Reverence vs Rights

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi,

I am definitely not anti-kneeling, and have attended very uplifting Masses where the congregation knelt for HC, and I did kneel at those Masses. I do agree that if there are a number of communicants who desire to kneel, the priest should consider their request and try to make provisions. I do not agree that a lone communicant should demand the right to kneel during a communion procession, even at the end of the line.

Do any of those in favor of kneeling, especially those who claim their “right” to kneel is upheld by a letter, understand the right of a priest celebrant to request an uninterrupted Communion procession?

How do you feel about a priest who feels that he does have the right to request a communicant to stand, especially after he has explained the reasons for the norm?

Lux

 

[nightwalker]

Do any of those in favor of kneeling, especially those who claim their “right” to kneel is upheld by a letter, understand the right of a priest celebrant to request an uninterrupted Communion procession?
*
How do you feel about a priest who feels that he does have the right to request a communicant to stand, especially after he has explained the reasons for the norm*

**1)**Where is this alleged right supported? The right to kneel has been established by the CDW&DS, as is shown every few hours on this site. I have seen no right, particularly not of the celebrant, to a “uninterrupted Communion procession”.

2) The priest is free to request, but that is all. He cannot threaten, accuse, or otherwise suggest that the communicant is in the wrong.

 

[Spirithound]

Do any of those in favor of kneeling, especially those who claim their “right” to kneel is upheld by a letter, understand the right of a priest celebrant to request an uninterrupted Communion procession?

How do you feel about a priest who feels that he does have the right to request a communicant to stand, especially after he has explained the reasons for the norm?

From a pragmatic point of view, a person kneeling to receive Holy Communion is only going to prolong the process by what, 10-20 seconds? Perhaps some people could do with a little slow-down. No need to rush for the exit!

 

[PKinsale]

I wonder whether part of the problem is that the reception of Communion is now seen by some as a sort of formal “procession” on the part of recipients. Taken to its rubrical and legal extreme, it being a procession would automatically require similarity of gesture and posture.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

**1)**Where is this alleged right supported? The right to kneel has been established by the CDW&DS, as is shown every few hours on this site. I have seen no right, particularly not of the celebrant, to a “uninterrupted Communion procession”.

GIRM 43. …

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
44. Among gestures included are also actions and processions: of the priest going with the deacon and ministers to the altar; of the deacon carrying the Evangeliary or Book of the Gospels to the ambo before the proclamation of the Gospel; of the faithful presenting the gifts and coming forward to receive Communion. It is appropriate that actions and processions of this sort be carried out with decorum while the chants proper to them occur, in keeping with the norms prescribed for each.

While genuflecting and kneeling are certainly reverent gestures, they are definitely not appropriate during a procession. Bowing and processing are also very reverent.

Lux

 

[TorontoCatholic]

While genuflecting and kneeling are certainly reverent gestures, they are definitely not appropriate during a procession. Bowing and processing are also very reverent.

Lux

1. Genuflecting is appropriate during processions. When the procession at the beginning of Mass reaches the front, all are supposed to genuflect to the tabernacle. And immediately before the procession exits at the end of Mass, all in the procession are supposed to genuflect again to the tabernacle.
2. Going up for communion is not a procession.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi,

The GIRM disagrees with you.

44…coming forward to receive Communion. It is appropriate that actions and processions of this sort be carried out with decorum while the chants proper to them occur, in keeping with the norms prescribed for each.

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Also, the genuflections you mention are part of the procession, although I have never seen them used. And these are only if the tabernacle is not located in the sanctuary.

A genuflection is not part of the communion procession, and kneeling is never part of any procession.

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I do not have time now, but I will try to get the references for the communion procession later.

Lux

 

[Fitswimmer]

At the daily Mass I attend, it is very easy to genuflect as we approach the Priest to receive Communion and a few of us do it with no disruption to anyone else. I’m not sure how it would work at the weekend masses because it’s much more crowded. I usually go to an EF Mass on the weekends, so I get to receive on my knees every Sunday!

 

[PKinsale]

Well, Lux, there was a time when a triple kneeling was perfromed in the Good Friday procession to reverence the cross. And it is also used in other processions, such as the Stations of the Cross.

And perhaps I am being snarky, but the GIRM here also mentioned chant as a part of the procession. Most parishes avoid chant because it is too old-fashioned.

 

[fix]

Hi,

I am definitely not anti-kneeling, and have attended very uplifting Masses where the congregation knelt for HC, and I did kneel at those Masses. I do agree that if there are a number of communicants who desire to kneel, the priest should consider their request and try to make provisions. I do not agree that a lone communicant should demand the right to kneel during a communion procession, even at the end of the line.

Do any of those in favor of kneeling, especially those who claim their “right” to kneel is upheld by a letter, understand the right of a priest celebrant to request an uninterrupted Communion procession?

How do you feel about a priest who feels that he does have the right to request a communicant to stand, especially after he has explained the reasons for the norm?

Lux

Actually the letter is an explanation from the appropriate authority in the Church on this matter.

Why would a lower authority claim they can disregard the higher authority?

Why is there so much debate about whether some person may kneel to receive our Lord? It seems there is a deeper issue going on here. Certainly, we should not mind if one kneels.

 

[EasterJoy]

Hi,

I am definitely not anti-kneeling, and have attended very uplifting Masses where the congregation knelt for HC, and I did kneel at those Masses. I do agree that if there are a number of communicants who desire to kneel, the priest should consider their request and try to make provisions. I do not agree that a lone communicant should demand the right to kneel during a communion procession, even at the end of the line.

Do any of those in favor of kneeling, especially those who claim their “right” to kneel is upheld by a letter, understand the right of a priest celebrant to request an uninterrupted Communion procession?

How do you feel about a priest who feels that he does have the right to request a communicant to stand, especially after he has explained the reasons for the norm?

Lux

Our Holy Father is very much in favor of receiving on the tongue while kneeling. That is not the way I receive, but I would not dream of placing an obstacle in the way of those who desire to comply with that. My understanding is that receiving on the tongue has been declared by the Holy See to be a right of the faithful, besides. As in truly their right, not a “right”, since using quotes could wrongly imply “so-called”.

Having said that, I think that norms concerning what priests “should” do is the perogative of their bishops to decide, assuming of course that their bishops are faithful to Rome. What I think is entirely besides the point.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Well, Lux, there was a time when a triple kneeling was perfromed in the Good Friday procession to reverence the cross. And it is also used in other processions, such as the Stations of the Cross.

Good Friday does not include a Mass. Stations of the Cross are not part of Mass. So the rubrics that apply to Mass would not apply to either of these situations.

 

[palmas85]

As this type of thread comes up from time to time, I will again reise the question that I have raised repeatedly over the years and never yet received an answer that really makes any sense at all.

Why did the Church go to receiving while standing anyway? I’ve heard all the normal responses ie:

It was done that way in the early Church
Why, it’s the way its done in the east and always has been.
We approach Christ as an adult not a child that needs to be fed
We are the ressurection people and we stand for that reason
etc etc.

But I have yet to hear an answer that really addresses why the Church now permits this way of reception.

maybe one of our more progressive posters can en;ighten me as to why.

 

[PKinsale]

Lux:

What if a priest asks you to all hold hands during the Our Father? Or raise your right hand in blessing (as a group) over someone? Are we to do so, under your interpretation of GIRM 43?

 

[EasterJoy]

As this type of thread comes up from time to time, I will again reise the question that I have raised repeatedly over the years and never yet received an answer that really makes any sense at all.

Why did the Church go to receiving while standing anyway? I’ve heard all the normal responses ie:

It was done that way in the early Church
Why it’s the way its done in the east
I choose to approach Christ as an adult not a child that needs to be fed
We are the ressurection people and we stand for that reason
etc etc.

But I have yet to hear an answer that really addresses why the Church now permits this way of reception.

maybe one of our more progressive posters can en;ighten me as to why.

From Day 1, all rubrics and norms have been made the according to discernment of the local bishop, in obedience to the discernment of the Magesterium.

Our duty to obedience to our bishops is not subject to our whims. I stand to receive because that has been declared the norm in my diocese, a norm which has been approved by Rome. Where there are options allowed, I consider them in light of explanations such as you have raised, I sometimes do find such explanations edifying, but really, all that is commentary.

 

[PKinsale]

Good Friday does not include a Mass. Stations of the Cross are not part of Mass. So the rubrics that apply to Mass would not apply to either of these situations.

I believe the issue as presented was more the idea that certain gestures and postures are not appropriate to processions in general.

 

[Cat]

As this type of thread comes up from time to time, I will again reise the question that I have raised repeatedly over the years and never yet received an answer that really makes any sense at all.

Why did the Church go to receiving while standing anyway? I’ve heard all the normal responses ie:

It was done that way in the early Church
Why, it’s the way its done in the east and always has been.
We approach Christ as an adult not a child that needs to be fed
We are the ressurection people and we stand for that reason
etc etc.

But I have yet to hear an answer that really addresses why the Church now permits this way of reception.

maybe one of our more progressive posters can en;ighten me as to why.

I don’t know the definitive answer to your question.

I’m a fairly new Catholic (2004).

But I am grateful that the Church allows us to receive Holy Communion standing because I cannot kneel easily.

I have to have something (or someone) to lean very heavily on to lower myself and I have to have something (or someone) to pull myself back up again, and it is quite a production! Comical, if it didn’t hurt so much and scare me so much. Occasionally I lose my balance and fall. This is really scary for me.

I don’t know why I even bother to try to kneel in places like Adoration Chapel because I usually can’t stay kneeling for more than a few minutes before it gets too painful. And that’s with a cushioned kneeler. I just want to be like everyone else and be “reverent.” I don’t want to look like a slacker.

This last weekend I attended Catholic Family Conference in Elgin, IL, and during the Communion, we saw people receive Holy Communion all kinds of ways–standing and in the hand, on their knees and on the tongue, standing and on the tongue, seated in a wheelchair.

As I watched those young people (and some older people!) just drop to their knees on that hard floor and then just raise themselves right back up again with no need to pull themselves up by their hands–I just marvelled at how strong and limber they are! I felt like I was watching the Olympics. I couldn’t believe that people can just do that without any effort, without having to hang onto the priest and have him pull them back up again! And many of the women were wearing dresses and they still knelt without any effort at all.

I just wanted to cry over what I can no longer do. When I was young and uninjured, I could kneel, too (although I have always had painful knees, even when I was in high school and in great physical shape with no extra fat).

I’m glad for those who can kneel, I really am. I glad for anyone who can receive the Eucharist. I am glad that I can at least walk forward and receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. I would be really scared to receive Him on my tongue because sometimes I lose my balance and I’m afraid that would happen and He would fall out of my mouth.

So maybe–maybe in their kindness, that’s why the Catholic Church decided to allow people to receive the Holy Communion standing. It makes all of the people who can’t kneel (and there are lots of us) feel less like misfits or gimps or cripples. It helps me feel like part of the family instead of a poor relation.

I am reverent in my heart. Someone mentioned before that posture for receiving Holy Communion is a “practice” not a doctrine, and therefore, can be changed by the Church. Why can’t everyone just accept that and stop harping on the posture?

 

[palmas85]

From Day 1, all rubrics and norms have been made the according to discernment of the local bishop, in obedience to the discernment of the Magesterium.

Our duty to obedience to our bishops is not subject to our whims. I stand to receive because that has been declared the norm in my diocese, a norm which has been approved by Rome. Where there are options allowed, I consider them in light of explanations such as you have raised, I sometimes do find such explanations edifying, but really, all that is commentary.

You see that is in part what I mean. No one and I mean no one has ever come forth with a reason WHY it is allowed. The answer that you gave here skirted the question completely. I in no way question the authority of the Church to specify posture for any activity. I would just once to hear a coherent reason WHY it is permitted, encouraged and looked upon with favor by so many.

Thats all