Reverence vs Rights

[palmas85]

I don’t know the definitive answer to your question.

I’m a fairly new Catholic (2004).

But I am grateful that the Church allows us to receive Holy Communion standing because I cannot kneel easily.

I have to have something (or someone) to lean very heavily on to lower myself and I have to have something (or someone) to pull myself back up again, and it is quite a production! Comical, if it didn’t hurt so much and scare me so much. Occasionally I lose my balance and fall. This is really scary for me.

I don’t know why I even bother to try to kneel in places like Adoration Chapel because I usually can’t stay kneeling for more than a few minutes before it gets too painful. And that’s with a cushioned kneeler. I just want to be like everyone else and be “reverent.” I don’t want to look like a slacker.

This last weekend I attended Catholic Family Conference in Elgin, IL, and during the Communion, we saw people receive Holy Communion all kinds of ways–standing and in the hand, on their knees and on the tongue, standing and on the tongue, seated in a wheelchair.

As I watched those young people (and some older people!) just drop to their knees on that hard floor and then just raise themselves right back up again with no need to pull themselves up by their hands–I just marvelled at how strong and limber they are! I felt like I was watching the Olympics. I couldn’t believe that people can just do that without any effort, without having to hang onto the priest and have him pull them back up again! And many of the women were wearing dresses and they still knelt without any effort at all.

I just wanted to cry over what I can no longer do. When I was young and uninjured, I could kneel, too (although I have always had painful knees, even when I was in high school and in great physical shape with no extra fat).

I’m glad for those who can kneel, I really am. I glad for anyone who can receive the Eucharist. I am glad that I can at least walk forward and receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. I would be really scared to receive Him on my tongue because sometimes I lose my balance and I’m afraid that would happen and He would fall out of my mouth.

So maybe–maybe in their kindness, that’s why the Catholic Church decided to allow people to receive the Holy Communion standing. It makes all of the people who can’t kneel (and there are lots of us) feel less like misfits or gimps or cripples. It helps me feel like part of the family instead of a poor relation.

I am reverent in my heart. Someone mentioned before that posture for receiving Holy Communion is a “practice” not a doctrine, and therefore, can be changed by the Church. Why can’t everyone just accept that and stop harping on the posture?

In the old days, the bad old days pre Vatican II and the new springtime:thumbsup: , if you couldn’t kneel, you stood at the communion rail and guess what??? Ready for this one

**
You would receive standing**

Pretty amazing huh?? Bet you didn’t know that one did you? Thats OK, a lot of progressives want to perpetuate a lot of stereotypes about the traditional Mass in the old days. A lot of people stood due to an inability to kneel, although most would make the effort if they could, and offer up the pain to Christ. Guess those days are gone forever. huh?

I served many a Mass at a Chapel at a home for elderly and infirm sisters and it was amazing to see these elderly women try to kneel until age and infirmity took over and they either received standing or in their wheelchairs, Ditto for the retired and infirm Priests.

Yes some people received standing, but there were no lectures, no harangues, no pastoral speeches about the norm of kneeling, no getting refused Holy Communion, nobody pointing fingers and whispering that you were a heretic or schismatic or disobedient to the Church or anything like that at all… You received standing, on the tongue and went about your business.

Lets just all be thankful that in the modern progressive era, conformity and communal posture counts more than devotion:thumbsup:

 

[ethelzguy]

You see that is in part what I mean. No one and I mean no one has ever come forth with a reason WHY it is allowed. Thats all

Maybe priests were getting bad backs from all that stooping over at Communion rails?

Anyone got a better reason?

 

[Cat]

In the old days, the bad old days pre Vatican II and the new springtime:thumbsup: , if you couldn’t kneel, you stood at the communion rail and guess what??? Ready for this one

**
You would receive standing**

Pretty amazing huh?? Bet you didn’t know that one did you? Thats OK, a lot of progressives want to perpetuate a lot of stereotypes about the traditional Mass in the old days. A lot of people stood due to an inability to kneel, although most would make the effort if they could, and offer up the pain to Christ. Guess those days are gone forever. huh?

I served many a Mass at a Chapel at a home for elderly and infirm sisters and it was amazing to see these elderly women try to kneel until age and infirmity took over and they either received standing or in their wheelchairs, Ditto for the retired and infirm Priests.

Yes some people received standing, but there were no lectures, no harangues, no pastoral speeches about the norm of kneeling, no getting refused Holy Communion, nobody pointing fingers and whispering that you were a heretic or schismatic or disobedient to the Church or anything like that at all… You received standing, on the tongue and went about your business.

Lets just all be thankful that in the modern progressive era, conformity and communal posture counts more than devotion:thumbsup:

palmas85, yes, I knew that in the “old days,” those who could not kneel stood. Please forgive me if it appeared that I was trying to perpetuate some falsehood about the Traditional Mass. I assure you that I wasn’t trying to do that at all.

All I was trying to say is that by allowing people to stand–all people, not just those who are infirm–it makes the “infirm ones” like me equal to the “un-infirm ones.” It’s nice to feel like everyone else instead of being the “exception” to the norm.

And at the Conference this weekend, even though we held Mass in a gymnasium, there was no problem at all with so many different ways of receiving Holy Communion. No one crashed into anyone, no one tripped over anyone. Everyone was welcome, no one was refused Holy Communion or told to stand up and take it on the hand like a normal Catholic.

It was nice, very nice and “family-like.”

If it happened like this all the time in parishes, we would all get used to looking out for the person ahead of us and not trip over them if they suddenly genuflect or kneel. Kind of an illustration of real-life–we should all be looking out for each other all the time, shouldn’t we?

There were problems when we returned to the bleachers–since there were no ushers, no one directed traffic, and some people went left and some went right and when we all tried to return to our seats, we bumped into all the people trying to go the opposite way. A little dangerous, but at least there were railings in the bleachers to hang on to. I’ve been in some arenas that don’t have any railings–I think that should be OUTLAWED when building stadiums! Railings are just a good idea, right?!

 

[EasterJoy]

palmas85, yes, I knew that in the “old days,” those who could not kneel stood. Please forgive me if it appeared that I was trying to perpetuate some falsehood about the Traditional Mass. I assure you that I wasn’t trying to do that at all.

All I was trying to say is that by allowing people to stand–all people, not just those who are infirm–it makes the “infirm ones” like me equal to the “un-infirm ones.” It’s nice to feel like everyone else instead of being the “exception” to the norm.

Hey, and you don’t get the evil eye, like you do when you look OK but still need one of those blue wheelchair hangtags for your car!

Yes, I’m joking, but it would be nice if those who knelt didn’t feel like “exceptions”, either, though, don’t you think? The less attention we feel we are drawing to ourselves when receiving Holy Communion, the better. All ministers of Holy Communion should be attentive to and solicitous of that, I think. We should try to let everyone practice the greatest reverence they feel they can, without violating their hope to remain inconspicuous. If someone needs an education or a conversation, the pastor can take care of it in private.

Having said that, I am short and I know priests who are well over six feet tall. If I had a preference for kneeling, I would be inclined to take their height and the lack of a paten into account, and stay on my feet. It is just like when there is a choice between on the tongue and in the hand and one is wearing lipstick. I think that changes things. That’s just me, though.

I teach preparation for Holy Communion. When I teach kids the proper way to receive on the tongue, I feel a need to warn them that some EMHCs and even some priests might look a little taken aback, and that the kids should just patiently hold their mouth open and not feel self-conscious about it. I also point out that receiving on the tongue is an excellent choice if they are at all concerned about dropping the host or missing a particle in their hands. I think they need to learn both ways, though, so that they can be gracious under every circumstance, no matter how gracious or accomodating anyone else is. Knowledge and practice give them that choice.

 

[palmas85]

Maybe priests were getting bad backs from all that stooping over at Communion rails?

Anyone got a better reason?

Like I said, no one has ever given a good logical reason. I’ve been posting for a while now and asked this same question more than a few times. There is never a good reason or much any reason at all for that matter. . And, with that in mind, I have come to believe that there was no real good reason It was a change that they made for the sheer sake of change itself. . You know make the laity think that something had changed when it really hadn’t.

 

[PKinsale]

Like I said, no one has ever given a good logical reason. I’ve been posting for a while now and asked this same question more than a few times. There is never a good reason or much any reason at all for that matter. . And, with that in mind, I have come to believe that there was no real good reason It was a change that they made for the sheer sake of change itself. . You know make the laity think that something had changed when it really hadn’t.

A lot of the liturgical changes were carried out without proper explanation or justification, or as they say, “catechesis.”

 

[Badaliyyah]

Why did the Church go to receiving while standing anyway?

I suppose I would ask that question differently? When did the Latins start kneeling in the first place? And why?

salaam.

 

[PKinsale]

Interestingly, this post appeared on one of my favorite blogs today:

thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2008/07/manner-of-receiving-holy-eucharist-some.html

The Manner of Receiving Holy Eucharist: Some Considerations

The question of how communion is received has been very much in mind recently, between the Pope’s new custom of his communicants receiving kneeling and upon the tongue, and with the recent words, and current United States visit, of Bishop Athanasius Schneider, who has likewise spoken on this subject. Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith, the Secretary to the CDW, has also raised this matter in the past short while. …

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Interestingly, this post appeared on one of my favorite blogs today:

thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2008/07/manner-of-receiving-holy-eucharist-some.html

The Manner of Receiving Holy Eucharist: Some Considerations

The question of how communion is received has been very much in mind recently, between the Pope’s new custom of his communicants receiving kneeling and upon the tongue, and with the recent words, and current United States visit, of Bishop Athanasius Schneider, who has likewise spoken on this subject. Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith, the Secretary to the CDW, has also raised this matter in the past short while. …

Why do so many of you who favor kneeling lump it in with the hand or tongue question? This has nothing to do with my original question. Hand or tongue is a legitimate option in the US, and none of those who favor standing when there are no provisions for kneeling have questioned the option to receive on the tongue.

Also most of us do not have a problem with kneeling when the priest does not feel it is distracting or dangerous.

I feel kneeling is a poor choice (even though it is allowed) when the communicant has been instructed and is requested to stand, and act in conformity with the rest of the congregation.

Lux

 

[PKinsale]

Why do so many of you who favor kneeling lump it in with the hand or tongue question? This has nothing to do with my original question. Hand or tongue is a legitimate option in the US, and none of those who favor standing when there are no provisions for kneeling have questioned the option to receive on the tongue.

Also most of us do not have a problem with kneeling when the priest does not feel it is distracting or dangerous.

I feel kneeling is a poor choice (even though it is allowed) when the communicant has been instructed and is requested to stand, and act in conformity with the rest of the congregation.

Lux

Essentially, the two go hand in hand. I cannot tell you how many times a priest or EMHC has seemed shocked and confused when I present my tongue. And this article is not about hand v. tongue per se.

And when is kneeling “dangerous”?

 

[nightwalker]

**Why do so many of you who favor kneeling lump it in with the hand or tongue question? This has nothing to do with my original question. Hand or tongue is a legitimate option in the US, **and none of those who favor standing when there are no provisions for kneeling have questioned the option to receive on the tongue.

Also most of us do not have a problem with kneeling when the priest does not feel it is distracting or dangerous.

I feel kneeling is a poor choice (even though it is allowed) when the communicant has been instructed and is requested to stand, and act in conformity with the rest of the congregation.

Lux

You answered your own question, they get lumped together because they are two sets of licit options. You can choose (for yourself) whether to stand or kneel, and whether to receive in the hand or on the tongue. Your insistence that those who kneel are disobedient in adhering to their right to receive in a way that seems more reverent to them (skirting for the moment the issue of whether it is more reverent), or some how exalting themselves, is incorrect (as has been shown ad nauseam).

Questioning receiving on the tongue would be foolish, because unlike standing or kneeling (co-existing local and universal norms), receiving on the tongue is the universal norm and in the hand permitted by indult.

It is irrelevant, btw, whether it is a procession, as kneeling is explicitly allowed for by the Church, and the end of the journey is more important than the journey itself.

 

[Cat]

Has anyone ever witnessed or been personally involved in a situation where someone knelt in the Communion procession and someone else tripped over them?

I wonder sometimes if we worry about things unnecessarily. Usually all of us are walking so slowly and contemplatively, but our eyes are still open and we’re wide awake while we are processing to the front. It just seems that we would probably not trip. It didn’t happen last weekend.

But I guess if anyone did trip during the Communion procession, it would be pretty awful. Several months ago I was at the vet’s office, and someone’s big dog bumped up against me, and I nearly fell, and I really gave those people a piece of my mind about keeping their animal away from other people. The near-fall scared me, you see. I’m very afraid of falling. (Funny that my husband and kids are figure skaters.)

 

[ethelzguy]

Has anyone ever witnessed or been personally involved in a situation where someone knelt in the Communion procession and someone else tripped over them?

Yes, I have. Most people I observe, are looking at the priest, deacon, or EMHC…or the tabernacle on the altar, or the crucifix hanging over the altar.

They don’t generally stare at the person in front of them (unless it’s some male admiring at an attractive lass).

But yes, three or four times, I’ve seen someone hit their knees at the front of the line, only to have someone stumble over them.

 

[rwoehmke]

Yes, I have. Most people I observe, are looking at the priest, deacon, or EMHC…or the tabernacle on the altar, or the crucifix hanging over the altar.

They don’t generally stare at the person in front of them (unless it’s some male admiring at an attractive lass).

But yes, three or four times, I’ve seen someone hit their knees at the front of the line, only to have someone stumble over them.

I’ve had it happen to me. Those that must be different and flop down on their knees should wear one of those reflective triangles on their backs like the Amish have on their buggies and wagons. It is kind of difficult to be reverent and cautiously watching out for danger at the same time. I am blessed because it has gotten to the point where I can no longer process to the front and I receive sitting in one of the back pews along with some others who are disabled.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

This is from an article on the Communion Procession from the USCCB

It is difficult for some of us to embrace this emphasis on Mass as the action of a community rather than an individual act of my own faith and piety, but it is important that we make every effort to do so. Christ himself at the Last Supper pleaded with his Father: Holy Father, keep those you have given me true to your name, so that they may be one like us … Father may they be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you … Jn. 17: 11; 21. Baptism has joined us to Christ and to one another as the vine and its branches. The life of Christ, the Holy Spirit, animates each of us individually, and all of us corporately and guides us together in our efforts to become one in Christ.

Finally, the fact that the Communion Procession is a profoundly religious action tells us something about the way in which we should participate in this procession. We are the Body of Christ, moving forward to receive the Christ who makes us one with himself and with one another. Our procession should move with dignity; our bearing should be that of those who know they have been redeemed by Christ and are coming to receive their God!

The new edition of the General Instruction asks the Conference of Bishops in each country to determine the posture to be used for the reception of Communion and the act of reverence to be made by each person as he or she receives Communion. The Conference of Bishops of the United States has determined that in this country Communion will be received standing and that a bow will be the act of reverence made by those receiving. These norms may require some adjustment on the part of those who have been used to other practices, however the significance of unity in posture and gesture as a symbol of our unity as members of the one body of Christ should be the governing factor in our own actions.

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Here’s an article on Processions from the Catholic Dictionary

Processions
Sacred functions in which clergy and people go in parade from one sacred place to another. They may be conducted entirely within the church or may take place outside the confines of the building; even from one church to another. Their object is public supplication to God for some determined favor. They. stir the faith of the pious to acts of piety; procure for participants great blessings from God; and give thanks to the Almighty for His favors. Ordinary processions are those assigned to certain days, as those on Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and Corpus Christi, or to certain functions as at the consecration of churches. They are prescribed either by the liturgy, the Code of Canon Law, or decree of the bishop for a determined public cause, yet recurring by custom. Extraordinary processions are ordered in certain calamities or as thanksgiving for some signal favor. The decreeing of these extraordinary processions is by the bishop or at least with his sanction. The Roman Ritual admonishes the priests in charge of processions, either ordinary or extraordinary, duly to instruct the faithful of the time at which the procession is to be held and the order to be followed in it. The Ritual likewise gives the order of precedence for those taking part in the function. The cross, emblem of faith, should always be at the head of the procession. Other banners may be used if they are ornamented with religious designs or pictures. Processions of the Blessed Sacrament are a popular expression of devotion to the Blessed Sacrament.

Lux

 

[PKinsale]

Lux, thank you for these citations. I wonder to what extent the bulletin is binding in the case of the Vatican clearly stating that Catholics can kneel to receive. it only causes sscandal when there is someone who is scadalized by reverence, and I do not want to see reappearances of videos of bishops pulling communicants off their knees, as Bishop Brown of Orange County did.

It is interesting that when a percevied liturgical abuse is toward the direction of traditional acts of reverence such as kneeling, some Catholics are adamant about enforcing the letter of the law, but when it comes to perceived abuses that move aay from tradition, there is silence. I cannot tell you how many times I have noticed Catholics receive in the hand incorrectly, often doing a one-hand-flip while carrying a toddler. That is a far worse proboem than whether someone chooses to kneel.

Another example: Some US bishops are adamant about priests who pray the Extraordinary Form of the Mass following the rubrics exactly and knowing Latin as well as Cicero, while at the same allowing all sorts of deviation and innovation when it comes to the Ordinary Form.

At any rate, I think there is an impasse with this discussion thread, which appears to be a repeat of many others on this forum.

 

[fix]

But yes, three or four times, I’ve seen someone hit their knees at the front of the line, only to have someone stumble over them.

I have seen this line of argument before and I find it peculiar. Why are Catholics “stumbling” over other Catholics that kneel? Is kneeling now foreign to so many?

Is the mass to be regulated so rigidly that kneeling is perceived as a problem?

The problem is not people who kneel. The problem is some other thing.

 

[ethelzguy]

I have seen this line of argument before and I find it peculiar. Why are Catholics “stumbling” over other Catholics that kneel? Is kneeling now foreign to so many?

Is the mass to be regulated so rigidly that kneeling is perceived as a problem?

The problem is not people who kneel. The problem is some other thing.

Because they’re focused on receiving the Eucharist instead of what some non-conformist in front of them is doing?

When everybody is together, things work just fine. It’s when somebody feels the need to make a statement, that things go awry.

 

[LRThunder]

Because they’re focused on receiving the Eucharist instead of what some non-conformist in front of them is doing?

When everybody is together, things work just fine. It’s when somebody feels the need to make a statement, that things go awry.

Why do you assume someone who wants to kneel is feeling the need to make a statement? Are you trying to judge their motives?