gave us the Bible and even though there was some controversy on the wording of the poll, the overall acceptance was that God wrote the Bible with various interpertations. Again, my point here is about how praise is taken away from God and here assigned to religion. It is my opinion that all praise, honor and glory goes to our God Jehovah, an exacting jealous God who as our Creator demands this praise and worship, especially something so sensitive as who is credited for the creation of the Bible. I wanted to show proof that there are others out there that will unconditionally agree that the Bible came from God free of assignment of this feat to religion, councils or men.

I have also noticed a few patterns that I want to point. I noticed also that if some of my points seem convincing, it seems like I am barraged with a whole baggage of questions attempted to get me to respond to all of them (many already answered earlier in this thread) so I am done away with and banned. Then negative remarks come out from a different group after being banned and then it is said that the Wittnesses are a cult, which I have a nice piece put together on this I will put up when the circle pattern goes through it’s cycle again.

Yet, while I was banned for a month I hang out elsewhere on a few religious comparative forum and found it to be less argumentative in general and there were real personal discussions about favorite music lyrics, places one has traveled and a great deal of focus on more personal views and you didn’t see the same ol’ Trinity discussion. I will get to the other posts tommorow but had to think about yours for a day. thanks for your posting here on this thread, tommy

 

[tommy4321]

allhers:

tommy4321:

…

We learn there is one true God. But then we learn from a second century council that there are “three” Gods…

What??? Can you let us in on what 2nd century council you learned that there were three Gods?? …
See what I mean about false teachings … :yup: (yup).

Do you even remember the Mass tommy? Maybe you ought to go and listen, and make sure you really listen. All prayers of the Catholic Church are directed to God.
I would be interested in knowing what you remember about how Jesus instructed us to pray and to who also. I will wait patiently for that response.

OK, you are right. The Lords Prayer is a prayer to the Father, through his Son.

However, remember the Hail Mary? This is a prayer that is not through Jesus. Is the Hail Mary a Catholic prayer and if so, why is it not directed through Jesus to God? Doesn’t it say Holy Mary mother of God pray for us Sinners? (is that a prayer to God through Jesus) Wasn’t it Jesus himself that said the only way to get to his Father was through him.

Therefore, is a prayer to a Saint heard? How about the old Catholic prayer to St. Jude? How about how Jesus didn’t want us to mumble prayers over and over, then what about the rosary prayers I had to do during my years going through Catholic school. Is this not repeating prayers over and over as opposed to speaking to God, through Jesus after the Lord’s prayer like was written in Matthew Chapter 6. I hope this doesn’t seem offensive and I will tell you that I really think most Catholics are very sincere in prayer and don’t mean to be hurtful at all in my comments. My point was that in my opinion there is not three Gods in a mystery all in one. There is the true God (the God of Isreal), God’s Son, Jesus who in the human King in Heaven and our grand Messiah and the Christ that was foretold would be sent from heaven and the Holy Spirit, which is God’s active force, just one God, like Moses taught us. There was a second century Council that formed a Catholic opinion creating the Trinity a few hundred years after Jesus’ death that a Catholic might be able to tell you more about? Peace and Love tommy

 

[tommy4321]

Loboto-Me:

What Tommy doesn’t realize is that the process of becoming a JW is a slow and almost imperceptible “brainwash”. What he perceives as kind and generous fellowship members are actually people who are entrusted to “keep an eye on him”. Wonder if he noticed that they are always at his beck and call? It’s a form of becoming trusted by him. They gather 'round a new candidate much like the Scientologists do their candidates. They make it so that the new candidate feels that he doesn’t need anyone else in his life but his JW “friends”.

The candidate becomes dependent on the other JWs and slowly loses touch of the old friends at their council (they are a bad influence on your spiritual life and such things is what they council the newbie). It’s a very slow process… eventually, they have no other friends other than each other. So, the threat of disfellowshipping would ruin the whole network of their life (this keeps them all in “check”).

I know all this because my Brother in Law is a witness. He goes a bit against the grain, by smoking once in a while (oh no! He could get disfellowshipped for that). Anyway, they help each other out, and really seem like they are looking out for each by hiring fellow witnesses to do jobs for each other, or doing things for free for each other (among “friends” naturally). It’s all about developing an influencial and dependent structure around the Hall and the JW religion, so that they can be easily controlled by the elders who are controlled by the Watch Tower … (I wonder why the call it the WATCH tower… could it be because big brother is always “watching”?)

I really can see how one might see this, but I would not say they are brainwashers and it sounds like maybe this is working for your brother? Maybe it’s not too? They do have pretty clean standards and I would believe it would be hard for a smoker to really fit in. How does your bother like it and does it work for him?

I find that they are really in the truth and I can also see how the Wittnesses may not work for others. It really comes down to that some may feel a calling to want to be one of God’s personal Wittnesses and they may benefit from it. It sounds kind of like were at the “cult” part of the discussion again (which they are far from!!! no human leader!!! Jesus is their leader as opposed to a man. Yes there are overseers I have spoken with twice in five years but the Hall runs itself without any clergymen leaders and they rotate speaker from visiting congregations and there is person (name removed by moderator)ut with a microphone which I find lively. Sorry about this but I have to say it, I find the Catholic Mass boring, yes, boring with the same prayers each week (sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my opinion is all.

Here is what I think about the cult discussion we are now going into.Some define a sect to mean a group that has broken away from an established religion. Others apply the term to that who follows a leader. Wittnesses were not an offshoot of any religion and include people from all walks of life that have jobes like you and I. They do not look upon any human, only Jesus as their leader.

A cult is a religion that is said to be unorthodox or that emphasizes devotion according to a ritual. Our group has been a kind loving group of true Christians that really care about us and has helped us with many family matters and we study out of a lovely book, called the Family Happiness Book that ties scriptures into making the family stronger. We do not believe in war or anything that hurts someone else and believe the key to true happiness is a sincere devotion to Jehovah God through Jesus, that was Jesus’ only other commandment other then love the one you may hate.

The standard for what is orthodox should be Gods word and Jehovah Witnesses stick to the Bible very strickly and encourages their members to read it daily, something other facets of religion choose to ignore.

Their worship is a way of life not a ritual, which would be a cult. There are 6,000,000 of them out there. Even though you didn’t come right directly and use the word cult, the reference was there with the brainwashing and I hope this helps you understand that they are the farthest things in my opinions from brainwashers, more or less people like me and your brother. tommy

 

[Loboto-Me]

Tommy,

He has been a witness for over 20 yrs, I think he believes that it’s working for him.

The strange thing is, he married a woman who had been raised in the religion. He began to study shortly before that. They had come to the door while his first marriage was breaking down. Witnesses seem to get most of their new candidates while they are having a difficult time in their lives. We as his family saw the steps that he went through to get where he is now. He felt “loved” while he was hurting… he was the first in the family of 9 siblings to be getting divorced therefore felt uncomfortable in our presence rather than turning to us, he turned to the witnesses. A tactic I abhor!

They gathered around him, made false friends with him, always being there when he had to face his soon to be ex wife, or if not, always being there to advise him after having seen her. You see, she saw the witnesses as they were, and she slowly saw the breakdown of her marriage as he was seeing a married woman without sleeping with her. There was just no chance of repairing the first marriage because of this.

They got married, and shunned (they were being adulterers)… moved to the other end of the country, and were re instated in the “Truth” out there. We saw a huge change in him, he was sneakier than he’d ever been (he’s sneaky by default… they used to call him sneaky sam as a kid). He continued to smoke behind the backs of the witnesses, and to “look” at other women, and be an upstanding witness in the presence of other witnesses.

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[Loboto-Me]

In the house, it was his way or the highway… because he’s the head of the family. The kids were being smacked even at the age of 18 yrs old. Although he had married a strong and very intelligent woman and they were to councel with each other over household things and he was to have the last word, it always ended up that it was HIS way all the time.

How do we know this if he was at the end of the country? We moved out there shortly after they did, and so did my parents in law.

At one point, my husband and my brother in law were working out of town… they would come home on weekends. My husband would come and tell me the wild going on of his brother. A married man going to the bar at night and coming home at 3:00 AM. Coming back to the trailer where my husband was sleeping and my brother in law talking about the naked girls in the hot tub with a non-JW that came along with them. My brother in law disappearing for a few hours with bar bunnies while out with my husband. He was and still is a cheating womanizer.

His wife worshipped the ground my B-I-L walked on, he could do no wrong. Did we tell her about my B-I-L’s behaviour? Nope, we were not going to help break up this marriage, we knew he was doing a good job of it on his own. Eventually the marriage broke down (about 5 yrs after the out of town incidences).

It broke down not because of his misbehaviours, but because he saw that she was talking on the internet to another man. She had been confiding in this man about her marital problems and even met him a few times for lunch. When she said that she’d never slept with this man, my husband and I believed her as she had proven herself to be extremely trustworthy and honest in the 13 yrs we had known her.

The JW’s took my brother in law’s side and she was shunned by her lifelong religion, and lost the network of support she’d lived all her life with, including her 3 boys from her first marriage that they were raising. Adultery is a serious thing (as it should be) the problem is, my brother in law had been doing worse all this time and wasn’t caught, my sister in law was talking to a man, but they didn’t believe her when she said it never got to the sexual point, and was therefore shunned. The funny thing is, my brother in law during this time came to visit us because he was depressed over the marriage breakdown (we had moved a province over by this time). The divorce wasn’t final, but he kept talking about a woman who had a horse ranch ect ect, and he kept calling her on his cell phone while he was visiting us. Guess what, he married this woman 6 months after the divorce was finalized… now don’t tell me that they hadn’t been seeing each other during the 2nd marriage.

The point I’m making is you say they are the cleanest cut people, they are honest and shunning keeps out the rif-raf. As much as I love my Brother In Law, he is riff-raff, and the JW’s protect who they want to protect. My B-I-L has lots of money, and “gives” a load to the Hall through free work (he’s a contractor)… he’s become very influencial. My ex sister in law, couldn’t compete with that even if she wanted to… now you tell me it’s not all about politics and money in this “religion”??

We’ve watched carefully for over 20 years, we’ve seen it go on from the outside, those on the inside don’t see what’s happening to them. My brother in law is a boaster, and a talker, he has let much slip out of his mouth without him even noticing. You’d wonder why he hasn’t let us go as a family? Well it’s because of this trait he has… he loves to talk, we let him talk. We are a not a pushy family but are an EXTREMELY close family, he couldn’t let that completely go, and his second wife encouraged his relationship with us as she saw the love that we had for each other and our families.

Don’t fool yourself (or let yourself be fooled) by what a “religion” looks like. You can never tell a book by its cover is the saying, and it’s true.

Oh, BTW, He’s now divorced to the last woman (this one lasted only a few years) He never did tell us why they were divorcing (actually come to think of it, he never did bring her along so his family could meet her… married quietly, and never introduced except over the phone… very strange)